How SSJ4 Should Work

[TheMightyOzaru]

I was playing Budokai 3 yesterday and I went through Vegeta's and Goku's story again just for kicks. When I replayed their SSJ4 portions of the story, Goku's transformation and Bulma's statement about Goku's transformation made me think something. Since Toriyama stated that tails became inferior it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to say that they needed the inferior to achieve the superior, I.E. a tail to access SSJ4. However I was thinking what if they were just exposed to bruitz waves while in their SSJ states causing a metamorphosis into SSJ4? This way SSJ and Oozaru would be successfully combined without the need of the inferior tail. Now correct me if I'm wrong but I don't even remember a SSJ fighting at night under a full moon. If this was to be implemented it wouldn't contradict anything, barring GT of course but I'm disregarding that. So what do you guys think? Should SSJ4 work like this so Toriyama's statement isn't contradicted?

[Kaboom]

Saiyans' tails are just a means to achieve Oozaru, and them being cited as "inferior" just means that Oozaru was decidedly inferior to Super Saiyan, which is true enough. But there's nothing wrong with it being reintroduced as just part of something new. It doesn't matter much whether Super Saiyan or Oozaru is better when they're being brought together to create Super Saiyan 4, which is better than either one separately.

[Blade]

I read it as a Saiyan's tail representing his primal instincts - his underlying potential to destroy. The Oozaru is a relentless machine of animalistic brutality, there's little inhibition, control or conscience.

Goku represents the antithesis of this. He is pure hearted and isn't motivated by the primordial urge to destroy. The Super Saiyan form is reached by Goku in response to the emotional need to overcome something that the limits of ones physical constitution cannot, and that's why the Oozaru form and the tail of a Saiyan do not appear again in Toriyama's work beyond this point. Vegeta losing his tail is symbolic as the beginnings of his transition from animalistic brute into a (somewhat) caring individual.

If Toriyama stated that the tail makes a Saiyan inferior then I believe he is referring entirely to the notion that emotions and conscience are higher, or greater, facets of existence to that of pure instinct and first order need-based animalistic predicates. GT actually does well to bring in the animalistic and edgy element to Super Saiyan 4 that comes with the return of the tail.

[Rocketman]

I really just want a Super Saiyan that actually is ultraviolent and uncontrolled rage instead of all talk.

Literally. When somebody is truly enraged, the parts of the brain that control language shut down.

Movie 4's Super Saiyan was rage. SS1 Goku lecturing Freeza, SS2 Gohan taunting Cell, LSS Broly giggling, SS3/4 Goku yakkity-yakking, all not rage.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's a cartoon Rocketman... Saiyan brains may also function differently.

[Amuro Ray]

SSJ4 is fanfiction garbage - just like GT.

[Kamiccolo9]

I really just want a Super Saiyan that actually is ultraviolent and uncontrolled rage instead of all talk.

Literally. When somebody is truly enraged, the parts of the brain that control language shut down.

Movie 4's Super Saiyan was rage. SS1 Goku lecturing Freeza, SS2 Gohan taunting Cell, LSS Broly giggling, SS3/4 Goku yakkity-yakking, all not rage.

He's got a point. For a transformation that requires an extreme outburst of rage, the anger doesn't seem to last very long.

SSJ4 is fanfiction garbage - just like GT.

No one's questioning whether or not it's canon, only discussing how it should work.

[Kaboom]

Super Saiyan is said to be awoken by rage, but it's not necessarily sustained by it.

SSJ4 is fanfiction garbage - just like GT.

Then why bother partaking in a thread about it?

[Kamiccolo9]

Super Saiyan is said to be awoken by rage, but it's not necessarily sustained by it.

True, but what I was saying was that they got over being extremely enraged really fast. Goku was furious when he transformed against Freeza, telling Gohan to get away before he "exploded with rage," but soon after he was composed and taunting Freeza. I agree with Rocketman, and wished that they had utilized the movie 4 version of Super Saiyan, at least for a while.

[SSJ4_Zankuto]

I think Super Saiya-jin 4 worked out just fine for Son Goku and Vegeta to inflate their Saiya-jin pride to greater heights, to fight stronger opponents just like the fight between Goku & Nova Shenron.

[Zephyr]

SSJ4 is fanfiction garbage - just like GT.

Fanfiction is created by fans, not by people who have the rights to officially publish material and make money off of it.

On topic: I prefer SSj4 as it is. Just wish they could have come up with a better and more fitting name for the form.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

^ I kind of agree, although, I didn't like how Gokuu transformed into SSJ4 afterward that made the Oozaru irrelevant like it was just another form; I wish it was more rare, making SSJ1-3 relevant, and there was risk of preventing the transformation by destroying a false moon/ Blutz Waves source for the Transformation (SSJ4 shouldn't exist without a moon.)

[the_abberration]

I agree with Rocketman's opinion, and feel that falls in line with anime Vegeta's account of the LSSJ somewhat.

SSJ4 (in addition to the original SSJ form) should have them behaving as they would in Oozaru form....save for Vegeta (who could always control the form). That would explain why he would think only he would be able to achieve it.

In retrospect, maybe it would have work better if in DBZ, Freeza had a crazed (and unpredictable) Goku to contend with, prior to Goku regaining control of himself. On if in GT, for golden Oozaru Goku to transform into SSJ4 and still act the same. Pan would then still have to try to reach him so he could gain control of the form.

[Duo]

The "Golden Oozaru" version of Super Saiya-Jin 4 makes sense (even though logical consistency ends up only making it a marginal improvement over Ssj3), but I'm still stuck on how we ever got adult Goku with red fur out of all that.

I've wondered if Toriyama was trying to say Super Saiya-Jin and turning into a great ape are mutually exclusive feats, but that would really put a nail in the GT coffin, wouldn't it?