I don't see when Pure boo is actually stated as the strongest in the anime. The majority of evidence throughout the anime also suggests he's weaker than Evil Boo too. Goku is sure that Gotenks would have no problem dispatching Fat Boo. If SSJ Gotenks could defeat Fat Boo then SSJ3 Gotenks is definitely stronger than SSJ3 Goku. And we know Evil Boo is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks because Evil Boo says only Gohan is stronger than him. So no matter how you look at it if SSJ3 Goku can beat Pure Boo and SSJ3 Goku can't beat Evil Boo then Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:@Hitiro The thing is, it doesn't take any nitpicking at all. It's blatantly stated that Pure Boo is the strongest in the anime, which holds more weight than interpretations of implications.
Buugetto
Re: Buugetto
Re: Buugetto
The narrator says it, Kaioshin says, and Goku says it. I don't know what else to tell you, it's there.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Buugetto
The thing is, it's not SS Goku that is stronger than Boo. It's base Goku.goku the krump dancer wrote:I don't see why its so hard to believe that SSJ Goku or General Rildo would be stronger than Boo (Fat,Super or Kid).. Isn't it Dragon Ball tradition for the next bad guy to stronger than the last? Hell Dabura who was a henchman was compared to Cell who was the previous arc's top villain.
So in that regard I don't see that as a problem in GT.
The characters after Freeza arc relay more on transformation & merging methods, rather than rising their base power by many times like in the past.
Until Saiyan arc, everyone was getting stronger through training & new techniques (like Makankosappo, Kienzan, Kikoho, Kaio-ken, etc).
In Freeza arc, Goku got stronger through training, and mainly through near-death power-ups & Super Saiyan, Vegeta through near-death power-ups, Gohan through Saichouro power-up & near-death power-ups, Kuririn through Saichouro power-up, and Piccolo through training and mainly by merging with Nail.
In Cell arc, Piccolo got stronger through training & had to merge with Kami to become useful, and the Saiyans had to master and/or go beyond Super Saiyan.
In Boo arc, (base) Goku got stronger after 7 years, but not by much, with his main gains being Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta through also got stronger through training (same increase as Goku, since the gap from before didn't change), but mainly through Super Saiyan 2 & Babidi's power up, Gohan got stronger through Rou Kaioshin's power-up, and Goten & Trunks through Fusion + Super Saiyan 3.
And suddenly, GT makes Goku 400 times stronger, without including transformations.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Buugetto
Never heard the Narrator say it, Kaioshin says this Boo is the worst in the anime. Not the strongest. In the manga it sounds more like he's saying he's the strongest because he says about the whole going through absorptions to weaken him thing. And I know Goku never says it because Goku says he can defeat Pure Boo, whereas he says they have no chance against Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:The narrator says it, Kaioshin says, and Goku says it. I don't know what else to tell you, it's there.
I agree, its too ridiculous of an increase. Goku did get a lot stronger in the RoSaT during the Cell era in one year but it was only a couple of times stronger through fighting with his Son who was getting stronger due to his enormous potential so Goku was basically playing catchup and getting loads Zenkai's while fighting Gohan. But past the Cell era nobody was massively stronger than SSJ2 Gohan without a new transformation or ability. One can argue its because Goku was fighting with Oob up till the start of GT and that's why he gained such crazy gains. But I doubt Oob has use of 100% of Pure Boo's potential in 7 years of training. Also humans have more limitations on their bodies than other races so I doubt he'd be able to use such a massive power without, for instance, the Rou Kaioshin's power up to allow him to use his potential way beyond his limits.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The thing is, it's not SS Goku that is stronger than Boo. It's base Goku.
The characters after Freeza arc relay more on transformation & merging methods, rather than rising their base power by many times like in the past.
Until Saiyan arc, everyone was getting stronger through training & new techniques (like Makankosappo, Kienzan, Kikoho, Kaio-ken, etc).
In Freeza arc, Goku got stronger through training, and mainly through near-death power-ups & Super Saiyan, Vegeta through near-death power-ups, Gohan through Saichouro power-up & near-death power-ups, Kuririn through Saichouro power-up, and Piccolo through training and mainly by merging with Nail.
In Cell arc, Piccolo got stronger through training & had to merge with Kami to become useful, and the Saiyans had to master and/or go beyond Super Saiyan.
In Boo arc, (base) Goku got stronger after 7 years, but not by much, with his main gains being Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta through also got stronger through training (same increase as Goku, since the gap from before didn't change), but mainly through Super Saiyan 2 & Babidi's power up, Gohan got stronger through Rou Kaioshin's power-up, and Goten & Trunks through Fusion + Super Saiyan 3.
And suddenly, GT makes Goku 400 times stronger, without including transformations.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Buugetto
The significant near-death power-ups were over at that point. According to the Super Exciting Guides, Goku's gains inside the RoSaT mainly came from constantly staying as a Super Saiyan.Hitiro wrote:Goku did get a lot stronger in the RoSaT during the Cell era in one year but it was only a couple of times stronger through fighting with his Son who was getting stronger due to his enormous potential so Goku was basically playing catchup and getting loads Zenkai's while fighting Gohan.
So again, the huge power increase came thanks to a (kinda) new form.Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10
Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3
Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Buugetto
Nope, Kaioshin says he's the most powerful and the most troublesome in the anime version. And your reasoning for Goku not saying it doesn't work, because he DOES say Pure Boo is the strongest, while fighting him. Yes, it contradicts what he said about not being able to defeat Evil Boo, but it doesn't change the fact that he said Pure Boo was the strongest.Hitiro wrote:Never heard the Narrator say it, Kaioshin says this Boo is the worst in the anime. Not the strongest. In the manga it sounds more like he's saying he's the strongest because he says about the whole going through absorptions to weaken him thing. And I know Goku never says it because Goku says he can defeat Pure Boo, whereas he says they have no chance against Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:The narrator says it, Kaioshin says, and Goku says it. I don't know what else to tell you, it's there.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Buugetto
I'm pretty sure I recall Kaioshin saying Pure Boo is the most dangerous of the Boo's, that doesn't really equate to him being stronger. Also, as I said, Goku says he can beat Pure Boo but he can't beat Evil Boo so that says Evil Boo is stronger. Goku never says Pure Boo was the strongest. The only Boo that Goku mentions is the South Kaioshin Boo in the anime saying he's getting stronger and bigger. After he turns into Pure Boo they aren't bothered by him that much.Saiga wrote:Nope, Kaioshin says he's the most powerful and the most troublesome in the anime version. And your reasoning for Goku not saying it doesn't work, because he DOES say Pure Boo is the strongest, while fighting him. Yes, it contradicts what he said about not being able to defeat Evil Boo, but it doesn't change the fact that he said Pure Boo was the strongest.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Buugetto
From Episode 278, right after Goku & Vegeta break the Potara.Hitiro wrote:I'm pretty sure I recall Kaioshin saying Pure Boo is the most dangerous of the Boo's, that doesn't really equate to him being stronger. Also, as I said, Goku says he can beat Pure Boo but he can't beat Evil Boo so that says Evil Boo is stronger. Goku never says Pure Boo was the strongest.Saiga wrote:Nope, Kaioshin says he's the most powerful and the most troublesome in the anime version. And your reasoning for Goku not saying it doesn't work, because he DOES say Pure Boo is the strongest, while fighting him. Yes, it contradicts what he said about not being able to defeat Evil Boo, but it doesn't change the fact that he said Pure Boo was the strongest.
Kaioshin wrote:He has gone back to the original, most difficult, powerful Majin Boo!
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Buugetto
Is this dubbed or the original Japanese dialogue? I don't recall hearing this line. Also this line doesn't say he's the strongest Majin Boo either, it just says "most difficult, powerful Majin Boo!" the comma is a clear separation of the two statements "most difficult" and "powerful Majin Boo!" he wasn't called the "most powerful Majin Boo!" just a "powerful Majin Boo!" that's what I get from that wording anyway. Basically he's the most difficult out of all the other Boo's and he's a powerful one in comparison to the Fat Boo or perhaps the Pure Evil Boo but it in no way implies he's the strongest.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Kaioshin wrote:He has gone back to the original, most difficult, powerful Majin Boo!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Buugetto
It's in the original. The way it's worded, I think Kaioshin wants to say that he is the most difficult & most powerful Majin Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Buugetto
I think this would be the case if there were more than 3 words or word groups. For example: "He is the most difficult, powerful, evil and ruthless Majin Boo!" I think this is more of a separation between two different points, for example: "She was really mad at me, the cake was good though." However I wouldn't quote me on that. My English punctuation is not the greatest. Furthermore this is Kaioshin we're talking about here. He hasn't been right about who is stronger than who since he was introduced so I wouldn't take his word on it even if what he meant was Pure Boo is the strongest.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's in the original. The way it's worded, I think Kaioshin wants to say that he is the most difficult & most powerful Majin Boo.
Re: Buugetto
Goku does say Pure Boo is the strongest. He says he's on a different level to the other forms of Boo or something along those lines.
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goku the krump dancer
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Re: Buugetto
I still don't think its that farfetched, I mean its implied through out the series that sometimes having a training partner works out better than training alone especially when sparring with someone stronger than you. Look at Goku and Gohan's time in RoSaT, in just under a years time Goku managed to not only gain a shit load of power himself but also get Gohan caught up by turning him to a super saiyan and on top of that he managed to make him arguably the strongest fighter up until the beginning of the Boo arc also keep in mind they didn't even use the full year of the room so they probably still had a month or two to spare. Going by past events a lot can happen in 2 months since Trunks says Vegeta broke the SSJ wall in just the first two months of their time in the room.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The thing is, it's not SS Goku that is stronger than Boo. It's base Goku.
The characters after Freeza arc relay more on transformation & merging methods, rather than rising their base power by many times like in the past.
Until Saiyan arc, everyone was getting stronger through training & new techniques (like Makankosappo, Kienzan, Kikoho, Kaio-ken, etc).
In Freeza arc, Goku got stronger through training, and mainly through near-death power-ups & Super Saiyan, Vegeta through near-death power-ups, Gohan through Saichouro power-up & near-death power-ups, Kuririn through Saichouro power-up, and Piccolo through training and mainly by merging with Nail.
In Cell arc, Piccolo got stronger through training & had to merge with Kami to become useful, and the Saiyans had to master and/or go beyond Super Saiyan.
In Boo arc, (base) Goku got stronger after 7 years, but not by much, with his main gains being Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3, Vegeta through also got stronger through training (same increase as Goku, since the gap from before didn't change), but mainly through Super Saiyan 2 & Babidi's power up, Gohan got stronger through Rou Kaioshin's power-up, and Goten & Trunks through Fusion + Super Saiyan 3.
And suddenly, GT makes Goku 400 times stronger, without including transformations.
With all that said, if Goku managed to do all that in say eight months time, can you imagine what he can accomplish in 5 years with Oob as a sparring partner on top of the 10 years he had prior to GT. He should be able to match any of the Boo's (except GohanBoo and GotenksBoo) in his base form and going Super Saiyan would just seal the deal similar to his fight with Legic.
Which I will also go to say that his little skirmish with Freeza and Cell in Hell isn't all that "ZOMG GOKU OVERKILL" either, I mean by that time its been 26 years since Goku fought Freeza and 22 years since his fight with Cell. If Cell was already considered small fry by the Boo arc then he along with Freeza would "realistically" be flies in comparison to Goku by the time GT rolls around.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
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Re: Buugetto
Do you know what episode he says this? I don't recall this either. Even if he does say this, he's probably on about a different level with respect to the Majin Boo he's thought which would just be Fat Boo. Because in the exact same fight he says he could beat him. So if he can beat Pure Boo then they should have just left Evil Boo with Fat Boo still inside him and let Goku defeat him. This isn't the case though as he says they can't win against Evil Boo. So regardless of any mistakes in the anime Evil Boo is still more powerful than Pure Boo considering the events and the lines they say that contradict Pure Boo being stronger than Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:Goku does say Pure Boo is the strongest. He says he's on a different level to the other forms of Boo or something along those lines.
Re: Buugetto
I'm pretty sure it's towards the end of Episode 279, leading into Goku first going Super Saiyan 3 against Pure Boo after having been fighting him in just Super Saiyan 2 up to that point.
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Re: Buugetto
Except the anime version of Goku has fought Evil Boo as well, in all his forms (well, not Piccolo absorbed). And Pure Boo is the strongest one he's faced.Hitiro wrote:Do you know what episode he says this? I don't recall this either. Even if he does say this, he's probably on about a different level with respect to the Majin Boo he's thought which would just be Fat Boo. Because in the exact same fight he says he could beat him. So if he can beat Pure Boo then they should have just left Evil Boo with Fat Boo still inside him and let Goku defeat him. This isn't the case though as he says they can't win against Evil Boo. So regardless of any mistakes in the anime Evil Boo is still more powerful than Pure Boo considering the events and the lines they say that contradict Pure Boo being stronger than Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:Goku does say Pure Boo is the strongest. He says he's on a different level to the other forms of Boo or something along those lines.
It is never directly stated that Evil Boo is the strongest Boo, like Pure Boo is. Therefore, despite the contradictions to the manga's story, the anime version presents Boo as being the strongest. The evidence contrary to this is all a result of adapting the manga where Evil Boo was the strongest.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Buugetto
But he didn't "fight" Evil Boo, he just dodged him when he had Gotenks absorbed. The fact that he says to Vegeta that they have to come up with a plan before they leave Boo because they'll never win is all we need to know that he is too powerful for them both. And Goku never contradicts this statement unlike the Pure Boo statement you provided where he later says that at full power he could beat Pure Boo which wouldn't make any sense if Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo seeing as Goku said they couldn't win against Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:Except the anime version of Goku has fought Evil Boo as well, in all his forms (well, not Piccolo absorbed). And Pure Boo is the strongest one he's faced.
It is never directly stated that Evil Boo is the strongest Boo, like Pure Boo is. Therefore, despite the contradictions to the manga's story, the anime version presents Boo as being the strongest. The evidence contrary to this is all a result of adapting the manga where Evil Boo was the strongest.
Re: Buugetto
He fights Gohan-Boo. It's brief, but it's a fight. And he has another fight with Evil Boo inside his body.Hitiro wrote:But he didn't "fight" Evil Boo, he just dodged him when he had Gotenks absorbed. The fact that he says to Vegeta that they have to come up with a plan before they leave Boo because they'll never win is all we need to know that he is too powerful for them both. And Goku never contradicts this statement unlike the Pure Boo statement you provided where he later says that at full power he could beat Pure Boo which wouldn't make any sense if Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo seeing as Goku said they couldn't win against Evil Boo.Saiga wrote:Except the anime version of Goku has fought Evil Boo as well, in all his forms (well, not Piccolo absorbed). And Pure Boo is the strongest one he's faced.
It is never directly stated that Evil Boo is the strongest Boo, like Pure Boo is. Therefore, despite the contradictions to the manga's story, the anime version presents Boo as being the strongest. The evidence contrary to this is all a result of adapting the manga where Evil Boo was the strongest.
All the implications that Goku couldn't beat Evil Boo are contradicted by the statements that Goku could beat Pure Boo, who is stated in three separate cases to be stronger than any of the other forms of Boo.
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OWmyDragonBallz
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Re: Buugetto
Pretty sure Goku is generally stronger than Evil buu.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
Flat out shown that Goku is weakened right here due to size. Buu smiles and says "it's no use" which is referring to size since the blast had no effect.
Goku > Evil buu in both manga/anime.
As for the theory of Evil buu > Pure buu. (Nobody said he was stronger than Pure buu) :
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
The context of this directly links back to when they mentioned his ki increasing. The kai's were not in Buu anymore.
Goku was struggling against Pure buu. Since we established Pure buu > Evil buu, we can conclude Goku's superiority over Evil buu.
Now let's confirm Pure buu's superiorty over Gohan :
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P11.3
Context: Vegeta instructs the Earthlings on how to help make the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”
Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
As we can clearly see here, Gohan gathered ki up to his limit. We can confirm this to be true because not even Kaioshin (who had a lot of power before) was drained of his energy afterwards and could not go to heal Goku. Vegeta even mentioned that the fight between Goku/Pure buu would determine the fate of the universe giving no second thoughts about Gohan. Before you say "Gohan was dead", well so was Vegeta and that didn't stop him from coming down to help fight Buu. He concludes by saying Goku is #1 and the only one capable of fighting him.
I think this last part speaks for itself pretty clearly :
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
This tells us that Goku was weaker than Pure buu the entire time and says he needs to train. He flat out says, nobody would have been able to defeat Pure buu. That includes any of the Z fighters.
Conclusion : Buuhan > Buutenks > Pure buu > Goku > Gohan > Gotenks > Vegeta.
Buutenks states he is the birth of the mightiest majin, so of course he'd be above his Pure buu state. Also the anime never said Pure buu > Buuhan. It states he was the most powerful buu. Doesn't necessarily mean Buuhan.
Buuhan/Buutenks was Evil buu stealing other guys powers in addition to his own. Goku/Kaioshin merely put emphasis on his power directly linking back to Buu's backstory about his power being lowered through absorption.
The evidence of Goku/Pure buu's superiority over Gohan/Evil buu is extraordinary. There is simply no reason to separate the manga/anime in terms of storytelling just because your view isn't fit for the Anime.
Fans who have this view have the Anime/manga/daizenshuu backing them up. (yes the daizenshuu said Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, Gohan Surpassed Gotenks, and Goku being the only one who can fight with Pure buu)
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P4.2-4, P6.3-6
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are attacked by evil Boo
Goku: “Alrii—iight! Come at me if you’re gonna. I’ll open up a huge hole inside your body! *Boo smiles* Wh-what are you smiling about?...Do you think I can’t open one?”
Boo: “It’s no use.”
Goku: “Don’t underestimate me.”
*Goku blasts, not much happens*
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “…It di-didn’t have any effect…”
Boo: “It stung a little here *points at head*, that’s all. You guys are now far, far smaller than fleas.”
Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”
Flat out shown that Goku is weakened right here due to size. Buu smiles and says "it's no use" which is referring to size since the blast had no effect.
Goku > Evil buu in both manga/anime.
As for the theory of Evil buu > Pure buu. (Nobody said he was stronger than Pure buu) :
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
The context of this directly links back to when they mentioned his ki increasing. The kai's were not in Buu anymore.
Goku was struggling against Pure buu. Since we established Pure buu > Evil buu, we can conclude Goku's superiority over Evil buu.
Now let's confirm Pure buu's superiorty over Gohan :
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P11.3
Context: Vegeta instructs the Earthlings on how to help make the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo! You’ll get very tired, but don’t worry! It will be like after you run as hard as you can! Well, go on! Raise your hands!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P12.3
Goku: “Everyone! Give me as much genki as you possibly can! Please!”
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”
Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”
As we can clearly see here, Gohan gathered ki up to his limit. We can confirm this to be true because not even Kaioshin (who had a lot of power before) was drained of his energy afterwards and could not go to heal Goku. Vegeta even mentioned that the fight between Goku/Pure buu would determine the fate of the universe giving no second thoughts about Gohan. Before you say "Gohan was dead", well so was Vegeta and that didn't stop him from coming down to help fight Buu. He concludes by saying Goku is #1 and the only one capable of fighting him.
I think this last part speaks for itself pretty clearly :
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
This tells us that Goku was weaker than Pure buu the entire time and says he needs to train. He flat out says, nobody would have been able to defeat Pure buu. That includes any of the Z fighters.
Conclusion : Buuhan > Buutenks > Pure buu > Goku > Gohan > Gotenks > Vegeta.
Buutenks states he is the birth of the mightiest majin, so of course he'd be above his Pure buu state. Also the anime never said Pure buu > Buuhan. It states he was the most powerful buu. Doesn't necessarily mean Buuhan.
Buuhan/Buutenks was Evil buu stealing other guys powers in addition to his own. Goku/Kaioshin merely put emphasis on his power directly linking back to Buu's backstory about his power being lowered through absorption.
The evidence of Goku/Pure buu's superiority over Gohan/Evil buu is extraordinary. There is simply no reason to separate the manga/anime in terms of storytelling just because your view isn't fit for the Anime.
Fans who have this view have the Anime/manga/daizenshuu backing them up. (yes the daizenshuu said Gotenks surpassed Vegeta, Gohan Surpassed Gotenks, and Goku being the only one who can fight with Pure buu)
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DBZGTKOSDH
- Namekian Warrior
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Re: Buugetto
Goku never said he would beat Evil Boo. He thought he could open a hole because Boo's body is like a gum (even bullets could make holes). And don't forget that Goku tried to open the hole while he was a Super Saiyan. If the whole incident makes SS Goku > Evil Boo, then why was Goku trying to persuade Vegeta to use Fusion? He did say that if they went out there together, they wouldn't stand a chance, except if they were to use Fusion.OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Flat out shown that Goku is weakened right here due to size. Buu smiles and says "it's no use" which is referring to size since the blast had no effect.
Goku > Evil buu in both manga/anime.
Only Dai Kaioshin was implied to had decreased Boo's power. When Kaioshin was telling the story, he never talked about any negative change for Boo, until the gentle Dai Kaioshin got absorbed and decreased Boo's power through his kind soul.OWmyDragonBallz wrote:The context of this directly links back to when they mentioned his ki increasing. The kai's were not in Buu anymore.
You keep ignoring that the Genki Dama doesn't take the ki, but genki, which only a part out of the many parts of ki. Genki is one's life energyOWmyDragonBallz wrote:As we can clearly see here, Gohan gathered ki up to his limit. We can confirm this to be true because not even Kaioshin (who had a lot of power before) was drained of his energy afterwards and could not go to heal Goku. Vegeta even mentioned that the fight between Goku/Pure buu would determine the fate of the universe giving no second thoughts about Gohan.
The whole #1 talk is about their rivalry, not about who is the strongest in the universe.OWmyDragonBallz wrote:He concludes by saying Goku is #1 and the only one capable of fighting him.
Last time the fat Boo spawned another Boo, he absorbed Boo, Piccolo, Gotenks, and Gohan. And Goku didn't say that he is weaker than Boo. While his full power is greater than Pure Boo's (he said he could kill him), he couldn't reach his full power due to his living body, so he must get stronger.OWmyDragonBallz wrote:This tells us that Goku was weaker than Pure buu the entire time and says he needs to train. He flat out says, nobody would have been able to defeat Pure buu. That includes any of the Z fighters.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.