Movies & GT are all shot out of a cannon ("Is it canon?!")

[Koga316]

So I was having a discussion with some friends and one of them stated that Toriyama has stated that the filler, movies, and GT are cannon. He linked me to the production guide which is here. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/production/toriyama/. From my understanding Toriyama did DB and DBZ the 3 specials (Cardock Trunks, 2008) and is behind Battle Of Gods. I know he oversaw GT and did create some of the characters but had nothing to do with the story of them, the OVA, and movies 1-13. I've always considered them non cannon and there's SO MANY plot holes. I can get some of the filler my have been ideas he had that never made it into the manga. But for many years I've understood that the ova, movies, and GT arent cannon. This isnt meant to start a heated argument because we arent having a heated one. I just dont believe its cannon nor have I ever read anywhere that Toriyama has said all of it is cannon. I have no problem with being wrong but....I dont believe this and cant find anything where Toriyama has said this. So..whats the deal about all this. Have I been wrong for all these years?

[hleV]

There's no answer to your question. It's up to you to decide which of the official media you personally consider true to the original story (if you care enough, that is). Most of said media isn't really "compatible" with the manga due to plotholes, inconsistencies and contradictions.
The closest thing to "canon" would perhaps be the statement that Battle of Gods is part of the "official history".

[Gaffer Tape]

Despite what your friend says, I am highly doubtful that filler, movies, and GT can be used as a heavy-duty, projectile weapon. I think he's pulling your leg.

[penguintruth]

They can always be your head cannon.

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

Cardock

http://www.cardock.ie/ ?

[B]

I'm almost not convinced this is a real thread. To give you the benefit of the doubt, nobody in any official capacity has ever stated what and what doesn't constitute as "canon" or "official." The most you will get is propping up of the original manga; recent works have capitalized on the idea of Toriyama contributing in some capacity to their stories. As for plot holes and things not making sense, it happens. Everything fits with itself.

Toriyama never oversaw the Bardock TV Special. He reworked character designs originally from Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru. He came up with the story for the 2008 Special, but the actual dialog and script is from anime screenwriter Takao Koyama. He collaborated and reworked the script for the new movie with Yusuke Watanabe.

The guy is never going to come out and outline any of this for us. My favorite thing I've read today is actually a quote from his brand new interview when asked about how certain characters ended up after the series ended:
"First, a word of warning: I am a considerably arbitrary creator, so I’ve imagined what happens after for these three for the first time just now. The possibility that I have made mistakes about the characters’ backgrounds is great. Proceed with caution."

[Koga316]

The part that REALLY made me wonder to where my mind is half blown is him saying Toriyama has said that isnt all canon. I've found nothing on this. If the man himself says it...then ok. Its would be a complete cluster ****....but ok. Until then...until I see that proof...I refuse to believe all that is cannon.

And yes this is a real thread. I was mostly looking for if anyone knew of the saying by Toriyama that it is all canon. but yea..very serious here

[DragonBoxZTheMovies]

The part that REALLY made me wonder to where my mind is half blown is him saying Toriyama has said that isnt all canon. I've found nothing on this. If the man himself says it...then ok. Its would be a complete cluster ****....but ok. Until then...until I see that proof...I refuse to believe all that is cannon.

And yes this is a real thread. I was mostly looking for if anyone knew of the saying by Toriyama that it is all canon. but yea..very serious here

I don't think Toriyama himself understands or knows what "canon" is.

[AnimeMaakuo]

There is no official canon for Dragon Ball.

[Bussani]

The part that REALLY made me wonder to where my mind is half blown is him saying Toriyama has said that isnt all canon. I've found nothing on this. If the man himself says it...then ok. Its would be a complete cluster ****....but ok. Until then...until I see that proof...I refuse to believe all that is cannon.

And yes this is a real thread. I was mostly looking for if anyone knew of the saying by Toriyama that it is all canon. but yea..very serious here

There's no sign that Toriyama knows what the word canon is. I don't even know what the equivalent word would be in Japanese, if there even is one. I imagine he had to have some concept of what "happened" in the story when he wrote it, but I think it's safe to say that he doesn't even remember the story in enough detail to even begin to say what's canon to what, even if he wanted to (see B's quote above).

Long story short, no, he's never outright said that anything is or isn't canon, and neither has anyone else in any official capacity. Toriyama and Toei don't talk like that.

PS: The word is canon. A cannon is a weapon that shoots cannonballs.

[AnimeMaakuo]

Toriyama hasn't said anything is canon. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that the word "canon" pertained only to scripture and literature.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You may wanna change cannon to canon, there is no official canon to this series. If you want something to be canon, it's canon. I like to think most things are canon using the multiverse theory.

[JulieYBM]

They happened where they happened.

[Koga316]

You mean like each in their own universe? Then yea, that makes more sense. But all together? IMPOSSIBLE I SAY! >_<

[JulieYBM]

You mean like each in their own universe? Then yea, that makes more sense. But all together? IMPOSSIBLE I SAY! >_<

Yes. Everything happens where everything happens. You can even break it down episode by episode, comic chapter by comic chapter, panel by panel or video game by video game. Everything happens where everything happens. Living by that rule of thumb will extend your life.

[fogdark]

The way I see it, if the character designs, power, and timeline don't mess with too much with the manga, then I consider it the movie/OVA/Episode/Series canon. The manga is the only thing we know for certain that it's canon. What happened in the manga is official. So what I see on other mediums, if they don't contradict the manga, then they could've happened.
GT is the only thing I want but can't add to my canon. It's so full of wonderful ideas, but at the same time is filled with inconsistencies, plot holes, and things that contradict the manga, that it's not funny.

[Rocketman]

I move that the moderators turn every thread that misspells "canon" as "cannon" into an AC/DC appreciation thread.





FIRE!

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

I pretty much agree with what Fogdark has said, except my canon is just anything Toriyama is involved with quite deeply. If he isn't involved in a movie/OVA/episode/Series story it's a big no-no for me.

[Hellspawn28]

The manga is view as canon since most franchises have a general rule that the original source material is view as canon depending on the show/book. I feel like not everything in DB can be view as canon if there is no official canon. Most franchises have no official canon like the Wizard of Oz for example and most fans don't view Return of Oz or the new Oz movie canon because L. Frank Baum had nothing to do with them.

[DemonRin]

The question of what is "Canon" is something that pretty much nobody can agree upon, so most people go by what they personally believe to be Canon. Honestly, Toriyama scarcely remembers bits from his own series, he forgot Lunch while he was writing it. Trusting him to state what "counts" or doesn't isn't really reliable.
The default most people go to is "The manga is canon" because in this case, it's the original work and everything else is an adaptation of it, which is where most of the plotholes come from.

Personally, for me, it's Canon if it fits into the story without incident. IE, its prescience does not create any plotholes, which negates GT and most of the movies. I'll lay them out real quick here:

The DB movies are ALL Modified re-tellings of certain portions of the series. Legend of Shenlong is the hunt for the Dragonballs, Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle is Son and Kuririn's training arc, Mystical Grand Adventure is a mashup of both Tenkaichi Budokai arcs and the Red Ribbon Army. None of these fit in canon.

Movie 1: Son is alive, Kuririn knows who Gohan is, but Gohan hasn't been trained by Piccolo yet. Unless a day went by that wasn't depicted between when Kuririn met Gohan and before Raditz showed up, this movie can't work.
Movie 2: Gohan has already met everyone and appears to be Trained, Son is Alive and is not in the hospital recuperating. Nobody is at Namek. There wasn't a point where all 3 of these things are true simultaneously at this point in the series.
Movie 3: Same reasoning as 2 Plus Yamucha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu being alive and involved in the plot.
Movie 4: Everyone is alive, Nobody is on Namek, Gohan has already met Higher Dragon, yet Son can't go Super Saiyan on command.
Movie 5: This COULD Work as being a camping trip they go on before training to fight the Cyborgs, if Piccolo not being with them in the beginning and Son not being able to go Super Saiyan on command is ignored. I personally don't count it as Canon for this reason. Son told Trunks when they spoke that he could now go SS on command.
Movie 6: This fits if you allow 5 to fit with the above rationalization. Otherwise, it doesn't.
Movie 7: Takes place after 17 kills Gero but before Gohan could go SS. Nobody seems worried in the slightest about 16,17, 18, or Cell.
Movie 8: Gohan can go Super Saiyan, Son is still alive, Son and Gohan spend a portion of the movie not in their Super Saiyan Forms. Nobody seems the least bit worried about the Cyborgs or Cell. Only place this MIGHT fit is during the 7 day wait for the Cell games, but Son and Gohan should have been SS the entire movie because they were trying to naturalize that form during that time.
Movie 9: Fits without issue. You simply need to assume Trunks came back sometime to visit after the defeat of Cell and that Gohan couldn't go SS2 on command at first. (Son DID state to Trunks it was hard to do SS1 on Command at first)
Movie 10: Doesn't fit for its own reasons, but mostly because 8 doesn't
Movie 11: same as 10
Movie 12: The only time Son and Vegeta were dead at the same time, Boo was still a threat and Son spent that entire time on the Kaioshin planet.
Movie 13: Fits perfectly between the last two chapters of the manga if you rationalize that Mr. Satan and Boo were away, so neither got involved in the fight.

GT: Gohan's Mystic powerup is ignored, The Black Star Dragon Balls have ALWAYS been there but were NEVER mentioned?... Character strength levels being DRASTICALLY inconsistent with DBZ and internally within GT itself, IE: Why do Son, Trunks, and Pan have so many problems fighting everyone they fought before Baby? Freeza and Cell are somehow immortal in Hell, but Son told Vegeta during his fight with Boo that if he died he'd die for good.

I also consider Burdock to be fully canon because not only does it fit without incident, but Toriyama referenced it in the manga.
This is a personal thing... but I consider the Anime version of the Trunks special to be canon over the Manga because I think it was presented better. But that's just me.