Goku: 90,000 to 3,000,000 Zenkai?!

[mister yummy]

This bugs me too, and it's mainly for this reason that I throw out the Daizenshuu Power Levels completely at this point, instead of only using them as a guide before.

Personally, I prefer the old "mis-translation" of 300,000 for Goku after the Zenkai. This also makes SSj Goku at 15,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 12,000,000. It's right around a 3x increase, and works very well with the 'zenkais' up to that point. Plus, it keeps power levels from getting so ridiculous so fast.

[TheMightyOzaru]

This bugs me too, and it's mainly for this reason that I throw out the Daizenshuu Power Levels completely at this point, instead of only using them as a guide before.

Personally, I prefer the old "mis-translation" of 300,000 for Goku after the Zenkai. This also makes SSj Goku at 15,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 12,000,000. It's right around a 3x increase, and works very well with the 'zenkais' up to that point. Plus, it keeps power levels from getting so ridiculous so fast.

That makes even less sense. The very idea that Goku, after the Zenkai, is weaker than Freeza's First Form is just plain ridiculous. Hell it already makes no sense because Piccolo and Vegeta are just in plain awe of Goku and both of them have a power level over a million =/.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This bugs me too, and it's mainly for this reason that I throw out the Daizenshuu Power Levels completely at this point, instead of only using them as a guide before.

Personally, I prefer the old "mis-translation" of 300,000 for Goku after the Zenkai. This also makes SSj Goku at 15,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 12,000,000. It's right around a 3x increase, and works very well with the 'zenkais' up to that point. Plus, it keeps power levels from getting so ridiculous so fast.

It can't work like that. In the manga, First Form Freeza's battle power was said to be 530.000, and Second Form Freeza's battle power was over 1.000.000. So, it would be better to leave Goku at 3.000.000.

[RandomGuy96]

I prefer the mistranslation too.

That makes even less sense. The very idea that Goku, after the Zenkai, is weaker than Freeza's First Form is just plain ridiculous. Hell it already makes no sense because Piccolo and Vegeta are just in plain awe of Goku and both of them have a power level over a million =/.

They knew he could multiply his power with kaio-ken, so they probably figured "This is his base power? How awesome must he be with kaio-whatever!?"

[TheMightyOzaru]

I prefer the mistranslation too.

That makes even less sense. The very idea that Goku, after the Zenkai, is weaker than Freeza's First Form is just plain ridiculous. Hell it already makes no sense because Piccolo and Vegeta are just in plain awe of Goku and both of them have a power level over a million =/.

They knew he could multiply his power with kaio-ken, so they probably figured "This is his base power? How awesome must he be with kaio-whatever!?"

Problem is, Piccolo and Vegeta are still in awe of Goku's power before he uses Kaioken, case in point Vegeta and Piccolo are very surprised when they see Goku deflect a death beam barrage, and their power levels are in the millions. Plus Vegeta went from 30,000 to 250,000 during the fight with the Ginyu Force so it's not outlandish to suggest he recieved a large Zenkai as well, especially since he was heavily damaged on all corners of his body. It's just plain absurd to suggest Goku is weaker than Piccolo or Vegeta at this point and even more absurd to suggest Goku is weaker than Freeza's first form... His first form!

[Hitiro]

I believe that the increase was so huge because it was Goku's final near-death power-up. The rest he got after his battle with Freeza were insignificant, or even non-existent (according to Daizenshuu 7).

I kind of have to disagree with you on this. Goku was marginally weaker than Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks in the Cell Arc. Yet all of a sudden Goku after entering the RoSaT once got stronger than all of them and was strong enough to rival Suppressed Perfect Cell in his regular SSJ form. Vegeta and Trunks entered twice and they still couldn't match (Post-RoSaT) Goku. I'm under the belief that while training with Gohan, who was increasing in strength by leaps and bounds due to more and more of his potential being released, was forced to keep up with him through Zenkai's. Its really the only logical explanation for Goku to go from being weaker than the Androids to as strong as Suppressed Perfect Cell whereas a Vegeta and Trunks who had already been in the RoSaT once and gotten stronger than the Androids and Semi-Perfect Cell were still chasing Goku even after going in there a second time.

[Saiga]

It's not the only logical explanation. Unlike Vegeta and Trunks, he also mastered the Super Saiyan form, which may have lead to an even greater benefit in his training.

[mister yummy]

That makes even less sense. The very idea that Goku, after the Zenkai, is weaker than Freeza's First Form is just plain ridiculous. Hell it already makes no sense because Piccolo and Vegeta are just in plain awe of Goku and both of them have a power level over a million =/.

This is an old argument. And the old answer is that Goku was using Kaioken the entire time, even right at first.So, with Kaio-ken x10, Goku ends up at 3,000,000 anyways. Vegita and Piccolo are stronger than Goku at this point, but neither of them know Kaioken

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

But afterward, right before Freeza starts fighting with no hands, they /both/ comment about how they've been holding back; Gokuu was extremely confident, so it can't be right, unless you want to suggest he was actually using Kaiou-ken x8-9 before that, but that in itself would contradict the idea that he King Kaiou /literally/ meant he was using tenfold "the entire time."

[Hitiro]

It's not the only logical explanation. Unlike Vegeta and Trunks, he also mastered the Super Saiyan form, which may have lead to an even greater benefit in his training.

The implications of him mastering the SSJ form lead to better control over it and thus giving him a much larger stamina pool to work with. I don't think its implied anywhere that mastering SSJ gives a benefit to training and frankly I don't see how it would. Sure it may allow him to train longer but the benefits would still be the same as if he was training with the form unmastered and its not like they lengthened their training, I'm pretty sure Goku said they should slow down their training till SSJ feels normal. Its like its unreasonable for people to believe Vegeta didn't master SSJ in all those years after the Cell Games saga. He clearly saw the benefit of mastering the form. And yet despite that he was still behind Goku by a large gap.

[The Monkey King]

Wow this whole 'Goku PL was actually 300,000 and he was using kaio-ken X10 all the time!' is one of the biggest cases of clutching at straws and denial I've seen on this forum. It's contradicted by the manga, the daizenshuu and character statements

Lmao @ 100% Frieza having a PL just over 10X higher than 2nd form Frieza
Lol @ 'invisible' kaio-ken

[TheMightyOzaru]

That makes even less sense. The very idea that Goku, after the Zenkai, is weaker than Freeza's First Form is just plain ridiculous. Hell it already makes no sense because Piccolo and Vegeta are just in plain awe of Goku and both of them have a power level over a million =/.

This is an old argument. And the old answer is that Goku was using Kaioken the entire time, even right at first.So, with Kaio-ken x10, Goku ends up at 3,000,000 anyways. Vegita and Piccolo are stronger than Goku at this point, but neither of them know Kaioken

Kaioken makes you red so no it is an old debunked argument that makes no sense.

[Saiga]

It's not the only logical explanation. Unlike Vegeta and Trunks, he also mastered the Super Saiyan form, which may have lead to an even greater benefit in his training.

The implications of him mastering the SSJ form lead to better control over it and thus giving him a much larger stamina pool to work with. I don't think its implied anywhere that mastering SSJ gives a benefit to training and frankly I don't see how it would. Sure it may allow him to train longer but the benefits would still be the same as if he was training with the form unmastered and its not like they lengthened their training, I'm pretty sure Goku said they should slow down their training till SSJ feels normal. Its like its unreasonable for people to believe Vegeta didn't master SSJ in all those years after the Cell Games saga. He clearly saw the benefit of mastering the form. And yet despite that he was still behind Goku by a large gap.

It's not implied that mastering Super Saiyan makes you trainer more efficiently, but then again it's not implied that Goku gained any Zenkais during his time there... guidebooks imply otherwise. I don't really see why mastering the Super Saiyan form can't result in faster growth, there are plenty of reasons why that could happen. They may be able to push themselves harder, train for longer and have shorter periods of down time, train more efficiently, etc.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I kind of have to disagree with you on this. Goku was marginally weaker than Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks in the Cell Arc. Yet all of a sudden Goku after entering the RoSaT once got stronger than all of them and was strong enough to rival Suppressed Perfect Cell in his regular SSJ form. Vegeta and Trunks entered twice and they still couldn't match (Post-RoSaT) Goku. I'm under the belief that while training with Gohan, who was increasing in strength by leaps and bounds due to more and more of his potential being released, was forced to keep up with him through Zenkai's. Its really the only logical explanation for Goku to go from being weaker than the Androids to as strong as Suppressed Perfect Cell whereas a Vegeta and Trunks who had already been in the RoSaT once and gotten stronger than the Androids and Semi-Perfect Cell were still chasing Goku even after going in there a second time.

According to the SEG, Goku's huge gains were mostly because he was constantly a Super Saiyan, meaning that the process to attain the Super Saiyan Full Power greatly increases the power.

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

[Hitiro]

According to the SEG, Goku's huge gains were mostly because he was constantly a Super Saiyan, meaning that the process to attain the Super Saiyan Full Power greatly increases the power.

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

Even if its in the SEG I can't take it as a fact. I can understand constantly being in SSJ would increase stamina as they get used to the form and how much power they need to exert to maintain it. But no matter how I look at it mastering a transformations power consumption does not equal larger gains. Unless someone can explain to me how such a thing is possible then I just refuse to except it. I just can't except that "SEG says it does." or "It gave them increased gains, just because."

[Draken]

According to the SEG, Goku's huge gains were mostly because he was constantly a Super Saiyan, meaning that the process to attain the Super Saiyan Full Power greatly increases the power.

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

Even if its in the SEG I can't take it as a fact. I can understand constantly being in SSJ would increase stamina as they get used to the form and how much power they need to exert to maintain it. But no matter how I look at it mastering a transformations power consumption does not equal larger gains. Unless someone can explain to me how such a thing is possible then I just refuse to except it. I just can't except that "SEG says it does." or "It gave them increased gains, just because."

More stamina = more training harder, faster, and more efficiently = increased gains.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I always figured that mastering Super Saiyan like so didn't just grant power all by itself, but simply worked to make your other training all the more effective and rewarding. Perhaps the SEG's info can be taken as meaning, "this is how good this type of training normally is, and THIS is how much better it becomes when you're doing this special always-Super-Saiyan thing."

[TheMightyOzaru]

Wow this whole 'Goku PL was actually 300,000 and he was using kaio-ken X10 all the time!' is one of the biggest cases of clutching at straws and denial I've seen on this forum. It's contradicted by the manga, the daizenshuu and character statements

Lmao @ 100% Freeza having a PL just over 10X higher than 2nd form Freeza
Lol @ 'invisible' kaio-ken

IKR . This whole "invisible Kaioken" is a complete joke. Plus who cares if you prefer the mistranslation? It's a mistranslation. Goku's power level is 3,000,000 and that's that. The huge Zenkai isn't even that farfetched.

[Draken]

I've read another theory out there that, if you are healed using new methods, the Zenkai will be bigger. For example, Goku's been healing through Senzu beans his entire life, so the Zenkai's he received while training on the spaceship weren't that noticeable. However, once he got on Namek and was healed by the healing pod (new method), he skyrocketed in power. Vegeta as well, his earlier Zenkai's were with the healing pod, something he used all his life before. Then, his larger Zenkai's were from new methods, the senzu bean, dende's healing powers.

[Duo]

It is a ridiculously high near-death powerup that goes beyond anything else we ever see in the series. That said, power levels had just recently been thrown out of the window and this was one way to cement that. It's ridiculous because the plot needs it to be, and that's fine.