Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

Well, I'll try, although most of it will be just repeating what was already said in the other topic.

- Coola saying "you did well enough to defeat [Freeza]" is very nonspecific (just like Goku's infamous comparison of Dabra to Cell in the Boo arc). Coola wasn't there to witness the battle, and there's a wealth of different ways it could have unfolded that wouldn't necessitate 'base Goku > 100% Freeza" there and then.
- The only halfway-official numbers we have for Coola are in reference to a video game, and not even compatible with the other two for Broly and Gogeta alongside it, so it's easily waved as irrelevant to the actual movie (and only working in the world of video games where Super Saiyan makes you 25% stronger or something!). In the older WSJ feature that gave us the Armored Squad's power levels, Coola in his 5th form was simply listed as "immeasurable" or something.
- The movie is thematically presented as a parallel to the battle with Freeza, going by the characters' appearances and abilities, suggesting that the characters are operating at similar levels of power.

I don't know if this matters for much, but the character reference in Budokai Tenkaichi 3 also states that Cooler's base form is around the strength of Freeza's final form, and we all saw how big of a boost Cooler's exclusive fifth transformation was.

I'd like to check my copy of BT3 to verify this, but it doesn't have to mean something so specific as base Goku was wrestling with a power of 120 million before Coola transformed. It just means that they have similar strength in equivalent forms, which we might have been able to guess already. Besides, from what we saw with Freeza, Coola should be bulked-up and look stressed-out as well if he were using his full power in his "true" form before transforming. So that angle suggests Coola wasn't going all-out in his true form before transforming.

All in all... Looking at the Freeza battle as a model again, Goku put up a similarly good fight against Freeza, who was holding back to test Goku before revving up his own power. We see the same sort of scenario unfold in Movie 5; Coola tests Goku, and upon verifying his worth, decides to use his full power to take him out. These sort of low-level "testing" rounds between fighters are common in Dragon Ball, especially in the movies. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

But still, look at Coola's attitude over the course of the film. During his earlier bouts with Goku, he's speculative and curious about Goku's power, but ultimately doesn't seem impressed. It's not until Goku goes Super Saiyan and smacks Coola around does it seem to really "click" for Coola how Freeza was defeated. His demeanor seems to switch from "I guess you could have managed somehow" to "oh, so THAT explains it!" Almost, dare I say, as if he were likewise trying to convince himself that base Goku could have beaten Freeza somehow, when in reality it really was all thanks to Super Saiyan.

While anyone's free to use whatever the hell they want for their own lists... I sincerely think that finding such a high battle power for Coola, multiple folds over Freeza's maximum, somehow "necessary," or insisting that something lower is impossible, is just a sign of reading into things too much.

[ZombieVito]

I actually like him at 300 million, a bit weaker than SSJ Future Trunks (320 million). Yadart Goku in SSJ will demolish him (400 million).

[RandomGuy96]

- Coola saying "you did well enough to defeat [Freeza]" is very nonspecific (just like Goku's infamous comparison of Dabra to Cell in the Boo arc). Coola wasn't there to witness the battle, and there's a wealth of different ways it could have unfolded that wouldn't necessitate 'base Goku > 100% Freeza" there and then.

But he DID say that Goku did well enough in straight combat to defeat Freeza. Whether it was 100% Freeza is debatable, but Cooler definitely knew that Freeza was killed in his final form and in straight combat, so he has no reason to assume that he didn't use at least 70% power. And it was pretty specific; he flat-out said that the prowess and power Goku showed against him in that fight they just had would be enough to defeat Freeza in his final form.

- The only halfway-official numbers we have for Coola are in reference to a video game, and not even compatible with the other two for Broly and Gogeta alongside it, so it's easily waved as irrelevant to the actual movie (and only working in the world of video games where Super Saiyan makes you 25% stronger or something!). In the older WSJ feature that gave us the Armored Squad's power levels, Coola in his 5th form was simply listed as "immeasurable" or something.

Fair enough.

- The movie is thematically presented as a parallel to the battle with Freeza, going by the characters' appearances and abilities, suggesting that the characters are operating at similar levels of power.

Except the statements made about his power really disprove that, so what you think is thematically appropriate doesn't really matter. I know that might sound rude, but I really don't get how "it resembles this storyline" can be used as an argument for battle power.

I'd like to check my copy of BT3 to verify this, but it doesn't have to mean something so specific as base Goku was wrestling with a power of 120 million before Coola transformed. It just means that they have similar strength in equivalent forms, which we might have been able to guess already. Besides, from what we saw with Freeza, Coola should be bulked-up and look stressed-out as well if he were using his full power in his "true" form before transforming. So that angle suggests Coola wasn't going all-out in his true form before transforming.

It does say that, I checked today.

Cooler wasn't bulked out, but he was in his final form which was said to be equivalent to Freeza's final form. It is unknown if the entry meant Freeza's 100% power. Freeza's max in that form without bulking up is 70% (84 million). Since Cooler clearly didn't think he could win the battle without transforming, he was probably also using his form's max, meaning that, at the very least, 70% Freeza and 70% Cooler are even, like the game suggests.

This means that to match up with his performance and Cooler's statements, Movie 5 Goku has to be at least 8 million, if you assume that he was using the invisible kaio-ken x10 (I don't think he was drawn with a kaio-ken x10 aura on Namek when he used it), which is supported by the fact that he clearly had more power in round 2 against Cooler than he did in round 1 against Cooler and his goons. 8 million would let him be even with 70% Freeza by using the kaio-ken x10. Then kaio-ken x20 Goku would have to be at least 160 million (about as as strong as pre-ROSAT Trunks or Namek Goku), and Cooler completely destroyed him...

All in all... Looking at the Freeza battle as a model again, Goku put up a similarly good fight against Freeza, who was holding back to test Goku before revving up his own power. We see the same sort of scenario unfold in Movie 5; Coola tests Goku, and upon verifying his worth, decides to use his full power to take him out. These sort of low-level "testing" rounds between fighters are common in Dragon Ball, especially in the movies. It doesn't have to be anything more than that.

The difference here is that Cooler transformed while Freeza simply powered up to 50%. Freeza was intentionally holding back a large deal of his power, while Cooler HAD to transform. Otherwise, he would have simply powered up and destroyed Goku. Cooler was also testing Goku in a different way; Freeza was just toying with him. Cooler was testing to make sure that the person he's fighting is in fact the one who bested Freeza in combat. He confirms that before transforming. Why would he suppress himself to far below Freeza's level to test a guy who killed Freeza? It seems far more appropriate that he'd fight at Freeza's level to see if this guy who supposedly killed Freeza can fight it.

But still, look at Coola's attitude over the course of the film. During his earlier bouts with Goku, he's speculative and curious about Goku's power, but ultimately doesn't seem impressed. It's not until Goku goes Super Saiyan and smacks Coola around does it seem to really "click" for Coola how Freeza was defeated.

Actually no. At the beginning, he doubts Freeza could've been beaten by a saiyan. Then after confronting Goku and seeing him not instantly die in one shot and actually retaliate with a blast (which Cooler effortlessly deflects), he starts thinking that maybe this saiyan really could've beaten Freeza. Then after squaring off against base/invisible kaio-ken x10 Goku in straight combat, he confirms that yes, the guy he's fighting definitely could've beaten Freeza.

His demeanor seems to switch from "I guess you could have managed somehow" to "oh, so THAT explains it!" Almost, dare I say, as if he were likewise trying to convince himself that base Goku could have beaten Freeza somehow, when in reality it really was all thanks to Super Saiyan.

Well... no, that's not what happened. His demeanor earlier was "You could've beaten Freeza". We know that because he flat-out says it without a bit of doubt in his voice. His demeanor after Goku transforms is "You're even stronger? Freeza must've been absolutely no match."

While anyone's free to use whatever the hell they want for their own lists... I sincerely think that finding such a high battle power for Coola, multiple folds over Freeza's maximum, somehow "necessary," or insisting that something lower is impossible, is just a sign of reading into things too much.

He doesn't have to be multifolds; having him at 240,000,000 or a similar number would still make sense. Sorry if it feels like I'm over analyzing, but I just looked at all the evidence, and I can't find a single bit of evidence that even implies that Cooler is lower than 200 million. Here's every bit of information relating to Cooler's power:

1st Round With Goku
Cooler has so far doubted that a saiyan could defeat Freeza. But upon seeing Goku best his henchmen, he gets curious. He fires a blast at Gohan. Goku jumps in the way and retaliates with his own blast, which Cooler easily deflects. Goku is left heavily injured. Conclusions:

*Cooler considers the possibility that Goku could've beaten Freeza just from that.

Encounter With Piccoloy
Cooler sees Piccolo beating up his henchmen and fighting evenly with Salza. He tells Salza to get Gohan. Piccolo turns to Cooler and mistakes him for Freeza, even yelling Freeza's name. Cooler responds by blasting him. Conclusions:

*Cooler knows that Freeza was killed in his final form.

2nd Round With Goku
Cooler tells Goku to show him the power that he used to defeat Freeza. Goku says that he won't disappoint him, powers up, and attacks. A brief fight ensues where the combatants are roughly even, with Goku taking a slight advantage. Cooler is clearly putting effort into the fight, as he takes several hits and has an angered look on his face the entire time. After that, he says to Goku: "Hmph, you do as well as I expected. Enough to have defeated [Freeza]." Conclusions:

*Cooler knows that Freeza was defeated in straight combat in his final form, not simply sneak-attacked or taken off guard. We know this because he says Goku did well enough to defeat Freeza by gauging nothing but his performance in a fight- he clearly did not think Freeza was killed in anything other than a straight fist fight.
*From a fight where Goku and him were roughly even, he concludes that Goku is strong enough to defeat Freeza.

3rd Round With Goku
Cooler transforms into his fifth form. Goku goes kaio-ken x20 to try to combat him. Despite seemingly having the advantage on Cooler's base when he was, at most, using the kaio-ken x10, Goku is completely outclassed against this form of Cooler, not even landing a single hit. Cooler even tanks a Kamehameha. Notably, he doesn't just ignore it, he flies through it with no damage, not even being knocked back. This greatly shocks Goku, despite Goku already knowing that Cooler was stronger than Freeza (which he states earlier). Conclusions:

*Movie 5 Goku considers a kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha strong enough to kill someone stronger than Freeza at 100%; he is clearly surprised when it doesn't work on Cooler (in the English dub, he screams "NO WAY!"). 100% Freeza < Goku's estimate for Cooler < kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha <<<<<<< Cooler.
*Fifth form Cooler is much stronger than base Cooler.
*The Goku that Cooler just destroyed is at least twice as strong as the guy that he said was stronger than Freeza.
*By that logic, fifth form Cooler has to be way over twice as strong as Freeza.

Supplemental Material
*Cooler is a boss in Budokai 3 who fights Goku after he defeats Freeza and Super Saiyan Vegeta. The pre-fight dialogue has Goku saying that Cooler is even stronger than Freeza while Cooler is still in his base form.
*A V-Jump entry gave his final form power as 470,000,000.
*The character reference for Budokai Tenkaichi 3 states that Cooler's base power is similar to the power of Freeza in his final form.

Accuse me of reading too far into things all you like. But nothing- absolutely nothing- suggests that Cooler is as weak as you say he is, and everything says he isn't.

I actually like him at 300 million, a bit weaker than SSJ Future Trunks (320 million). Yadart Goku in SSJ will demolish him (400 million).

Cooler is a great deal stronger than Future Trunks, who was only on the level of Goku on Namek. Goku on Namek was 25% stronger than Freeza. Cooler is over twice as strong as Freeza at least. Besides, you don't use official numbers anyway, so I wasn't really referring to you when I said that. I was under the assumption that the person who rated Cooler below 200 million had Namek Goku at 150,000,000 and 100% Freeza at 120,000,000. But hey, at least with those numbers, Cooler would win in a fight against Trunks.

[Kaboom]

Believe whatever you want, then, but you're still reading more into the dialogue than is necessary.

[RandomGuy96]

How am I the one reading too far into things? I'm taking things at face value; I was only forced to over-analyze things to disprove your theories that rely on ignoring all the evidence. It seems like you're the one who's reading too much into it, by completely making up conclusions and ignoring evidence. Like I said, what in-universe information given in any source suggests that Cooler is below 200 million? I have looked at every bit of information and can't find it. Everything suggests he's over 200 million. To put it simply, he says that the person he's fighting can defeat Freeza in straight combat in his final form, and then he transforms and becomes several times stronger than that person, so logically he should be a few times stronger than Freeza. Again, I really don't see how I'm the one reading too much into it; in fact, it seems like you're the one who's reading too much into it by trying to completely twist the meaning of that sentence into something that basically means the complete opposite, even though all information given supports my conclusion.

[Kaboom]

The problem is that you're taking a line of dialogue with a certain amount of ambiguity to it, inserting other conditions to it not present otherwise, and deciding there's only one possible interpretation. I'm not setting out to disprove anything you're saying, and you're allowed to put Coola and Goku wherever you want if you make your own list or something. But you asked for the reasoning to the contrary, and I provided it. That's all, really. I'm not looking for a debate, here.

[RandomGuy96]

The problem is that you're taking a line of dialogue with a certain amount of ambiguity to it, inserting other conditions to it not present otherwise, and deciding there's only one possible interpretation

It's not ambiguous in the least. He says that Goku did well enough in straight combat to defeat Freeza in his final form. I did not add any conditions. That's as simple as it gets. Then Goku multiplies said power (which, again, was strong enough to defeat Freeza) and still gets demolished by Cooler.

I'm not setting out to disprove anything you're saying, and you're allowed to put Coola and Goku wherever you want if you make your own list or something. But you asked for the reasoning to the contrary, and I provided it. That's all, really. I'm not looking for a debate, here.

But... you didn't really give any reasoning. You just said that you thought it would be thematically appropriate to put them at that level without actually saying what evidence supports that conclusion. I think it would be thematically appropriate to make first form Freeza weaker than Ginyu, but that doesn't make it true. Here's what's stated or shown in the movie without conjecture:

Movie 5 Goku >>> Yardrat Goku >>> Namek Goku

Goku confirms he had been to Yardrat in the sequel, and Roshi says that at the beginning of the movie Goku had got much stronger since returning to Earth. So Goku got two major power-ups (three, if you count the zenkai) before facing Cooler. Why do you keep assuming that Cooler's statements aren't accurate, and that it's impossible for Movie 5 Goku to be at, say, 9 million in base? All information given relating to Cooler's power would support that.

Goku also considered his kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha to be strong enough to defeat someone who was stronger than Freeza's max. Cooler wasn't even affected. That's a BIG gap. So...

Final Form Cooler >>> Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha > Goku's estimate for someone stronger than Freeza > Kaio-Ken x20 Goku > invisible Kaio-Ken x10/base Goku > Freeza's final form

[saberman90]

What do you guys think about these power levels? (I didn't make this)

Are they low, okay or high?

[TheMightyOzaru]

What do you guys think about these power levels? (I didn't make this)

Are they low, okay or high?

They are really bad.

[RandomGuy96]

I like how it's put together, but reading it, it's actually pretty terrible. It disregards not only official numbers, but statements from the manga (e.g. having Reccoome above 60,000, having second zenkai Vegeta above 30,000, et cetera).

He also seems to haxx certain characters to death and disregard canon information in the process. Vegeta at 10 million vs Freeza? Tien at 600,000 when Mecha Freeza arrived? Mecha Freeza and Trunks both being way stronger than Namek Goku? Both of them being rougly even with Yardrat Goku? Really?

[Kaboom]

Yeah, a lot of it looks pretty inspired, but other things are needlessly changed. And some things just seem downright dumb, like Kuririn ending up weaker than Yamcha in the Androids arc, with Tenshinhan nearly 10x stronger than either of them.

[RandomGuy96]

Yeah. Once again, I like how it was put together, but the actual information leaves a lot to be desired. Vegeta and Tien are both haxxed to death. 19 is for some reason stronger than 20 (who's weaker than Tien!) despite both the manga and guidebooks stating otherwise. Mecha Freeza and Future Trunks are both about even with Yardrat Goku, even though it's pretty clear that he's way stronger than either of them. Piccolo is only a bit stronger than Tien and far weaker than 19. Imperfect Cell is only 20% stronger than Kamiccolo. Tien's Tri-Beam is strong enough to completely obliterate Imperfect Cell and the androids in one hit. And Mr.Satan/Hercule/Mark/Whatever is as strong as Master Roshi? What the hell? Oh, and Goten and Trunks are weaker than Mecha Freeza. Kibito is stronger than Piccolo. Videl is stronger than Roshi. Spopovich and Yamu are in the millions. Majin Vegeta is ten times stronger than Cell Games Gohan...

I'm just going to stop.

EDIT: Wait, no. This has got to take the cake. Buu Saga Tien is as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell. Wow.

[Saiga]

Aww, I wanted to create something in this style and someone beat me to it. That's what I get for being lazy I suppose :V

The Saiyan arc numbers are hilarious, though. Give Kuririn his lowest reading (which might not actually be his) for his full power (despite being suppressed), then give him his highest reading as his powerful technique. On it's own, it's not really bad, believe what you want and all... but then you take Tenshinhan and Yamcha's readings as their full power, and give Tenshinhan a way higher number for the Kikoho (seriously, 100 points short of Nappa?). Have some consistency, dang it!

EDIT: Wait, no. This has got to take the cake. Buu Saga Tenshinhan is as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell. Wow.

That's not so bad. I've seen plenty of lists that put him up there with Super Perfect Cell.

[RandomGuy96]

You could still create something in that style. Hell, I would too if I wasn't so lazy. And I'd include the movies. Because I like the movies.

That's not so bad. I've seen plenty of lists that put him up there with Super Perfect Cell.

Wow. Good thing he didn't show up at Babidi's ship; he'd have handed Dabura his ass. I think the most haxxed character on that list is Vegeta, in all periods. A close second would be Tien. Apparently he could've easily defeated all of the androids with his Tri-Beam, but instead chose to heroically let himself get choked out. It was all part of his master plan; he feigned defeat so that the Z-fighters would have to use the ROSAT and be ready for the arrival of Dabura seven years later. And he didn't show up and kill Dabura with that haxxed Tri-Beam because he wanted the heroes to save themselves for once, and not have to rely on the mighty Tien, who became more powerful than the former galactic overlord by training in the mountains for 10 years.

This list not going by official multipliers is the least of its concerns...

[Saiga]

Yeah, I suppose I will when I get around to it. Although I might do it more in the style of that fake V-Jump scan to fit more characters to a page.

[RandomGuy96]

So Saiga, random question. We were talking about Cooler's power a few posts ago; where do you have him? I recall you saying on the versus thread that you thought he was stronger than 100% Freeza in his base form.

[dbzfan7]

I could never think of numbers. I just go by what is stated or at least hinted to who is stronger. No matter how many times I think of a list, it ruins my perspective of things as some work and some don't. This could be why Toriyama dropped them all together as the numbers just get insane.

[Saiga]

So Saiga, random question. We were talking about Cooler's power a few posts ago; where do you have him? I recall you saying on the versus thread that you thought he was stronger than 100% Freeza in his base form.

I never actually put any numbers to movie characters, but I guess he'd be between 2.4 and 6 billion assuming he and base Goku were around Freeza's 120 million mark.

[RandomGuy96]

You don't think Goku had an invisible kaio-ken x10 in that movie? I think he made the same sounds and he wasn't drawn with the kaio-ken aura on Namek until he used kaio-ken x20.

[Saiga]

You don't think Goku had an invisible kaio-ken x10 in that movie? I think he made the same sounds and he wasn't drawn with the kaio-ken aura on Namek until he used kaio-ken x20.

Nah, I don't believe in the invisible Kaio-ken theory, even in the anime. But what do you mean about the sounds?