What's your personal canon (again)?

[rereboy]

No he wasn't. At least, that one panel in the manga didn't explicitly show him in space.

Seems pretty "spacey" to me.

[SSj_Rambo]

No he wasn't. At least, that one panel in the manga didn't explicitly show him in space.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9v3h ... o1_400.jpg

Seems pretty "spacey" to me.

Master Turbo did a great scientific examination of that scene and all the other scenes of the series near the vacuum of space.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22104

And I have to agree, it doesn't explicitly show that he is in space, nor is there reason to believe he could be.

[rereboy]

No he wasn't. At least, that one panel in the manga didn't explicitly show him in space.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9v3h ... o1_400.jpg

Seems pretty "spacey" to me.

Master Turbo did a great scientific examination of that scene and all the other scenes of the series near the vacuum of space.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22104

And I have to agree, it doesn't explicitly show that he is in space, nor is there reason to believe he could be.

Since we have no idea how far he is from the planet and how wide are the different atmospheric layers of planet Vegeta, there is also no reason to believe he is in the planet Vegeta's equivalent of the Earth stratosphere.

In any case, you are basically arguing that he might not be in outer space, where no traces of atmosphere are left. However, the boundary between outer space and atmosphere is not set in stone:

There is no clear boundary between Earth's atmosphere and space, as the density of the atmosphere gradually decreases as the altitude increases. There are several standard boundary designations, namely:

The Fédération Aéronautique Internationale has established the Kármán line at an altitude of 100 km (62 mi) as a working definition for the boundary between aeronautics and astronautics. This is used because at an altitude of roughly 100 km (62 mi), as Theodore von Kármán calculated, a vehicle would have to travel faster than orbital velocity in order to derive sufficient aerodynamic lift from the atmosphere to support itself.[51]
The United States designates people who travel above an altitude of 50 miles (80 km) as astronauts.[52]
NASA's mission control uses 76 mi (122 km) as their re-entry altitude (termed the Entry Interface), which roughly marks the boundary where atmospheric drag becomes noticeable (depending on the ballistic coefficient of the vehicle), thus leading shuttles to switch from steering with thrusters to maneuvering with air surfaces.[53]

In 2009, scientists at the University of Calgary reported detailed measurements with an instrument called the Supra-Thermal Ion Imager (an instrument that measures the direction and speed of ions), which allowed them to establish a boundary at 118 km (73 mi) above Earth. The boundary represents the midpoint of a gradual transition over tens of kilometers from the relatively gentle winds of the Earth's atmosphere to the more violent flows of charged particles in space, which can reach speeds well over 268 m/s (600 mph)

in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space#Boundary

In that manga panel, Bardock seems to be further away from the planet than all these suggested limits and the limit of the stratosphere (50 Kms). However, like I stated, these limits are for Earth and not Vegeta.

In any case, I think that the manga panel illustrates explicitly what can be considered space. There is absolutely no reason to believe that there should be enough oxygen over there for Bardock to breathe (or oxygen at all) and there's basically no other way to draw him in space while still keeping planet Vegeta on the background. There is also no need for him to be breathing at all, he might just be basically holding his breath, so the argument that he must be breathing (in universe) because he is there is not a very strong one.

[Gonstead]

I think the anime is canon and the manga isn't.

........what.

As for my personal canon...

The Manga
Non-contradictory filler
Bardock Special
Episode of Bardock
Trunks Special
DBZ Movie 5
DBZ Movie 8
DBZ Movie 9
DBZ Movie 13
Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!
DBZ Movie 14: Battle of Gods
Dragon Ball GT (Come at me bro!)

[Sani]

Dragon Ball - Kanzenban
The situation in the Nekomajin Z 5
Maybe: Battle of Gods

But of course I like everything else in the Dragon World.

[Hellspawn28]

I don't see how anyone can view GT canon to the manga? There is way too many plot holes in GT that can have it fit in the manga given that the Super 17 saga makes it impossible to happen in the manga.

[Dorexx]

I don't see how anyone can view GT canon to the manga? There is way too many plot holes in GT that can have it fit in the manga given that the Super 17 saga makes it impossible to happen in the manga.

I don't see how you can say such nonsense. There's no such thing as impossible in a fictional story, especially one like Dragon Ball. What do you even mean by "not canon"? That it's impossible for it to exist in the main timeline, or as an alternate timeline, or both? Whether you like it or not, DBGT is set after 5 years of DB/Z, with plotholes or without, and whatever plotholes you're talking about don't make it impossible for that to be true. Do they raise questions? They may, but they're not unanswerable questions. I can easily say that Enma Daio got bored one day and decided that people in Hell can keep their bodies, and it's a valid possibility, and it's just one.

It's literally impossible for anything to be "non-canon", not the other way around.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't see how anyone can view GT canon to the manga? There is way too many plot holes in GT that can have it fit in the manga given that the Super 17 saga makes it impossible to happen in the manga.

The only thing in GT that contradicts the manga is the fact that the villains have their bodies in Hell, instead of getting reincarnated, and the fact that when they were killed for a second time, the died again instead of getting erased from existence.

About the reincarnation: We don't know when the reincarnation takes place. You could say that Oob is proof that the reincarnation takes place immediately, but I could say that Oob is an exception because Emna Daio did a favor to Goku. As for why they have bodies, perhaps because they were really evil guys, they keep their bodies so that they can get tortured in Hell.

About the second death: Plot hole, but not important to the plot.

[mister yummy]

I figure the criteria for keeping your body is being a "great person" good or evil. Therefore, someone like Freeza, who did 'great', but terrible, things in life might get to keep his body in hell.

[Hellspawn28]

That it's impossible for it to exist in the main timeline, or as an alternate timeline

The manga has it's own continuity. Stuff in GT can't really fit into the manga continuity. GT could be view as canon to the anime, but there are something in GT that makes it stand out on it's own. In GT, we find out from Bebi the Saiya-jin were not originally from Planet Plant even though King Kai in the filler flash back episode of DBZ said that they both live on the same planet together. Also Cell and Freeza are immortal in Hell when Goku said that Vegeta would be erase forever if he died again against Buu.

I can easily say that Enma Daio got bored one day and decided that people in Hell can keep their bodies, and it's a valid possibility, and it's just one.

That's just stupid. I think saying "Enma Daio got bored one day and decided that people in Hell can keep their bodies" is a stupid reason on why people in Hell can keep their bodies in Hell. It's like saying that Batman was able to return journey to Gotham so quick after being stuck on the other side of the world in TDKR because he is Batman . Also in GT we got Bebi as a Mutant Tsufurujin which is a race that is never shown in the manga. They were never mention in the manga which means that they most likely don't exist. The Shadow Dragon Saga also can't happen if there is Super 17 saga since the hole between Hell and Earth help break the negative energy inside the Dragon Balls.

[dbzfan7]

My personal canon is the manga, Jump special (because BOG mentions tarble), and Battle of Gods. I also count the Father of Goku special, and Trunks manga. Everything else I ignore.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

My personal canon is the manga, Jump special (because BOG mentions tarble), and Battle of Gods. I also count the Father of Goku special, and Trunks manga. Everything else I ignore.

This is basically what I consider canon too.

[SSj_Rambo]

Nothing from the Daizenshuu? Canon seems to be the most intricate part of most people's enjoyment of the show. I wonder how conversations like this go in other countries, particularly Japan.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Guidebooks! I'm too lazy to list stuff.

[Dorexx]

That it's impossible for it to exist in the main timeline, or as an alternate timeline

The manga has it's own continuity. Stuff in GT can't really fit into the manga continuity. GT could be view as canon to the anime, but there are something in GT that makes it stand out on it's own. In GT, we find out from Bebi the Saiya-jin were not originally from Planet Plant even though King Kai in the filler flash back episode of DBZ said that they both live on the same planet together. Also Cell and Freeza are immortal in Hell when Goku said that Vegeta would be erase forever if he died again against Buu.

I can easily say that Enma Daio got bored one day and decided that people in Hell can keep their bodies, and it's a valid possibility, and it's just one.

That's just stupid. I think saying "Enma Daio got bored one day and decided that people in Hell can keep their bodies" is a stupid reason on why people in Hell can keep their bodies in Hell. It's like saying that Batman was able to return journey to Gotham so quick after being stuck on the other side of the world in TDKR because he is Batman . Also in GT we got Bebi as a Mutant Tsufurujin which is a race that is never shown in the manga. They were never mention in the manga which means that they most likely don't exist. The Shadow Dragon Saga also can't happen if there is Super 17 saga since the hole between Hell and Earth help break the negative energy inside the Dragon Balls.

Gh... Oh my... Do you have any sort of imagination at all?

The thing I said about Enma Daio isn't the only explanation, but it's a possible one; we can think of dozens, even hundreds of more reasons. The point is that it's not impossible to explain it.

Yes, Kaio said Saiyans and the Tsufuru lived together and Bebi said Saiyans came to the planet in a ship; Where exactly is the problem here...? They don't contradict each other. After the Saiyans came to the planet, they lived together on the same planet. Even if they did contradict each other... Maybe one of them was misinformed? Maybe both? Maybe Bebi lied to deceive everyone? (insert a million other reasons here)

As for the Tsufuru not being mentioned, I give up... If you seriously think that's something that makes the two stories impossible to be from the same universe, then I don't know what to say. It's like saying that Goku can't have blue clothes at the end of DBZ because we never saw him change.

[dbzfan7]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Guidebooks! I'm too lazy to list stuff.

Guide books only help establish manga info. I consider them part of the manga set up.

[Tyro]

The thing I said about Enma Daio isn't the only explanation, but it's a possible one; we can think of dozens, even hundreds of more reasons. The point is that it's not impossible to explain it.

This is how you play tennis without the net. The fact that you can run yourself around through minor loopholes does not make for a good argument in your favor. Example: Goku was just barely able to dodge a planet as a baby when his Saiyan ship was on the way to Earth. This is a perfect example that is not falsifiable and therefore weak by definition. Could it be true? Absolutely, there's nothing that I know of that says otherwise and if there is I can give you another example on the spot. I cannot disprove the existence of the Easter Bunny but I don't give equal footing to the idea that it's real. Likewise I can't prove that all the knocks on the head in movie 1 caused Kuririn to forget that he met Gohan but it's completely unfalsifiable so how can you possibly give something like this merit?

My two cents for the topic:

The reason people have problems with someone else's accepted personal canon is because it gets in the way of discussing character battle strengths and that's definitely the reason we're still having this discussion today. If you weren't on the internet between 2004-2009 during the heyday when other famous forums would argue about power levels then you probably don't understand when I say that it literally makes no sense to me how someone can count filler, GT, the movies, video games, or fan fiction as part of their personal canon universe. If you didn't grow up as one of those rambunctious teenagers spending hours of time rereading volumes of material and analyzing to the finest detail what characters said then you probably don't take notice or give any amount of shits when someone says "I count both the TV special and manga chapter of History of Trunks to be in my personal canon." But to me and at least one friend from back in the old days (Duo), that's just ridiculous because you have an obvious glaring hole in your universe/logic.

You have two products trying to fill the same slot with different and conflicting details, so...how do you get around that? A shrug of the shoulders because you like both of them? Because you like them a lot? Because they represent all the atmosphere and excitement and action you loved about the show and it's what got you into liking the series in the first place? That's awesome and you should continue to love and support that product with all your fandom, but I'm sorry to say that it just doesn't hold water in my view and unless we can agree on some balanced, unbiased starting point I'm afraid that this would be where any sensible discussion would have to end. Trunks was clearly a SSj before Gohan died and if we can't agree on that all I can do is appeal to the values I have for sensible debate and say to look at the argument. The exact same argument can be made if someone says that they choose to have both the anime's English dub (Toonami 1996-1997, I'm not sure of the name. Ocean?) and original Japanese in their personal canon. Obviously there are going to be some major differences in script between the two and thus a problem arises. These contradictions make one product mutually exclusive (on at least that issue) from the other and you'd therefore have to make clear what it is you believe because it wouldn't be obvious. So what is the most logical starting point? You already know: the manga. It may have its own contradictions and be vague in places but at least these flaws are known. As the source material it is basically what a book is to its film adaptation, and it's universally accepted as the concrete basis to paint your opinion on.

So what am I trying to get at? Do I hate the anime? Hell no! I own the entire series and the movies just like you. I just love to debate about the nitty-gritty of the series and see what conjecture can be made about a hairy situation as well as see what explanations we can come up with that fit best given everything we know about it. That's just the type of fan I am. What's cool is that not everyone has to be a fan like me and I'm not trying to advocate that everyone should try because my fandom might not be the best way to enjoy the series to everyone. Hell, it even sounds terrible to me right now but it's what I like to do. My personal opinion on this whole issue mirrors my stance on religion: I don't care what you believe even if it's the most ridiculous notion in the Milky Way, I won't lose sleep over it. But if you're going to assert something as fact and it stems from faulty logic then I'm going to call bullshit. If by personal canon you guys are talking about things you like and enjoy as part of the continuum of Dragonball, sure go crazy! Count the Muten Roshi tissue box as canon too if you want. But if you mean here is what I believe to be the definite list of events that happen in-universe that you can always fall back on (ex: saying movie 3 is canon and that it must fit...somewhere) and claim the events therein as fact, this is where we have a fundamental disagreement on what represents a rational stance on the issue.

Even if we don't have the same canon and we'll never see eye-to-eye, whatever. I think it's great when all information is brought to a discussion including but not limited to official magazine/JUMP articles, anime-specific Daizenshuu (this is where we got a note from Toriyama that Raditz was stronger than a Saibaiman), etc. But the rock we must build our opinions on is the manga; it's the most reliable foundation.

[Duo]

I don't like to use the word canon, but...

I do not understand in the least bit why there exists the compulsion to rationalize or justify odd or contradictory things that happen in filler, movies, etc, to fit in with the original history of the story. I can just as easily watch a filler segment, see something that makes NO SENSE in relationship to the original Manga, and just as easily dismiss it. It's not a big deal if it's there or not (other than annoyance) because there's no reason to jump through those mental hoops. Not a single one of the movies happened in the official history of Dragon Ball. You don't need to think about it. Watch. Be entertained. Move on.

Also, every single thing that Tyro said just above this.

[Zephyr]

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that two alternate versions of the same thing are compatible. We're just sharing what material we feel in our own minds happened on top of the manga. We're not trying to argue which one is best, which one is the most official, or anything like that.

Sure, we don't have to think about these things or rationalize them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. We don't have to post on a message board. We don't have to construct power level lists. We don't have to try and hash out which Buu is the strongest. The fact that those are all unnecessary in no way means we should abstain from them. I don't see much of a point in saying "you guys are doing something in this thread that I view as frivolous!"

[Tyro]

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that two alternate versions of the same thing are compatible.

I think I see evidence for the contrary in this thread.