Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Saiga]

You didn't have a power level for Super Saiyan God.

[JulieYBM]

You didn't have a power level for Super Saiyan God.

Damn!

Son Gokuu: stronger than his Majin Boo arc self, still weaker than Freeza in his base form and weaker than Beers even as a Super Saiyan God.

[Vice]

New power level list because my old one's a piece of shit:

SAIYAN SAGA

Goku 416
-Kaio Training 8,000
-Kaio-Ken 16,000
-Kaio-Ken x3 24,000
-Kaio-Ken x4 32,000

Piccolo 408
-Training 2,250

Gohan 1
-Enraged 1,305
-Training 981
-Enraged 2,800

Krillin 206
-Training 1,770

Yamcha 177
-Training 1,480

Tien 250
-Training 1,830

Chaozu 145
-Training 600

Master Roshi 139

Saibaman 1,200

Raditz 1,200

Nappa 7,500

Vegeta 18,000
-Ozaru 180,000



FREEZA SAGA

Gohan 1,500
-Potential Tapped 16,000
-vs. Freeza 50,000
-Enraged 880,000
-Healed 200,000
-Enraged 1,500,000

Krillin 1,500
-Potential Tapped 12,000
-vs. Freeza 27,000

Vegeta 24,000
-vs. Ginyu Force 35,000
-Healed 70,000
-vs. Freeza 525,000
-Healed 2,000,000

Cui 18,000

Dodoria 22,000

Zarbon 23,000
-Transformed 28,000

Guldo 2,000

Recoome 45,000

Jeice 45,000

Burter 45,000

Captain Ginyu 120,000
-as Goku 23,000

Nail 42,000

Piccolo 1,100,000

Goku 90,000
-Kaio-Ken 180,000
-Healed 3,000,000
-Kaio-Ken x10 30,000,000
-Kaio-Ken x20 60,000,000
-Final Zenkai 15,000,000
-Super Saiyan 150,000,000

Freeza 530,000
-2nd Form 1,000,000
-3rd Form 1,700,000
-4th Form 3,000,000
-50% Full Power 60,000,000
-100% Full Power 120,000,000



CELL SAGA

Goku 30,000,000
-Super Saiyan 300,000,000
-ROSAT Training 2,400,000,000
-Super Saiyan 24,000,000,000


Gohan 3,000,000
-ROSAT Training 2,850,000,000
-Super Saiyan 28,500,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2 85,500,000,000

Vegeta 35,000,000
-Super Saiyan 350,000,000
-ROSAT Training 210,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2,100,000,000
-Ultra Super Saiyan 2,700,000,000
-2nd ROSAT 1,100,000,000
-Super Saiyan 11,000,000,000

Trunks 25,000,000
-Super Saiyan 250,000,000
-ROSAT Training 200,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2,000,000,000
-Ultra Super Saiyan 3,000,000,000
-2nd ROSAT 1,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 10,000,000,000

Piccolo 180,000,000
-Merged 450,000,000
-ROSAT Training 700,000,000

Krillin 300,000

Tien 500,000

Yamcha 200,000

Android 19 145,000,000

Android 20 165,000,000

Android 17 450,000,000

Android 18 425,000,000

Android 16 540,000,000

Cell Jr. 12,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell 400,000,000
-Human Absorbed 550,000,000
-Semi-Perfect 1,700,000,000
-Perfect 42,000,000,000
-Ultra Perfect 63,000,000,000
-Super Perfect 84,000,000,000



BUU SAGA

Goku 5,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 50,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2 100,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3 400,000,000,000

Gohan 3,550,000,000
-Super Saiyan 35,500,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2 71,000,000,000
-Mystic 65,000,000,000,000

Vegeta 4,250,000,000
-Super Saiyan 42,500,000,000
-Super Saiyan 2 85,000,000,000
-Majin 100,000,000,000

Goten 300,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3,000,000,000

Trunks 310,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3,100,000,000

Piccolo 840,000,000

Krillin 300,000

Android 18 425,000,000

Tien 550,000

Mr. Satan 7

Videl 9

Shin 1,500,000,000

Kibitto 1,000,000,000

Kibitto-Kai 25,000,000,000

Spopovitch 45

Yamu 45

Pui-Pui 1,300,000,000

Yakon 3,000,000,000

Dabura 36,000,000,000

Gotenks 625,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 6,250,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 3 50,000,000,000,000

Fat Buu 250,000,000,000
-Evil Buu 175,000,000,000
-Good Buu 75,000,000,000
-Super Buu 55,500,000,000,000
-Super Gotenks Buu 105,500,840,000,000
-Super Piccolo Buu 55,501,450,000,000
-Super Gohan Buu 120,501,450,000,000
-Buff Buu 67,000,000,000,000
-Kid Buu 400,000,000,000

Vegetto 70,000,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 700,000,000,000,000

Sorry about the alignment issues.

[RandomGuy96]

Was gonna say something about some of your numbers until I realized you ignored official power levels and multipliers, so never mind.

[Kaboom]

Was gonna say something about some of your numbers until I realized you ignored official power levels and multipliers, so never mind.

Saiyan-arc Piccolo would like a word with you.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay, I did that one change... but I was mostly referring to the multipliers. Not saying it's necessarily bad, but I don't think there's any point in commenting on the oddities of a list if we don't build our lists on the same basic foundation.

[Vice]

Well, I went with a 10x multiplier because that's what Toriyama said he had in mind while writing the story, which explains the Buu Arc perfectly, so far be it for me to argue with him. People don't like it because of the Kaio-Ken which, yes it's a 20x increase but it's only momentary and you have to use it multiple times to get anywhere while it harms the user's body. Super Saiyan comes with a x10 boost, which is constant, without any of the other drawbacks.

Anyway, just how I feel.

[ZombieVito]

Nice list but it pains me to see Piccolo that low after the RoSaT and for the love of god guys, get over it. Not everyone will use the "official" (which most of them don't make sense) power levels.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, I went with a 10x multiplier because that's what Toriyama said he had in mind while writing the story, which explains the Buu Arc perfectly, so far be it for me to argue with him. People don't like it because of the Kaio-Ken which, yes it's a 20x increase but it's only momentary and you have to use it multiple times to get anywhere while it harms the user's body. Super Saiyan comes with a x10 boost, which is constant, without any of the other drawbacks.

Well, first of all, he said that he envisioned a x10 multiplier but then he also said that he considered the x50 multiplier to be the right one. Secondly, that wouldn't make sense. Goku was using kaio-ken x10 throughout the entire battle with Freeza and got effortlessly trounced when Freeza went 50%. Then he went kaio-ken x20, which let him keep up, but he couldn't sustain it. Then he goes Super Saiyan and beats up Freeza. Then Freeza goes from 50% to 100% and actually puts up a fight before being beaten.

So, if Super Saiyan really was a x10 multiplier, it would create a contradiction. Goku's power would halve, Freeza's would double, and Freeza would lose.

Anyway, @TheMightyOzaru, I have some more comments about your list, having read it in depth.

-Reccoome vs Vegeta was domination. The gap between them seems unusually small. Also, you have Reccoome moderately weaker than Jeice when Krillin said that they're near identical in power.
-Your levels for the humans and Piccolo pre-Nail fusion... why is Tien stronger than Piccolo? He was weaker going in (by your list Piccolo was almost twice as strong), was never suggested to have gained more strength, and Piccolo was able to defeat him, Yamcha, and Chazou at the same time in sparring.
-Still have Salza weaker than Doore, huh? I know it's the official level and everything, but how does it possibly make sense when Salza one hit KO'd Gohan and fought evenly with Piccolo?
-Why are Goku and Cooler so close in power in Movie 5? Your level for Cooler himself seems fine, but Goku himself should be around 300 million to just completely ignore Cooler's punch like that. He wasn't able to do that with Freeza, and the gap between him and Freeza was much bigger than the gap you have between him and Cooler.
-How can you have Future Gohan stronger than Yardrat Goku? Gohan said that his father was way stronger than him before he died. Trunks, upon witnessing Goku's power, says that Goku is even stronger than the legends made him out to be. And the only thing Trunks knew about him going in was that he was stronger than Gohan.
-Again, why is Trunks so close to the other two Super Saiyans? He was weaker than Yardrat Goku and got a quarter of the time to train.
-Bojack's henchmen... why are Zangya and Bujin so much stronger than Cell Juniors? Why is Kogu so close in power to SS Trunks when he got one-shotted?
-Pui Pui at 420,000,000? Jesus! I suppose there's no evidence to refute that, but wow.
-The Kaioshin all seem waaaaaaaaay too weak. South Kaioshin shouldn't have been anything to Buu and therefore should've done nothing to boost his power.

[Vice]

Nice list but it pains me to see Piccolo that low after the RoSaT and for the love of god guys, get over it. Not everyone will use the "official" (which most of them don't make sense) power levels.

Thanks. I went that small to fit in line with Babidi's statment of not finding his power worth keeping around compared to the base Saiyans. Think of it like having his full potential tapped and any further strength increase to be incremental.

[Vice]

Well, first of all, he said that he envisioned a x10 multiplier but then he also said that he considered the x50 multiplier to be the right one. Secondly, that wouldn't make sense. Goku was using kaio-ken x10 throughout the entire battle with Freeza and got effortlessly trounced when Freeza went 50%. Then he went kaio-ken x20, which let him keep up, but he couldn't sustain it. Then he goes Super Saiyan and beats up Freeza. Then Freeza goes from 50% to 100% and actually puts up a fight before being beaten.

So, if Super Saiyan really was a x10 multiplier, it would create a contradiction. Goku's power would halve, Freeza's would double, and Freeza would lose.

Didnt he say something along the lines of the 50x boost being the most well known but he had closer to 10x in mind while writing the story?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Well, I went with a 10x multiplier because that's what Toriyama said he had in mind while writing the story, which explains the Buu Arc perfectly, so far be it for me to argue with him. People don't like it because of the Kaio-Ken which, yes it's a 20x increase but it's only momentary and you have to use it multiple times to get anywhere while it harms the user's body. Super Saiyan comes with a x10 boost, which is constant, without any of the other drawbacks.

Well, first of all, he said that he envisioned a x10 multiplier but then he also said that he considered the x50 multiplier to be the right one. Secondly, that wouldn't make sense. Goku was using kaio-ken x10 throughout the entire battle with Freeza and got effortlessly trounced when Freeza went 50%. Then he went kaio-ken x20, which let him keep up, but he couldn't sustain it. Then he goes Super Saiyan and beats up Freeza. Then Freeza goes from 50% to 100% and actually puts up a fight before being beaten.

So, if Super Saiyan really was a x10 multiplier, it would create a contradiction. Goku's power would halve, Freeza's would double, and Freeza would lose.

Anyway, @TheMightyOzaru, I have some more comments about your list, having read it in depth.

-Reccoome vs Vegeta was domination. The gap between them seems unusually small. Also, you have Reccoome moderately weaker than Jeice when Krillin said that they're near identical in power.
-Your levels for the humans and Piccolo pre-Nail fusion... why is Tenshinhan stronger than Piccolo? He was weaker going in (by your list Piccolo was almost twice as strong), was never suggested to have gained more strength, and Piccolo was able to defeat him, Yamcha, and Chazou at the same time in sparring.
-Still have Salza weaker than Doore, huh? I know it's the official level and everything, but how does it possibly make sense when Salza one hit KO'd Gohan and fought evenly with Piccolo?
-Why are Goku and Cooler so close in power in Movie 5? Your level for Cooler himself seems fine, but Goku himself should be around 300 million to just completely ignore Cooler's punch like that. He wasn't able to do that with Freeza, and the gap between him and Freeza was much bigger than the gap you have between him and Cooler.
-How can you have Future Gohan stronger than Yardrat Goku? Gohan said that his father was way stronger than him before he died. Trunks, upon witnessing Goku's power, says that Goku is even stronger than the legends made him out to be. And the only thing Trunks knew about him going in was that he was stronger than Gohan.
-Again, why is Trunks so close to the other two Super Saiyans? He was weaker than Yardrat Goku and got a quarter of the time to train.
-Bojack's henchmen... why are Zangya and Bujin so much stronger than Cell Juniors? Why is Kogu so close in power to SS Trunks when he got one-shotted?
-Pui Pui at 420,000,000? Jesus! I suppose there's no evidence to refute that, but wow.
-The Kaioshin all seem waaaaaaaaay too weak. South Kaioshin shouldn't have been anything to Buu and therefore should've done nothing to boost his power.

-Vegeta beat the ever loving crap outta Recoome, I don't think they are too far apart. Jeice is close to Recoome.
-Filler
-Piccolo is playing with Salza, besides do you really think armored squad members even come close to rivaling Freeza's first form? That just seems off to me =/.
-It's a movie, Goku also barely managed Cooler's Supernova so I don't think they are too far apart.
-I fixed that.
-Goku spent more time training Gohan and Piccolo than he did on himself, he didn't grow as much as he could have. Vegeta was decently weaker than both of them from the get go and he spends a lot of time building muscle which isn't the most productive way to train. Yeah it's not a horrible way to train but he needs to use multiple methods to gain a large increase.
-They actually managed to put up a fight where as the Cell Juniors would have been slaughtered by the likes of FPSSJ Goku. Naturally they are stronger, Gokua didn't see a SSJ Punch coming so his guard was down a bit.
-You said I should change it so I did.
-The Kaioshin multiply or divide Buu's power by the first 2 digits in their power levels.

[ZombieVito]

Nice list but it pains me to see Piccolo that low after the RoSaT and for the love of god guys, get over it. Not everyone will use the "official" (which most of them don't make sense) power levels.

Thanks. I went that small to fit in line with Babidi's statment of not finding his power worth keeping around compared to the base Saiyans. Think of it like having his full potential tapped and any further strength increase to be incremental.

Very well but that scene with Babidi doesn't make sense, he can't sense Ki, neither does Dabura. For base Saiyans to be > Piccolo they had to sense there full power correct? if they did why did they sent Pui Pui to fight someone that's >= Yakon? doesn't make sense.

[Vice]

Very well but that scene with Babidi doesn't make sense, he can't sense Ki, neither does Dabura. For base Saiyans to be > Piccolo they had to sense there full power correct? if they did why did they sent Pui Pui to fight someone that's >= Yakon? doesn't make sense.

Well, none of it really makes sense. I mean Shin witnessed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power first-hand and STILL tried to get all three Saiyans to attack Pui-Pui of all people all at once.

[ZombieVito]

That why I go for what was implied in the Cell arc, Piccolo being a beast and >> USSJ Vegeta.

[Bussani]

Didnt he say something along the lines of the 50x boost being the most well known but he had closer to 10x in mind while writing the story?

He said that he drew it with the sense of Goku being ten times what he had been up to that point. That's maybe not quite the same as saying, "I thought his battle power had multiplied by ten". He just drew it that way, because picturing how to draw someone fifty times stronger was hard.

[RandomGuy96]

-Vegeta beat the ever loving crap outta Recoome, I don't think they are too far apart. Jeice is close to Recoome.
-Filler
-Piccolo is playing with Salza, besides do you really think armored squad members even come close to rivaling Freeza's first form? That just seems off to me =/.
-It's a movie, Goku also barely managed Cooler's Supernova so I don't think they are too far apart.
-I fixed that.
-Goku spent more time training Gohan and Piccolo than he did on himself, he didn't grow as much as he could have. Vegeta was decently weaker than both of them from the get go and he spends a lot of time building muscle which isn't the most productive way to train. Yeah it's not a horrible way to train but he needs to use multiple methods to gain a large increase.
-They actually managed to put up a fight where as the Cell Juniors would have been slaughtered by the likes of FPSSJ Goku. Naturally they are stronger, Gokua didn't see a SSJ Punch coming so his guard was down a bit.
-You said I should change it so I did.
-The Kaioshin multiply or divide Buu's power by the first 2 digits in their power levels.

-They obviously are, since Recoome trounced Vegeta...
-Playing with him? Not only would that be out of character, but it wouldn't fit the circumstances. He's distracting the squadron so Gohan can get to Goku. He also uses tricks to split the Armored Squadron up so he could kill them one by one. If he could instantly kill them all in one shot each, why wouldn't he? Since he fought Piccolo evenly, and this is in the android training, I fully believe Salza is stronger than any form of Freeza except his final form. He works for Cooler, and his first reaction to finding the guy that killed Freeza is "Destroying Frieza was a feat a few could pull off. You may be a prestigious kill for us". So, at the very least, he's stronger than 1st form Freeza and given his performance against Piccolo, he's very likely stronger than 2nd form Freeza and 3rd form Freeza as well. I think that, given this is most likely during the android training, he's stronger than Initial Final Form Freeza. You must also remember that he's no ordinary henchman; he leads the most elite unit in the empire and he's one of the only people who knows what Freeza's final form looks like.
-The Supernova was likely a amplified attack, like the Kamehameha, or Final Flash, or Special Beam Cannon, et cetera. Goku didn't even get budged by Cooler's punch, while he did get budged several times by Freeza when the gap was supposedly bigger. Goku should be a lot stronger than 216,000,000... 250,000,000 would be the minimum here.
-I doubt that. You yourself have Goku gaining a lot of power from the training, yet you have Trunks gaining just as much power for no real reason. Also, Trunks shouldn't be so close to Yardrat Goku; he pretty heavily implied that Yardrat Goku was a lot stronger than him, saying that he's even stronger than the legends made him out to be, and that his power gave Trunks hope. Why would he say that if Goku was only as strong as him?
-Also, Movie 5 Goku should be a lot stronger than Yadrat Goku. He confirms in the sequel that he went to Yardrat, and at the beginning of Movie 5 Roshi says that he got a lot stronger since he returned to Earth. Then he got a zenkai in that movie which apparently made him so powerful that Salza went from saying "I have no idea how this guy could've beaten Freeza" to "Wha..? How is he this powerful!?". So, by those statements, Movie 5 Goku (end) > Movie 5 Goku (beginning) > Yardrat Goku > Namek Goku. That doesn't match with Goku at the beginning being weaker than Yadrat Goku.
-Put up a fight against who? Gohan? Because they only manage that by ganging up on him. The only one of Bojack's henchmen who has the right to be called stronger than a Cell Junior is Bido. I'm pretty sure Zangya's only feat was that she was shown fighting evenly with Trunks.
-I know, but still.
-That's... random. Don't you think Kaioshin would've mentioned if ALL of the Kais affected Buu uniquely, not just the Grand Supreme Kai?

Well, none of it really makes sense. I mean Shin witnessed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's power first-hand and STILL tried to get all three Saiyans to attack Pui-Pui of all people all at once.

The thing is, the Supreme Kai has no idea how powerful Pui Pui is. He just assumes that he's strong because he assumes that Babidi only gathers the strongest fighters in the universe. He didn't say anything when SS2 Gohan went to fight Dabura, and references SS2 Gohan's power later, so he didn't just forget.

On the base saiyans being stronger than Piccolo: nothing suggests that at all. Dabura says that he killed the three weakest fighters there, but Dabura can't sense ki and even if he could, everyone there was suppressed.

[Bussani]

Don't you think Kaioshin would've mentioned if ALL of the Kais affected Buu uniquely, not just the Grand Supreme Kai?

What if I believe that all absorptions, period, affect him uniquely? Then it would go without saying.

But yeah, that first-two-digits-of-the-battle powers thing is pretty random. I'll bet there's a story behind it.

[Saiga]

Y'know, if it's absolutely necessary that S. Kaioshin affected Boo is a purely additive way, I don't see why D. Kaioshin would be any different, just negative. Instead of adding his power you'd be subtracting it.

Which would make D. Kaioshin stronger than S. Kaioshin (Fat Boo being weaker than Pure Boo), but S. Kaioshin is the strongest Kaioshin. If D. Kaioshin's battle power isn't used in figuring out the difference, why must S. Kaioshin's be?

[RandomGuy96]

That's the thing though. The Grand Supreme Kai is the only one who was noted to affect Buu uniquely.

Plus even if you just made it additive, except negative, I still believe that the South Supreme Kai would be stronger than the Grand Supreme Kai, simply because I believe the difference between Fat Buu and Kid Buu is smaller than the difference between Kid Buu and Buff Buu. For example, by my power levels that would be:

SSK (250,000,000,000) + Kid Buu (300,000,000,000) = Buff Buu (550,000,000,000).

Kid Buu (300,000,000,000) - GSK (120,000,000,000) = Fat Buu (180,000,000,000).