How did Piccolo become good?

[Insertclevername]

I think Piccolo officially became too 'Kami' the moment he started chastising Goku during the Cell Game. Saiyan arc Piccolo would have been much less sympathetic.

Nah, that was more due to his relationship with Gohan. If it he was chastising Gokuu about someone else, then I could see where your going.

[Hades]

I get "abandoning", but torture?

What else would you call beating the snot out of a child for 6 months, even if it was supposed to get some "uber-hard man!"

First of all, different people have different reactions to given situations and Gohan was never a completely normal kid to begin with. Nevermind that he single-handedly cracked the ribs of a planet-busting warrior, he was half-saiyan. As evidence, after 6 months a living alone in the wilderness, surrounded by dinosaurs and what not, not only was he fine, but he was cheerful and dealing with those difficulties as easy as Goku did. So despite his age, his hide is tougher than people give him credit for.

He still had the mentality of a human (and was raised as such for 4-5 years.). At the very least, we ought to be seeing PTSD after the Saiyan saga, and complete insanity by the Namek Saga, because any child would snap in those conditions. Heck, Gohan snapping and going insane would have been a better story than the generic "we must get stronger to beat the villain of the week!".

Agan, I recommend playing Spec Ops: The Line, just to understand what i'm talking about.

[Duo]

AT confirmed Piccolo always trains, even on peacefull days.

What's an AT?

Nah, that was more due to his relationship with Gohan. If it he was chastising Gokuu about someone else, then I could see where your going.

Just seems somewhat out of place to me, unless you consider heavy Kami influence. It was only a few years prior that Piccolo dropped that four year old off in the middle of the wilderness and left him for six months.

[Michsi]

What else would you call beating the snot out of a child for 6 months, even if it was supposed to get some "uber-hard man!"

Training! DB level training, which we have seen before. Torture implies malicious intent with the one and only purpose is to cause someone pain and anguish.

He still had the mentality of a human (and was raised as such for 4-5 years.). At the very least, we ought to be seeing PTSD after the Saiyan saga, and complete insanity by the Namek Saga, because any child would snap in those conditions. Heck, Gohan snapping and going insane would have been a better story than the generic "we must get stronger to beat the villain of the week!".

Even though ABED had the best argument, will add my two cents :Again, he was not a normal kid and the fact that he was so well off and happy after 6 months of solitude with no formal training whatsoever on how to survive and that he even managed to learn to use his ki all on his own is ample proof that there is no point in comparing him with other 5 year olds, mentality or otherwise.

I don't know why the PTSD is so appealing to some or why it would have added to the story? I'm pretty sudre there are plenty of stories out there that deal with the fragility of the human mind or whatever, but the author mentioned plenty of times that he doesn't do these types of stories. This is a shonen battle manga, with the main target audience being 12 year old boys. Having a kid snap and go insane, that's for another genre.

I'm all for giving the story a little more depth to it's charcters, but deffinetely not to the extend you are suggesting.

[Hades]

Training! DB level training, which we have seen before. Torture implies malicious intent with the one and only purpose is to cause someone pain and anguish.

Er, Piccolo was quite malicious in his training, when he was beating the snot out of Gohan at random (Both psychological and physical torture in the sense he was making him paranoid, and was beating him at the same time). He also hated Goku at this stage, and thought the best way to get at him would be to turn his son evil.

Even though ABED had the best argument, will add my two cents :Again, he was not a normal kid and the fact that he was so well off and happy after 6 months of solitude with no formal training whatsoever on how to survive and that he even managed to learn to use his ki all on his own is ample proof that there is no point in comparing him with other 5 year olds, mentality or otherwise.

Doesn't matter. He had the mind of a human and was raised as such (if he were raised on Vegeta, that would be another story). He was thrown into a training environment that would have any military say "that's too brutal and gives no benefit whatsoever".

[Michsi]

Er, Piccolo was quite malicious in his training, when he was beating the snot out of Gohan at random

What? When? When did we see him beat Gohan at random?

Doesn't matter. He had the mind of a human and was raised as such (if he were raised on Vegeta, that would be another story). He was thrown into a training environment that would have any military say "that's too brutal and gives no benefit whatsoever".

And I'm saying, it DOES matter. The same way you are arguing that a normal human should have PTSD after that experience , I could say that the fact that he doesn't just proves that having been raised as normal human kid up until then is irrelevant. Due to his saiyan heritage, he was more than equipped, physically AND mentally, to deal with this type of life.

I'm not saying that what he went trough wasn't hard or that it's okay for a little kid to be sujected to this type of training, but people keep forgetting that the fate of the entire world was at stake . Also , no benefit whatsoever? He saved the world.

[Hades]

What? When? When did we see him beat Gohan at random?

That was DBZ Abridged, sorry.

And I'm saying, it DOES matter. The same way you are arguing that a normal human should have PTSD after that experience , I could say that the fact that he doesn't just proves that having been raised as normal human kid up until then is irrelevant. Due to his saiyan heritage, he was more than equipped, physically AND mentally, to deal with this type of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_children

I'm not saying that what he went trough wasn't hard or that it's okay for a little kid to be sujected to this type of training, but people keep forgetting that the fate of the entire world was at stake . Also , no benefit whatsoever? He saved the world.

Ah yes, the "HARD MEN (or Namekian) MAKING THE HARD DECISIONS!" meme that is prevalent in so much fiction.

[Michsi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_children

Ummm, aside from the fact this seemed to be mostly just myths, Gohan's behaviour after 6 months in the wilderness resembles nothing what is described there. And again, this is for normal human children.

Ah yes, the "HARD MEN (or Namekian) MAKING THE HARD DECISIONS!" meme that is prevalent in so much fiction.

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Anyway it'd say "the end justifies the means" fits better.

[Hades]

Ummm, aside from the fact this seemed to be mostly just myths, Gohan's behaviour after 6 months in the wilderness resembles nothing what is described there. And again, this is for normal human children.

Missing the point. I was pointing towards Gohan being raised as a human rather than a Saiyan rather than being abandoned in the woods.

I'm not sure what you mean here.
Anyway it'd say "the end justifies the means" fits better.

The "HARD MEN" thing is basically when designated heroes do evil shit and justify themselves by saying they "had to make the hard decisions"

[Michsi]

Missing the point. I was pointing towards Gohan being raised as a human rather than a Saiyan rather than being abandoned in the woods.

And I am saying, again, it was obviously irrelevant. Gohan cuts down dinosaurs and learns to use ki without anybody ever teaching him anything about it (without becoming a feral child, if that description is anything to go by) just proves that just because he was raised as a normal human didn't mean he was one. Piccolo would not have taken him if he were.

The "HARD MEN" thing is basically when designated heroes do evil shit and justify themselves by saying they "had to make the hard decisions"

Does that still count when it's a proven fact that that "evil" decision really did justify it. We even have Roshi confirm it when they were contemplating if they should go and get Gohan, that it was necessary for him to go through all that.

[ABED]

He was thrown into a training environment that would have any military say "that's too brutal and gives no benefit whatsoever".

It's a moot point since we're dealing with a world where people can jump miles into the air after having a several hundred kilogram turtle shell on their back. Clearly that island had a benefit, it cut Gohan off from the outside world and forced him to rely on his power, which Piccolo knew he could do. If Gohan didn't, then Gohan would die, but Piccolo was sure they would likely die at the hands of the Saiyans anyways. What should Piccolo have done with Gohan? Why was what he did evil?

Your real world analogies don't have much validity since their world bears little resemblance to our own.

[Draken]

If I'm remembering right, Kaio explained that Namekians are naturally good, and that the Nameless Namekian only ended up with evil in his heart due to his exposure to humans.

Piccolo was a clone/reincarnation of King Piccolo, so he's basically the same being.

The fact that he became good suggests they're not quite the same to me, but if that doesn't work for you, I guess you'll have to keep looking for an explanation you like.

Edit: Oh, I should add, Kami and Popo talk about Piccolo being different even before Gohan has a chance to corrupt him. Kami points out that Raditz's soul was able to go to the afterlife, which would be impossible if he'd been killed by a demon like Piccolo Daimao was. "He's still evil, but not the Daimao of old," they said. When the change happened is unclear; it could be that he was different from birth, or it could have been some affect Goku had on him when they fought.

I think that the first changes began when Goku spared him after their fight. That suprised him, because, having his father's memories, Piccolo would never have expected the one to kill his father to show mercy to him. Goku changed considerably in the years prior to the 23rd Budokai, and was not the same person who killed his father.
I think the second change occured after the fight with Raditz. At this point, Piccolo had achieved the goal he was created for by being the one to kill Goku. I believe this allowed him to move on with his life, and develop as his own person.
The final straw was his bonding with Gohan. Once he sacrificed himself, he was pretty much in the good guy camp from then on out
As I see it, Piccolo is reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, similar to Uub being a reincarnation of Kid Buu.

Goku has always been a merciful one really, Piccolo Jr. didn't do anything crazy terrible while his father had ordered his best friend's death and was threatening another close friend. Big surprise he killed daimao.

[Toadster]

I remember in filler, before the 23rd budokai started, Piccolo saved a mother and her child from falling debris. This was when he was still pure evil. I never understood why he saved them, other than I guess it's foreshadowing to him turning good?

[Bussani]

This was when he was still pure evil.

Was he? There's no way for us to know if Piccolo Junior was born pure evil like his father/previous life/whatever, as far as I remember.

[Toadster]

Either way, he still was evil at that time, pure evil or not.

[Bussani]

Yeah, he had to be. Kami flat out says that he's still evil after he kills Raditz and Goku--just not as evil or the same kind of evil or whatever.

[Marco Polo]

I remember in filler, before the 23rd budokai started, Piccolo saved a mother and her child from falling debris. This was when he was still pure evil. I never understood why he saved them, other than I guess it's foreshadowing to him turning good?

He saved them because they're not Goku. His purpose in life at that point was exclusively to kill Goku.

[ThePrinceOfSaiyans]

Piccolo was changed by Gohans love and affection despite the harsh training he was put through.

I feel Piccolo was always partly good ever since he was born, he even saved a mother and her child at one point.

I feel most of his evilness is from his previous form having an urge to kill Goku which becomes his goal when born.

[Godo]

This was when he was still pure evil.

Was he? There's no way for us to know if Piccolo Junior was born pure evil like his father/previous life/whatever, as far as I remember.

I don't remember exactly where, but Gohan told during his training with Piccolo that Goku had told him that Piccolo Jr. wasn't as evil as his father. So apparently it was already obvious at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.
And also, he didn't seem as much evil as vengeful, fulfilling someone else's task, completing his only reason for his existence.

About him training Gohan, didn't seem that bad IMO. Piccolo did the only thing he knew, and I doubt that it was out of some kind of sadism. We are asking about a creature with limited human interaction and no idea about how he should train someone else.
He probably used the same means as he used as a child before becoming stronger. He probably lived in the wilderness and started fending off against wild animals and such, and after that he went through some vigorous training.
That's how I see it.

[DBZ Mick]

Maybe it was just interacting with people. Daimao seemed to kill first talk later except to his own spawn. Piccolo interacted more with people.

Something also happened during the 5 years after the 23rd Budokai which could be interesting to explore.