Kaio-Ken Questions

[Bananalized III]

Heya! This is going to be my first forum on this website, and I have 2 questions that I really want to be answered.

1. If a person could handle it, could they use the Kaio-Ken to near infinite amounts?

2. Could Goku have achieved a "Full-Power Kaio-Ken" form, similar in theory to the Full-Power Super Saiyan form?

[Saiga]

There's never been an established limit, so I guess hypothetically it can go as high as the user can handle it. But I don't think Goku could achieve a "Full Power Kaio-ken" because it is by design a momentary power-up.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think Kaioken x20 is as far as it goes. Based on what Iv'e gathered on the technique, it would seem that Kaioken is a technique designed to push ones power beyond their limits. Since Goku has never bothered taking it further I would imagine Goku can only go as far as 20x his current limits.

[Fox666]

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[DBZGTKOSDH]

1. If a person could handle it, could they use the Kaio-Ken to near infinite amounts?

I don't think Kaio-ken can go beyond x20. Against Vegeta, Goku risked and used Kaio-ken x3 & x4, and almost used Kaio-ken x5. Kaio-ken x3 alone heavily damaged Goku's body. Goku knew that this would be the result, and took the risk.
Against Freeza though, Goku used Kaio-ken x20. It did cause him some damage, but not as much as Kaio-ken x3 in the past. Not only that, but Kaio-ken x20 was useless against Freeza, while Kaio-ken x3 wasn't against Vegeta back then. So, why didn't Goku take the risk again, and didn't raise Kaio-ken at dangerous levels that could potentially surpass Freeza, like he did against Vegeta? Because Kaio-ken can't go beyond x20, IMO.

2. Could Goku have achieved a "Full-Power Kaio-Ken" form, similar in theory to the Full-Power Super Saiyan form?

I don't think so. Kaio-ken is a technique, not a form.

[Beji]

I don't know if this has been answered but if Goku used super Kaioken like he did against Pikkon in the anime.. Doesn't that mean he would have been stronger than a Super Saiyan 3...? since Super Kaioken(50)(20) compared to SSJ3(50)(2)(4) based on multipliers..Kaioken doubles the multiplier of a SSJ3. temporarily of course.. and We don't know what multiplier he used for when he used it while in SSJ either. And it was anime only.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't know if this has been answered but if Goku used super Kaioken like he did against Paikuhan in the anime.. Doesn't that mean he would have been stronger than a Super Saiyan 3...? since Super Kaioken(50)(20) compared to SSJ3(50)(2)(4) based on multipliers..Kaioken doubles the multiplier of a SSJ3. temporarily of course.. and We don't know what multiplier he used for when he used it while in SSJ either. And it was anime only.

We don't know what level of Kaio-ken Goku used. Presumably, it was normal Kaio-ken + Super Saiyan (2x50=100=SS2 power)

[Fox666]

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[Hitiro]

The problem with Kaio-ken which the SSJ transformations address is the burden on the body. Now Goku can train for as long as he want on getting the Kaio-ken up to higher levels but there is still a burden on his body. And we have no idea if its possible to lower that anymore than it has to accommodate for a x20 version of the Kaio-ken. The SSJ transformations however change the Saiyan's body in some way to cope with enormous potential the form unlocks. They physically alter their bodies so they have no stress on them like the Kaio-ken technique does. But in exchange they need energy to maintain the transformation so that could be seen as the alternative form of stress on their bodies.

[Duo]

Supposedly Goku used a Kaio-ken times 100 in the 4th movie, so I guess the Super Kaio-ken should be more than that... which makes it at least stronger than a Super Saiyan 2.

All extra source material just refers to that thing Goku did in Movie 4 as a "False Super Saiyan" or something of that sort. No Kaio-ken about it that I'm aware of.

Really, there is no way to know how the Kaio-ken would work or what it's limits are. We know how far a Saiyan of a certain power level can take it and that's about it. Maybe it could have been used to greater degree than twentyfold, but if it could go past the Super Saiyan transformation then we would have seen it again. Perhaps human fighters could have only used it for a power double, ala the original usage? There's no way to know, so all that remains is speculation.

[Hitiro]

All extra source material just refers to that thing Goku did in Movie 4 as a "False Super Saiyan" or something of that sort. No Kaio-ken about it that I'm aware of.

Really, there is no way to know how the Kaio-ken would work or what it's limits are. We know how far a Saiyan of a certain power level can take it and that's about it. Maybe it could have been used to greater degree than twentyfold, but if it could go past the Super Saiyan transformation then we would have seen it again. Perhaps human fighters could have only used it for a power double, ala the original usage? There's no way to know, so all that remains is speculation.

He used Kaioken after the false SSJ, he says Kaioken and a faded giant image of Piccolo is behind him(something to do with Piccolo giving his energy to him I guess).

[Duo]

All extra source material just refers to that thing Goku did in Movie 4 as a "False Super Saiyan" or something of that sort. No Kaio-ken about it that I'm aware of.

Really, there is no way to know how the Kaio-ken would work or what it's limits are. We know how far a Saiyan of a certain power level can take it and that's about it. Maybe it could have been used to greater degree than twentyfold, but if it could go past the Super Saiyan transformation then we would have seen it again. Perhaps human fighters could have only used it for a power double, ala the original usage? There's no way to know, so all that remains is speculation.

He used Kaioken after the false SSJ, he says Kaioken and a faded giant image of Piccolo is behind him(something to do with Piccolo giving his energy to him I guess).

Oh, that's right. Sometimes I forget there's things that happened in that movie besides Piccolo Daimao arc event repeats and a weird re-interpretation of Super Saiyan.

But anyway, what on earth indicates the one used there was a Kaio-ken x100?

[Kaboom]

But anyway, what on earth indicates the one used there was a Kaio-ken x100?

A blurb in an old magazine or guidebook or something of the sort. I can't remember the exact source, but discussion of it seems to have only happened fairly recently.

[Duo]

A blurb in an old magazine or guidebook or something of the sort. I can't remember the exact source, but discussion of it seems to have only happened fairly recently.

...and that's probably why I wasn't aware.

I still can't take the idea of it seriously. That movie is too riddled with weird stuff as is without throwing that in.

[Hitiro]

...and that's probably why I wasn't aware.

I still can't take the idea of it seriously. That movie is too riddled with weird stuff as is without throwing that in.

Referenced from: Kamikaze Pyro @ http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8390051&t=8329063 Who gives credit to Herms and Fox666.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Kaioken Hyakubai... I think that means Kaioken x100 since Hyaku is 100.

[Hitiro]

Not that I'm defending movie 4, but if it was Kaioken x100 then Goku wouldn't be anywhere near his base self at the end of the Namek arc. It has to be set before they go to Namek but after the Saiyan arc for Goku to have Kaioken but not have SSJ. For some reason Piccolo is alive but this is a movie so we can ignore any obvious plot problems because its not part of the original universe. Goku would only be just above his Saiyan arc self plus whatever energy piccolo gave him. Goku would need a powerlevel of 30,000 for him to be on par with his base-end-of-Namek self.

[hleV]

To me it seems that KKx10 is the best anyone could ever do freely (as freely as Goku did against Freeza), KKx20 only being available for a very short amount of time, and perhaps only usable once or twice before it starts destroying one's body.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

So, why didn't Goku take the risk again, and didn't raise Kaio-ken at dangerous levels that could potentially surpass Freeza, like he did against Vegeta? Because Kaio-ken can't go beyond x20, IMO.

Well, he basically did? He stated before that he could handle Kaiou-ken tenfold, so it can be assumed x10 replaced double Kaiou-ken; he struggled to raise Kaiou-ken x2 to three and four, so I imagine him raising it to Kaiou-ken x11 and 12 would be just as bad? 20 was an insane risk, most likely. I think he was just shooting in the dark with gambling on that; I don't think it was implying 20 the was limit.

And I could buy Gokuu doing Kaiou-ken x100 against Lord Slug; he got Piccolo's energy, so who knows how that would have affected him. Plus, it's way more power than even a Super Saiya-Jin and I don't see how else he could have made a hole through Lord Slug if he was weaker than his Super Saiya-Jin power if Slug supposedly powered up to counter-act Gokuu's Super Saiya-Jin power by becoming giant.

On another note, I think it's possible Kaiou-ken faded into obscurity, but was used by Gokuu in a lot of instances (we wouldn't be able to tell with the SSJ and Kaiou-ken auras being colourless in the manga;) it would explain how they could seem to keep increasing the power of their techniques after already being able to channel their latent ki into blasts.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't mind Kaio-ken x100 & Super Kaio-ken. I consider them anime-only though, and not possible to happen in the manga.

Well, he basically did? He stated before that he could handle Kaiou-ken tenfold, so it can be assumed x10 replaced double Kaiou-ken;

It's true that Kaio-ken x10 had became Goku's "default" Kaio-ken level. Not that he couldn't use normal Kaio-ken, it was just that up to Kaio-ken x10, it wasn't significantly damaging his body.

he struggled to raise Kaiou-ken x2 to three and four, so I imagine him raising it to Kaiou-ken x11 and 12 would be just as bad? 20 was an insane risk, most likely. I think he was just shooting in the dark with gambling on that; I don't think it was implying 20 the was limit.

But Kaio-ken x20 didn't damage his body like Kaio-ken x3 did. Why didn't Goku use Kaio-ken beyond x20, if he could still handle it, but with the cost of heavily damaging his body, like he did against Vegeta? Because he can't go beyond x20, IMO.