Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[Saiga]

That's probably the most consistent Toriyama has ever been on weights and gravity.

[Bussani]

Well, Goku's weighted clothes weighed around 90 kilograms, if I remember right. On Kaio's planet he'd weigh around 620 kilograms (a little over half a ton)--closer to 1.7 tons with his weights on. In 100G on his way to Namek, he would have weighed nearly 7 tons; the next weight mentioned after that is Vegeta's 18 tons in 300G. If we ignore certain things from before the "Z" portion of the series, that all seems like a fairly consistent progression.

[Saiga]

Well, Goku's weighted clothes weighed around 90 kilograms, if I remember right. On Kaio's planet he'd weigh around 620 kilograms (a little over half a ton)--closer to 1.7 tons with his weights on. In 100G on his way to Namek, he would have weighed nearly 7 tons; the next weight mentioned after that is Vegeta's 18 tons in 300G. If we ignore certain things from before the "Z" portion of the series, that all seems like a fairly consistent progression.

I was actually going to ask you on chat about the other instances of given weights

And the turtle shells were first 10 and 20 kilograms, right?

[Bussani]

I think the first ones were 20 kilograms, and the next ones were double that. It seems to me that when Toriyama cares to actually state the weight of things, he at least keeps the progression going in a straight line. However, there are some unstated things that don't fit if you try to work them out for yourself, like Goku being able to lift Bulma's car (probably a ton or two), or a push a massive rock (although that isn't really lifting). I suppose just lifting something is different from being able to fight while lifting something, though.

[dario03]

If your talking about the car in the very beginning wasn't that thing tiny. I would say a ton at the very max. Though that is still a decent lift, moving that big rock was more impressive to me. And I think you're right about those shells being 20kg and 40kg.

I would like to see what is said in the original Japanese version since that 180,000kg might of just been a translation or math error.

It is. In the original, he says the person would weigh 18 tons, which is around three hundred times what they would normally weigh if they weighed 60 kilograms.

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P11.3-5
Brief: “Huh!? You…you say you want me to make you a 300-times gravity room!?”
Vegeta: “That’s right. It seems that Kakarot trained in 100-times gravity…I’m at least 3 times as much as him…”
Brief: “Th…that’s crazy…Ve…Vegeta, if you weigh 60 kilos…then you’ll become eigh…18 tons….”

So in the Cell arc, 18 tons is treated like an unbelievable deal. In the Buu arc, Goku (sans Super Saiyan) would have trouble with 40 tons while using bukujutsu. Seems pretty fair to me.

Thank you for the quote. I'm guessing you got it from the strength checker...which I sorta kinda forgot existed

[Kakarot88]

I would like to see what is said in the original Japanese version since that 180,000kg might of just been a translation or math error.

It is. In the original, he says the person would weigh 18 tons, which is around three hundred times what they would normally weigh if they weighed 60 kilograms.

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P11.3-5
Brief: “Huh!? You…you say you want me to make you a 300-times gravity room!?”
Vegeta: “That’s right. It seems that Kakarot trained in 100-times gravity…I’m at least 3 times as much as him…”
Brief: “Th…that’s crazy…Ve…Vegeta, if you weigh 60 kilos…then you’ll become eigh…18 tons….”

So in the Cell arc, 18 tons is treated like an unbelievable deal. In the Buu arc, Goku (sans Super Saiyan) would have trouble with 40 tons while using bukujutsu. Seems pretty fair to me.

That does not negate my point:

Yes, Android arc: Over 18 tons in base form:








And Buu arc

only 4 tons in Base form while training all day and then 40 tons is super easy in SS form...

Point: if 4 tons is peak then Goku got weaker than Vegeta in Base form...BUT it is NOT peak BECAUSE Goku had been training for a considerable period of time given the sweat and duration of Gohan training Videl and Goten which was, at least to me, done in order to at a bare minimum convey the parallel structure of Goku's training on that particular day.

And besides what matters is STRIKING POWER and NOT strength as Vegeta and Goku can continually exert Ki after full arm extension to generate more force.

SS2 Gohan destroyed Cell Juniors in single blows. He had enough power to detsroy being with Freeza's blodd and therefore other physical attributes such as physical durability and ability to breathe in space like Piccolo and regeneration. Thus, they could easily withstand small to medium planet explosions. We know this is true becuase thei Ki output was on par with Super Saiyans and Freeza says Goku could survive Namek exploding but would still die in space.

Point: striking power far surpasses lifting strength so all of that was not really relevant. This is true in Kung Fu anyways becuase a person in those forms of partial arts generally does body weight training so they stay lean and generate more force despite maybe not lifting as much.



Going faster than light and mass reduction:

Mass increases exponentially as it approaches light speed and then as it hits light speed and beyond reduces to 0, hence why Batman says "relativity is his friend he...wants to stay just under [light speed]."

Article that gives a better discussion: http://zidbits.com/2011/04/why-cant-any ... -of-light/

[Kakarot88]

Well, Goku's weighted clothes weighed around 90 kilograms, if I remember right. On Kaio's planet he'd weigh around 620 kilograms (a little over half a ton)--closer to 1.7 tons with his weights on. In 100G on his way to Namek, he would have weighed nearly 7 tons; the next weight mentioned after that is Vegeta's 18 tons in 300G. If we ignore certain things from before the "Z" portion of the series, that all seems like a fairly consistent progression.

Are you def sure about that, because I am almost positive King Kai said while Goku in base form was fighting Freeza and Yamcha was like "well Goku is still wearing his weighted clothes after all" that King Kai responded that Goku had "stopped wearing weighted clothes," and when he made Goku's new gui (spelling?) he said they were light weight and resistant to light attacks but would provide no defense against the Saiyans.

(scanlation image removed by administrator)

[TheMightyOzaru]

We also have to remember strength isn't linear with Ki.

[Kakarot88]

We also have to remember strength isn't linear with Ki.

Exactly! And that is why that whole lifting strength, which was not even his peak as he had already been training for quite some time, is irrelevant and what they should have used was striking power.

SS2 striking power is larger than small planet shattering, which is Superman's peak without momentum. SS2's punch we know is more because SS2 Gohan shatters Cell juniors which have Freeza's physical durability cells (like Piccolo's regeneration cells) and Frieza endured Namek's explosion.

In other words SS2= minimum small to medium explosion tanker shattering which is > than small planet shattering. This is because an explosion is more concussive force than shattering because an explosion involves some disintegration whereas shattering does not.

We know SS2 Goku at Buu has more power than SS2 Gohan because the Z warriors can sense power (ki) and Majin Vegeta sensed this and says so. Therefore Goku at a minimum can accomplish said punches and even 4 times greater as SS3.


Why this matters is Superman can have his durability reduced ie Doomsday, Wonderwoman, Zod, Darkseid, etc. given enough punches. His biolelectric aura protects his suit because it is just above the skin so when the suit rips it shows durability reduction


Point: those ppl who hit less than Superman specifically WW causes a bypass and reduction of durability. WW punches < Superman's punches w/o momentum (ie a speed rush) < Goku's punches at SS2. Therefore Goku could severely wear down the Man of Steel...yet Death battle erroneously looked at strength.


Either way the final conclusion as stated by Ben above and shown in my prior post was all based on Plot Induced Stupidity.

[valfranx]

Point: striking power far surpasses lifting strength so all of that was not really relevant. This is true in Kung Fu anyways becuase a person in those forms of partial arts generally does body weight training so they stay lean and generate more force despite maybe not lifting as much.

exactly.

talking about this, the Destructive Capacity Chart was updated:
http://deadliestfictionalwarrior.wikisp ... e+capacity

In VS circles, Destructive Capacity refers to the capabilities of a character, weapon, etc. to destroy something in a short period of time (usually with one attack), or in other words, the energy output of that entity. This ability can be crucial to determine which character would emerge victorious in a hypothetical battle, as a great way to win is to simply nuke the opposition off the map. There are varying levels of destructive force, corresponding to the body that such force would be capable of destroying in the real world. Destructive energy is usually measured in joules, or in greatly more simplified equivalents, tons of TNT. For very high levels, the Foe unit is used.

ps: A foe is a unit of energy equal to 1044 joules or 1051 ergs, used to measure the large amount of energy produced by a supernova.

Destructive Capacity is often referred to as "Firepower" in the DFW Wiki.

Destructive Capacity Chart:

1. Street Level (0 tons) - A (somewhat misleading) term used by Marvel Comics to refer to human characters.

Examples: Solid Snake from Metal Gear, Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell, Captain America from Marvel Comics

2. Wall Level (0 tons) - Characters that can destroy at least 1m^3 of stone-like material.

Examples: Satellizer L. Bridget and others from Freezing

3. Small Building Level (0.005 tons) - Characters that can destroy a small building or 25m^3 of stone-like material.

Examples:

4. Building Level (0.25 tons) - Characters that can destroy a normal building or at least 200m^3 of stone-like material.

Clare and others from Claymore

Examples:

5. Large Building Level (2 tons) - Characters that can destroy a large building.

Examples:

6. City Block Level (11 tons) - Characters that can destroy a Manhattan-like city block.

Examples: Many HST characters

7. Multi City Block Level (44 tons) - Characters that can destroy double the previous.

Examples: Claymore high tiers

8. Town/Hill Level (5.8 kilotons) - Characters that can destroy a settlement of at least 1 kilometer, or a rock formation of meters.

Examples:

Most HST high tiers

9. City/Mountain Level (6.3 megatons) - Characters that can destroy a settlement of at least 10 kilometers or a rock formation of kilometers.

Examples: Yu Yu Hakusho S Classes, HST top tiers, Iron Man

10. Island Level (4.6 gigatons) - Characters that can destroy a large island.

Examples: 23rd Bodoukai Goku and Piccolo from Dragon Ball

11. Country Level (7 teratons) - Characters that can destroy an average-area country.

Examples: Lavos from Chrono Trigger,

12. Continent Level (1.33 petatons) - Characters that can destroy an average-area continent.

Examples: Jyoka from Houshin Engi

13. Moon/Planetoid Level (29 exatons) - Characters that can destroy the Moon or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Z from Tenchi Muyo!

14. Small Planet Level (433 exatons) - Characters that can destroy Mercury or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Alkanphel from Bio-Booster Armor Guyver, Zekka from Battle Angel Alita

15. Planet Level (57.3 zettatons) - Characters that can destroy Earth or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Many Part II Dragon Ball characters, some Sailor Moon characters

16. Large Planet Level (2.7 yottatons) - Characters that can destroy Uranus or an equivalent astronomical body.

Examples: Jedah from Darkstalkers, Dragon Ball high tiers, the Death Star from Star Wars

17. Small Star Level (3.840,546 tenatons) - Characters that can destroy the smallest known star.

Examples:

18. Star Level (164.913 tenatons) - Characters that can destroy the Sun.

Examples: Seraph angels from Bastard!!

19. Large Star Level (330.544 tenatons) - Characters that can destroy blue giant stars (Spectral Class B-O), represented by Rigel.

Examples: Thor and other Herald level characters from Marvel

20. Star System Level (5.709 Foe) - Characters that can destroy a solar system equivalent to our own.

Examples: Michael from Bastard!!, Thanos from Marvel

21. Small Galaxy Level (?) - Characters that can destroy Willman 1, the smallest known galaxy.

22. Galaxy Level (100 petaFoe) - Characters that can destroy a galaxy equivalent to the Milky Way.

[Black_Liger]

All this makes me dizzy lol

Does anyone think Bills would be a match for Superman? or Wiss or full power ssjg Goku? (when he learns to fully control the power and transform)

[dbzfan7]

All this makes me dizzy lol

Does anyone think Bills would be a match for Superman? or Wiss or full power ssjg Goku? (when he learns to fully control the power and transform)

I don't think so.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Depends on whether Birusu can warp reality or has magical abilities.

[Kakarot88]

Billis explodes him no effort. Superman can tank Supernovas no effort. But when Superman creates or tanks a non solar energy blast (such as his "Infinite Mass Punch into the Shadow Moon") which does the force of a Supernova it significantly bypassed Superman's durability showing his clothes torn and him unconscious (biolectric aura protects skin tight clothes-->clothes torn-->durability reduced). If Billis can destroy a Solar system in an instant: ウイス　「あっという間に太陽系ごと破壊されてしまわれます」 Uisu: [in honorific register] “The entire solar system will be destroyed in an instant.” ...then Billis wins no effort...well maybe some...either way Billis wins. period.

Besides, Death Battle was wrong, SS3 Goku from "If Son Goku Won't, Who Will?" aka "Wrath of the Dragon" could defeat Superman due to having Super Dragon fist and SS3 not being a drain on his body in the movie.

[VegettoEX]

I'm still struggling with the concept of you not being happy with the "experts" that provided the research to ScrewAttack, literally coming to our own forum to complain about it, and then continuing to cite our own translations back at us.

What exactly about Goku's Dragon Fist do you believe would somehow, by itself, miraculously be able to defeat Superman? Why do you not think Super Saiyan 3 was a drain on his body when he was not in the stage long enough to even come to that conclusion when everything we are told about the form says that it would be a drain on a living body?

[Kakarot88]

I'm still struggling with the concept of you not being happy with the "experts" that provided the research to ScrewAttack, literally coming to our own forum to complain about it, and then continuing to cite our own translations back at us.

What exactly about Goku's Dragon Fist do you believe would somehow, by itself, miraculously be able to defeat Superman? Why do you not think Super Saiyan 3 was a drain on his body when he was not in the stage long enough to even come to that conclusion when everything we are told about the form says that it would be a drain on a living body?

First, I was under the impression you gave Ben all the info he needed and then HE came up with his rationale as that is what HE said. You are blame free, I have never once complained about you, unless now you are saying:

It was you who said to use Snake Way for fighting speed despite Traverse time consistently being irrelevant?

You said use strength as why Goku would lose despite ki and striking power not being linear?

You told him that the whole point of Goku was just breaking limits and nothing to do with overcoming entitlement as much of the premise of the Vegeta and Goku storyline is East versus West hence why Ben's whole platitude analysis is completely bunk?

And you are saying Ben gave you his final rationale and you approved of all of it?

I am fairly certain you are not saying that so given all that misinformation my whole point has and continues to be: If you are going to consult experts then use them rather than providing lip service to fans and coming up with a rationale based on plot induced stupidity becuase you could not quantify the characters.


Doubley bad is the fact that this cite explicitly states that the movies are alternate versions of Goku in Toriyama's opinion as if they were from a different dimension said in I think Daizenshu 5 Q/A....meaning whatever the heck that composite mess Death Battle came up with was not even an actual recognized version of Goku, unless you want to claim in Budokai 3 an adult Goku going SS4 counts, but that is tenuous at best.


GT Goku is Over Powered to an extreme with fights showing massive differentials in power compared to when he is in child form or only helping people. If Ben wanted to use SS4 then his abilities should have been statistically based as Goku SS3 being his base form and then do the stats from there as Goku says "right now I am equal to Majin Boo" when he is fighting General Rildo as a child...the list of using SS4 then not actually using GT Goku was absurd as they disregard Goku's feats in GT as inconsistent and Superman's as perfectly explainable based on solar radiation when in fact both have the same problem: poor writing...but becuase GT Goku is OP as hell they made it up yet again going off of calcs that were irrelevant.


If you approved of all of that then I am quite surprised.


You yourself said you won't read my blog because some of my scans, not even all of them, are direct translations which you assume are wrong...so what is your beef with my discussion on Ben's errors? Unless they are also yours I do not understand your point.

Why would Dragionfist change the result?

Well, calculating it off of Omega Shenron's durability on the low end from tanking a low ended determined 10x Kamehameha based on Goku only being stated as going to destroy the Earth as a SS in the Cell saga (and not even dating it back to pushing back Vegeta's Galaik Gun in Kaio Ken x 4 in the Saiyan arc) still placed the Dragonfist above and beyond Superman's durability after being semi worn down in a fight. BUT if you disregard GT for determining it and place the power of the dragonfist at a full power SS3 Kamehameha but more isolated and directed as that attack is given its penetrating nature and it still trumps the man of steal's durability. All explained in greater detail in my blog.


Yes, SS3 in the movie was easier for Goku to maintain. In the manga Goku is never shown as being able to jump back into SS3 once low on energy and smacked into base form (unless I am wrong and that does not only happen in a filler scene in the anime) therefore having that new massive power means the form is easier for Goku to use.

[TonyTheTiger]

The mistake you're making is assuming there is any misinformation at all. You keep hammering that Ben and Chad's analysis was fucked up when, if viewed through a legitimately objective lens, was as good as can be when dealing with fictional characters and the resident experts who actually provided the information (using original sources, mind you, not poorly translated and typo-ridden scans) seem to have few, if any, qualms. The fact that the people who, no offense, clearly know more about Dragon Ball than you do (just a statement of fact, they know more than I do, too) can look at the analysis and be content with the results should at least give you a little pause in your outrage. Or at least trigger some internal reflection toward discovering whether you're upset because they made legitimate errors or just because Goku lost. Because from at least my end (and I actually can claim to have knowledge of both Dragon Ball and Superman, if not nearly as encyclopedic as the experts) nothing you've provided has even remotely inspired doubt in the Death Battle. Their numbers were well researched, properly defended, and fully justifiable.

And this isn't even even taking into account the obvious nerfing they gave Superman by doing things like ignoring Coldcast's words (15 supernovas to the face) while simultaneously fully taking Bulma's into account (Gero bomb blows up the Earth) and interpreting Superman's "weakness" to magic in the most liberal way possible while giving Goku a combination of every tool and skill he's ever demonstrated, however obscure. The irony of you constantly going after Ben for his statement about things like "arbitrariness of numbers" and shout outs to "core of the characters" is that the reason he's saying stuff like that is specifically for Goku's benefit, not Superman's since completely unbiased calculations taking into consideration both character's greatest feats puts Superman so much higher than Goku it would be insulting (and apparently still was to some people, even after tailoring the numbers as much in favor of Goku as possible). Calling the numbers arbitrary and celebrating Goku's tenacity is a consolation prize because the alternative was them being super clinical and saying "Superman whoops Goku all day, end of story." It is not an admission that they didn't do proper research or failed to justify their numbers.

[dario03]

But where in DC does it say that mass reduces? DC does throw out more numbers and will sometimes talk about physics but it also just makes stuff up and contradicts itself.

And I'm still not seeing the problem with Goku and the 40tons since he is flying and like you said was already training for a unknown amount of time. Plus its not the same kind of training since one is extra weight from extra gravity and the other is from weights on his wrists and ankles. I would think the extra gravity would be harder but who knows maybe the equal weight distribution requires less ki control or something.

[Kakarot88]

The mistake you're making is assuming there is any misinformation at all. You keep hammering that Ben and Chad's analysis was fucked up when, if viewed through a legitimately objective lens, was as good as can be when dealing with fictional characters and the resident experts who actually provided the information (using original sources, mind you, not poorly translated and typo-ridden scans) seem to have few, if any, qualms. The fact that the people who, no offense, clearly know more about Dragon Ball than you do (just a statement of fact, they know more than I do, too) can look at the analysis and be content with the results should at least give you a little pause in your outrage. Or at least trigger some internal reflection toward discovering whether you're upset because they made legitimate errors or just because Goku lost. Because from at least my end (and I actually can claim to have knowledge of both Dragon Ball and Superman, if not nearly as encyclopedic as the experts) nothing you've provided has even remotely inspired doubt in the Death Battle. Their numbers were well researched, properly defended, and fully justifiable.

And this isn't even even taking into account the obvious nerfing they gave Superman by doing things like ignoring Coldcast's words (15 supernovas to the face) while simultaneously fully taking Bulma's into account (Gero bomb blows up the Earth) and interpreting Superman's "weakness" to magic in the most liberal way possible while giving Goku a combination of every tool and skill he's ever demonstrated, however obscure. The irony of you constantly going after Ben for his statement about things like "arbitrariness of numbers" and shout outs to "core of the characters" is that the reason he's saying stuff like that is specifically for Goku's benefit, not Superman's since completely unbiased calculations taking into consideration both character's greatest feats puts Superman so much higher than Goku it would be insulting (and apparently still was to some people, even after tailoring the numbers as much in favor of Goku as possible). Calling the numbers arbitrary and celebrating Goku's tenacity is a consolation prize because the alternative was them being super clinical and saying "Superman whoops Goku all day, end of story." It is not an admission that they didn't do proper research or failed to justify their numbers.

I will just respectfully disagree with you and not broach the subject again with you because you have made up your mind without reading anything I have written.

Here is my last piece on it to you:


Death Battle's "Logic [sic]":

http://youtu.be/oyl97TG8jbA?t=31m21s “The difference is at the core of their character, Goku has never been invincible, he has very clear limits and must overcome those limits to solve the problems at hand. That’s the whole point…After accepting his alien side Superman has reached his full potential which under the power of the yellow sun is essentially limitless. In short Superman is as Strong as he needs to be. So what happens when you pit a man able to break any limit against a man who has no limits in the first place? Well only one has limits to give it all.


Death Battle was supposed to analyze Goku versus Superman, not their respective plot devices. Regardless, the determinative factor for Superman's victory was that when Goku overcomes his obstacles he does so with difficulty, whereas Superman can do so with ease :

“Whenever Goku did these kinds of things it was really really hard on him and like that was clearly his limit at the time that was kind of the deciding factor “ ~Ben "Wiz" Singer (Creator of Death Battle) 56:53 http://youtu.be/ns6POKq2XzY?t=56m53s


3 things are wrong with this rationale:

1. First, "Goku must overcome those limits to solve the problems at hand. That's the whole point"

That is only partially true.

Also at Goku's core is that he is a man with limitless potential one whose whole character is built on the notion that hard work and determination will always overcome any obstacle. That is really the whole point. Ben even says Goku "can break any limit" and did not consider what that actually means.

To have limitless potential means if Superman has reached his full potential then Goku could still reach a higher level, because Goku's potential is limitless.

Further at the heart of Goku is his ability to overcome natural talent. Entrisic to him is the idea that hard work overcomes entitlement. That's kind of the point of his Eastern Cultural herritage and why Vegeta became outclassed.

Goku defeated General Tao, King Piccolo, Piccolo, Vegeta, the Ginyu Special Corps, Freeza, etc. ones with superior birth right power, becuase Goku's powers were earned not given.


2. Second at his core "Superman...is essentially limitless"

That is also somewhat of a fallacy. Superman has the potential to accomplish limitless feats if he is in the presence of the yellow sun and given enough time because he is not instantly limitless. Otherwise Superman would never be worn down in a battle, need to sundip, etc​

He would essentially already be Superman Prime.

In some ways his body actually limits him; such as being peaked at small planet shattering punches because he cannot continue to exert energy upon full arm extension (like Goku with ki). Unlike accelerating to infinity where he can keep thrusting his whole body forward, his arm is attached at his shoulder so that is the limit of the force he can exert without moving the rest of his body.


3. Third, the numbers do matter because not only do they yield a diffierent result when analyzed correctly, but also by discounting what obstacles Superman overcomes and how Goku's abilities progressed Death Battle cheapens the characters and degrades their uniqueness.


SO if we rely on platitudes then the version of Goku that Death Battle used (not soleley Manga canon) still wins even if we only looked at the core of each of these characters

Some Examples:

"So what happens when you have a man capable of limitless feats and one who has limitless potential, well only one of them can access their potential in an instant and go even further beyond. The winner is Goku"

~OR~

"So what happens when you have a man who has reached his full potential and one whose potential is limitless. Well only one of them can go even further beyond. The winner is Goku."


Here is my point so I am not misinterpreted: Ben did a character analysis because in his opinion Superman was essentially limitless. He failed to take into account that Superman requires am ups to accomplish many feats like why he sun dips. He also is not instantly healed from the sun. And if we rationalize Superman's incionsistencies then it necessarily logically makes sense and is stated in the comics that he is more limited on Earth than in Space becuase he is farther away from the Sun. YET that was not taken into consideration, we cannot use Space stats for an Earth fight if Superman could never get to space. In an instant Goku IS faster, he moves more quickly and has instant transmission. Goku while fighting Superman would like he did against Frieza, realize he fights better in the air (not necessarily that it was due to the sun) but just better and kncok him to Earth keeping the fight there.


Superman can take more than he dishes out. Goku can dish out way more than he can take. None of this was even analyzed.


The Problem I have is if they had done a real numbers analysis that would be legitimate but by basing it off of platitudes that make an implicit contradiction on themselves:
If Superman has reached his full potential and Goku's potential is limitless [Ben's words: Superman has reach his full potential...Goku has the potential to break any limit] then logically Goku can go further beyond because he has not reached his limit and his potential is limitless. Break any limit = limitless.

But the core of Goku's character goes beyond breaking limits. By looking at these character through his narrow lens based on plot induced stupidity "because superman did things effortlessly and when Goku did things it was really hard that was the determinatve factor" the debate continues. Going with PIS means Goku wins.



I do not care Goku lost, solely manga Goku does lose if Cell is disregarded as being a solar system or star buster. period.

What I do care about is this: they got the Dragon Ball franchise wrong in many ways...despite consulting with the experts here and the Dao of Dragonball. Who as an aside is reading my blog...I must be bitching at him to VegetoEx? I'm not. I think y'all did a fine job, I think Ben becuase he did not have a working knwoeldge of Goku unfortunately misapplied his infromation.

Had you VegetoEx been in on his final rationale I am sure you would have corrected Been's reasoning, and if not, well then I guess Goku is not really that unique afterall.

I also care that they gave Goku erroneous stats which will be used on forums.

I also care that they essentially remade Superman's character and made him essentially Superman Prime by making him instantly limitless which again has every Superman fan boy who is not biased foaming at the mouth.

It's also ridiculous to use All Star Superman and then not base Goku's base form off of GT, not that it would matter because All Star is essentially permanently sun dipped.
WHICH as another aside we have one movie that shows the bare minimum of power Goku gets from absorbing a spirit bomb...yet that is assumed as being less than a sun dip...based on what? Again, this is why they backed into a faulty character analysis because their numbers would never add up (yes I know the cinematic represenation is mostly for entertainment).


PS

Everyone always talks about why Superman Prime would win, not saying he wouldn't but it is important to not that the character JUST cannot lose a Death Battle in any meaningful way...one of his abilities is "resurrection" granted ppl often refer to it being Louis which he did do...BUT when the page discussing this is read it is just ambiguous enough to mean he can resurrect himself from nothingness...

[Kakarot88]

But where in DC does it say that mass reduces? DC does throw out more numbers and will sometimes talk about physics but it also just makes stuff up and contradicts itself.

And I'm still not seeing the problem with Goku and the 40tons since he is flying and like you said was already training for a unknown amount of time. Plus its not the same kind of training since one is extra weight from extra gravity and the other is from weights on his wrists and ankles. I would think the extra gravity would be harder but who knows maybe the equal weight distribution requires less ki control or something.

It says it in the Batman Scan of why he is staying just under light speed. I do not have my own scans of Flash but they talk about in relation to the speed force allows Flash to fight at light speed and above. Superman and Goku although very fast have no connection with the speed force.

Goku exceeds FTL based on his Ki, Superman does the same, but that would affect his fighting unlike Goku if we placed these two in DC's verse.

Here's a link for some good info on the speed force: http://www.comicvine.com/speed-force/12-42071/