Goku: 90,000 to 3,000,000 Zenkai?!

[ShadowDude112]

So, as we know, when Goku used Kaio-Ken to show off to Ginyu, that made his Battle Power 180,000. So, divide that by 2 and you get 90,000 (as proven by the Daizenshuu.) But after Goku gets healed, his Battle Power is 3,000,000 since the Daizenshuu says that Super Saiyan gives the user a 50X increase, and Goku has a Battle Power of 150,000,000 as Super Saiyan, and it makes sense for his BP to be 3,000,000. But, how does that work? There's no way the Zenkai should have given him that much power. Even on his way to Namek, he only went from 8,000 to 90,000. Is there an in-universe explanation to this or is this just a way to have Goku be a match for Freeza?

[RandomGuy96]

This has bugged me to. Everyone always talks about how Freeza was scared of the Super Saiyan legend, but I personally think he was scared of the incredibly haxxed zenkai legend. No one's base power should get that insane that fast. Seriously, prior to Goku's incredibly haxxed x33 zenkai, he was an absolute joke to Freeza, and had he fought him Freeza would effortlessly cream him even as a Super Saiyan.

[Marco Polo]

Battle Power units are completely fictional... I mean they don't represent anything physics-wise or anything. So how do you know what is too much and what isn't? Maybe it's perfectly normal for BPs to increase exponentially rather than in a linear way.

[RandomGuy96]

It's not physically impossible, it's just VERY inconsistent.

Vegeta's first zenkai brought him from 18,000 to 24,000. His second brought him from 24,000 to 30,000. His third brought him to somewhere in the hundreds of thousands, but below 500,000, maybe around 300,000 (by far the most haxxed zenkai he got, and still nowhere near as haxxed as Goku's). His fourth and final zenkai brought him to 2 million-ish (I say 2.1 million).

So let's review: first zenkai is a 33% increase. Second is a 25% increase. Third is a x10 increase. Fourth is a x7 increase.

Then, on Goku's second zenkai, he suddenly goes from 90,000 to 3 million. Meaning he got 33 times stronger. Nothing suggests that power levels climbed this fast before this happened. That was completely unprecedented and clearly done so Goku wouldn't get roflstomped, because he has magical protagonist powers. In all honesty, even with kaio-ken x20, a zenkai that was internally consistent with the others would make Goku only slightly stronger than the Vegeta that Freeza killed.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

How Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 is mind blowing to me as well. The only explanation is Goku was fully healed.

[JulieYBM]

The numbers are irrelevant and always have been. Replace 'three million' with 'stronger than Vegeta, who was stronger than Piccolo, etc.' and you still get 'gets his ass kicked by Freeza effortlessly'.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Well seeing as how Goku has received countless Zenkais prior to the huge beating he received from Gohan, Krillin, and Vegeta I don't think it's too farfetched for Goku to receive such a massive power up. I go off the theory that the more Zenkais you receive, the greater the next increase. This is likely why Vegeta didn't receive such a massive increase when Dende healed him. He, as powerful as he was, likely rarely, if at all, ever encountered Zenkais. I also think the more wounds you have on the body, the more powerful the increase is. This is why Vegeta received such a large increase form his fight with Recoome yet received a rather poor increase, in comparison, when Krillin shot him. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

[Adamant]

The numbers are irrelevant and always have been. Replace 'three million' with 'stronger than Vegeta, who was stronger than Piccolo, etc.' and you still get 'gets his ass kicked by Freeza effortlessly'.

Pretty much. Remember that these number were calculations done for the guidebook, going off various statements made here and there throughout the series. Toriyama never actually wrote "Goku's battle power is 3 000 000" anywhere, and at the point he said Freeza was 530 000 and later 1 000 000, he might as well have forgotten what numbers he had assigned to Goku/Ginyu/etc earlier.

[ShadowDude112]

I was using the numbers to show how strong Goku got. He got ridiculously strong. That's my point. He got really strong just from getting healed, when even before then, he didn't get that strong.

[Kaboom]

Goku was being set up as THE legendary Super Saiyan at that point. Even without that, there's been potential fan-explanations over the years as to why Goku and Vegeta's healing boosts were that big. Everything from simply "closer to death, bigger boost," the rapid frequency of the boosts compounding how much power they granted, to some sort of dormant power thing where they were spiraling closer and closer to Super Saiyan.

[Bussani]

I was using the numbers to show how strong Goku got. He got ridiculously strong. That's my point. He got really strong just from getting healed, when even before then, he didn't get that strong.

I don't see how that changes what anyone said. The numbers are a little irrelevant since they were made up after the fact. That's the real, out of universe reason for their inconsistency--but you probably want in universe reasons, and that's fine, too.

Vegeta, when bragging to Jheese, says that the extension of his power isn't merely what you'd call "giftedness" at that point, and attributes it to him steadily drawing closer to becoming the Super Saiyan. Now, Vegeta went on and on about the Super Saiyan and even thought that he'd become one once or twice, but maybe he was on to something: maybe the near death power ups were granting such large boosts in power because they were driving Goku and Vegeta towards the transformation. It's a theory I know some people here like, and it kind of fits, since these power ups sort of went away (or just became less meaningful) after Super Saiyan was attained.

Edit: Hey, there's one of those guys who likes this theory above me!

[dprez]

I look at it like this. Gokus theoretical max, even with full power x10 Kaio-ken before his zenkai, would be a little under 1,000,000.

As Vegeta states here:

Chapter: 307 (DBZ 113), P8.2-3
Vegeta: “He’s not the same Kakarot as before…S-seems he’s finally overcome the wall of his limits…Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”

Goku's new base power is now even higher than his old max power, way higher. Apparently, when a saiyan trains his body like Goku did, combined with the kaio-ken technique and Gokus particular ki, his zenkai power-ups explode.

Vegeta, when bragging to Jheese, says that the extension of his power isn't merely what you'd call "giftedness" at that point, and attributes it to him steadily drawing closer to becoming the Super Saiyan. Now, Vegeta went on and on about the Super Saiyan and even thought that he'd become one once or twice, but maybe he was on to something: maybe the near death power ups were granting such large boosts in power because they were driving Goku and Vegeta towards the transformation. It's a theory I know some people here like, and it kind of fits, since these power ups sort of went away (or just became less meaningful) after Super Saiyan was attained.

I agree with this. The Super Saiyan form was in their future, we know this, and the zenkais were getting them closer to it, like a subconscious survival instinct. Although I see Goku's training as the reason for his massive zenkai, compared to Vegeta's slower, more casual zenkais.

[RandomGuy96]

...was it stated anywhere that you have to be a certain power level to go Super Saiyan?

Also, in (I think) non-canon specials, absolute weaklings like Goku Jr and Bardock go Super Saiyan. Even as Super Saiyans, they're still weaker than form 1 Freeza.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I think a lot of Vegeta's Zenkais were premature because even from his return from Earth, Kiwi warned that he wasn't fully healed/ rested; the entire trip on Namek, he only got a full night to relax, but which he was up all day probably detecting ki, and then only an hour of rest before confronting Freeza. I think if Vegeta had more time to rest and fully heal, he probably would have gotten much higher than 24,000 which might explain the massive growth gaps especially after the Senzu Beans/ Gokuu in Rejuvenation (he only slept one day out of six days).

[Adamant]

I was using the numbers to show how strong Goku got. He got ridiculously strong. That's my point. He got really strong just from getting healed, when even before then, he didn't get that strong.

Yeah. Toriyama likely just wrote "Goku is now strong enough to sort of rival Freeza when using his 20x Kaioken" without "this means he grew 30 times stronger from that healing" occurring to him. That's the kind of thing that's not clear until you sit down and calculate.

[Hitiro]

I think a lot of Vegeta's Zenkais were premature because even from his return from Earth, Kiwi warned that he wasn't fully healed/ rested; the entire trip on Namek, he only got a full night to relax, but which he was up all day probably detecting ki, and then only an hour of rest before confronting Freeza. I think if Vegeta had more time to rest and fully heal, he probably would have gotten much higher than 24,000 which might explain the massive growth gaps especially after the Senzu Beans/ Gokuu in Rejuvenation (he only slept one day out of six days).

I like this idea actually, Vegeta hadn't really slept at all during the Namek Arc. His sleep deprivation could have constituted to lower gains as well as not being fully recovered. His largest gain was straight after he'd eaten a Senzu, which alleviates fatigue and hunger and also heals the user. It all seems to fit.

[Bussani]

was it stated anywhere that you have to be a certain power level to go Super Saiyan?

One of the Daizenshuu says something to that effect.

Super Saiya-jin
First Appearance: chapter 317
Category: ability
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Son Goten, Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, Vegetto, Broli
Special features: The ultimate Saiya-jin warrior that surpasses the limits of a regular Saiya-jin. Originally, the existence of this form outside of legend was doubted even among Saiya-jin. In reality, any Saiya-jin that posses a high battle power above the standard level is capable of becoming a Super Saiya-jin. Possessing a calm heart, sensing extreme danger, feeling strong anger or sadness, or a danger to the Saiya-jin race itself seem to be states that are the essential keys to transforming. In addition to the outward signs of the transformation such as an aura, golden hair that stands straight up, and sharp, hawk-like eyes with emerald-green pupils, a battle power 50 times that of normal are proof of the legendary mightiest warrior.

[Blade]

I don't really understand the problem.

We see these kind of increases all the way through Dragonball with Goku - he comes back from every defeat more powerful. Take for example his near-death defeats against Tambourine and Piccolo - his power rose incredibly in a relatively short periods of time in both instances giving him enough power to overcome each respectively.

I get around the problem of Zenkai power increases being much larger in some situations than others through the notion of relative or reactive adaptability. That is to say that a Saiyan's power naturally increases relative to those around him - for me this goes great lengths to explain how the non-Saiyan characters are one-by-one left behind in terms of power as the story progresses and how Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan are able to amass great strength at very young ages that allow them to remain on-par with everyone else. I think of it as a Saiyan's hunting and battle instincts - this sort of relative adaptability allows groups of Saiyans who fight together to be able to feed off one and other and the situations they encounter. It's more than a Saiyan getting stronger after each fight - it's about Saiyan's merely adapting to that which surrounds them.

Besides - at this particular time in the Manga there was an emphasis on Zenkai and the legendary powers of the Saiyans; these are consistent running themes of the arc along with Freeza's fear that one day the Saiyans may become too powerful for him. After all that's why he committed his act of genocide against them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I believe that the increase was so huge because it was Goku's final near-death power-up. The rest he got after his battle with Freeza were insignificant, or even non-existent (according to Daizenshuu 7).

[ABED]

Goku's power may have jumped after the fights against Tambourine and Piccolo, but the impression I got from those situations was that he lost to Tambourine because he had just fought in the Tenkaichi Budokai, was hungry and hadn't eaten. As for Piccolo, his power up came from the water.