Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Ohhhh, you mean Tsuru-sennin. Thought you were talking about the guy Kami "possessed" during the 23rd TB. Anyway, I have Tao above Roshi, because he was able to easily overpower Goku, who was essentially on par with Roshi.

Fair enough I guess, but I always thought Roshi was weaker back then.

Do you remember the exact wording and context?

Herms, to the rescue!

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Context: As Piccolo is effortlessly defeating Android 20
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Isn't it generally assumed based on: their auras, their knowledge of inferiority of the Grades in comparison to fpSSj, and their performance, that they were using fpSSj as opposed to Grade II?

Even if they were, there's no way they should be Perfect Cell level. Goku was far stronger than either of them, and he was losing to a heavily surpressed Perfect Cell.

I personally don't see any reason to make that big of a distinction for Broly between the two movies. And while there may not be anything that puts him above the Perfect Cell Bojack tier, there's also nothing that puts him below the SSj2 tier either. Simply insufficient evidence either way. Thus, I arbitrarily went with my own preferred placement.

Wasn't Movie 10 Broly stated/implied to somehow receive a zenkai?

Fair enough. I'd personally withhold my own judgment on the Rild/Buu/Goku/Piccolo/Gohan GT comparisons until I see it myself again (or some GT Strength Checker were to pop up ). But again, this is why I'm cherry-picking GT. Only using stuff that can fit into the conventional logic of the manga.

If you try to only use stuff that can fit into the logic of the manga, you may as well not bother with GT at all. Once again, according to GT, Piccolo is stronger than Super Buu. By a lot.

The Dabura/Cell/Cell Jr/Gohan placement is all based around Vegeta being fpSSj during the Cell Games. The relative strength of the SSj's between the Cell Games and the Buu arc, I feel, is plenty vague enough for this to work. We assume Gohan got a tad weaker, and Goku/Vegeta got a tad stronger. So, Buu arc Gohan and Cell Games Vegeta could reasonably be on par with each other. Cell, Cell Jr., and Dabura are all in this same general tier as well. This explains why Vegeta was holding his own against the Cell Jr, and Gohan was holding his own against Dabura.

- Dabura is compared to Cell, and them being in the same general tier shows this.
- Dabura and Gohan literally seem to be neck-in-neck, them being in the same sub-tier shows this.
- Vegeta is only a sub-tier below Cell Jr., meaning that he can fight evenly with it for a while, but eventually, he'll be overcome.

I think what you described for the Cell Juniors was the same situation as Dabura. Dabura was winning, even if Gohan was holding his own, and he later referred to Gohan as trash and said he'd have no trouble beating him. I still think that SS1 Gohan in the Buu Saga should be stronger than Cell Games Vegeta, because he was far superior to Cell Games Vegeta as a kid, and he can't have gotten that much weaker.

Oh, and another thing I didn't notice: Goku-Ginyu had a stated power level of 23,000. Higher than Dodoria and exactly as strong as non-transformed Zarbon.

Also, Tien should've gotten over twenty times as strong on Kaio's planet. He was there longer than Goku. Post-Kaio he's Burter level at the very least. In general I think you're rating the humans too low, and this coming from the guy who thinks that only Krillin might've broken the million mark. Yamcha not even doubling his power with all that time on Kaio's planet, while Goku multiplied his by twenty? Yamcha should at least be Cui-tier by that time.

[Zephyr]

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Context: As Piccolo is effortlessly defeating Android 20
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Ah okay. Well, I can see it being possible to place Piccolo in SSj range, from this statement. However, it can also be interpreted as meaning nothing more than that Piccolo has an incredibly high level of power in comparison to everyone else. I'm interpreting it as the latter, because I don't feel that he can catch up with two massive power boosts on Goku's part with training alone. At least, not in a few years.

Even if they were, there's no way they should be Perfect Cell level. Goku was far stronger than either of them, and he was losing to a heavily surpressed Perfect Cell.

That's why I have Cell a couple sub-tiers above them. As for Goku being stronger than Vegeta/Trunks, I could make sub-sub-tiers, but that'd be way more complicated. I could just incorporate each fpSSj individually, but I feel that would occupy too much space when the alternative of having "fpSSj/post-RoSaT SSj" be its own specific little realm seems better to me.

Wasn't Movie 10 Broly stated/implied to somehow receive a zenkai?

I believe so, but again, I don't feel the need to see it as significantly tier jumping when he didn't really perform any feats between the two movies to set the difference in power in stone.

If you try to only use stuff that can fit into the logic of the manga, you may as well not bother with GT at all.

I have to disagree. A new SSj form reaching even higher realms of power? A new villain created from the negative energy of the Dragon Balls reaching higher realms of power? A fusion of two characters utilizing this new SSj form reaching into ungodly insane high levels of power? All of this seems pretty compatible with the main story's general rules of power increases. People overtaking multiple, insane power boosts with only a few years of training? That's just blatantly bad on so many levels.

I think what you described for the Cell Juniors was the same situation as Dabura. Dabura was winning, even if Gohan was holding his own, and he later referred to Gohan as trash and said he'd have no trouble beating him.

I seem to be remembering it differently, but if Dabura was indeed going to win eventually, I'd put him in the same sub tier as Cell Jr.

Also, Tenshinhan should've gotten over twenty times as strong on Kaio's planet. He was there longer than Goku. Post-Kaio he's Burter level at the very least. In general I think you're rating the humans too low, and this coming from the guy who thinks that only Krillin might've broken the million mark. Yamcha not even doubling his power with all that time on Kaio's planet, while Goku multiplied his by twenty? Yamcha should at least be Cui-tier by that time.

The humans' progress seems so miniscule because they don't receive any power boosts (save for Krillin, and just look at him on Namek). The series tends to imply a heavy distinction between the fruits of training and the fruits of power boosts. It took Tenshinhan eight years of training to catch up with the boost Goku received from the Super God Water. Goku jumped to the Ginyu Force levels by receiving five boosts/zenkais. As for Yamcha, again, the guy seems hell bent on not ever making significant progress in his training. He was beaten by Tenshinhan during the 22nd TB. It took him eight years to get to the level Tenshinhan was at during the 22nd TB.

[Saiga]

@Zephyr Yeah, I always took Vegeta's comment to mean the Gohan was suppressed, and I think he wasn't given a true battle power like Piccolo and Kuririn because they already listed the Masenko one.

Also, Gohan had a BP around 1,500 at the very start of Namek, though he could have gotten a Zenkai after the Saiyan battle.

So I guess it could just go either way.

[RandomGuy96]

So, who here takes those V-Jump numbers for Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta when they're about to fight Freeza seriously? I'm kind of thinking about dispensing with them. No way it makes sense for Vegeta at 250,000 to do what he did to Freeza at 530,000, or for him to say that Krillin has massively powered up and would be useful against Freeza if Krillin is only 75,000.

The humans' progress seems so miniscule because they don't receive any power boosts (save for Krillin, and just look at him on Namek). The series tends to imply a heavy distinction between the fruits of training and the fruits of power boosts. It took Tenshinhan eight years of training to catch up with the boost Goku received from the Super God Water. Goku jumped to the Ginyu Force levels by receiving five boosts/zenkais. As for Yamcha, again, the guy seems hell bent on not ever making significant progress in his training. He was beaten by Tenshinhan during the 22nd TB. It took him eight years to get to the level Tenshinhan was at during the 22nd TB.

They did get higher boosts than Goku from training with Kami. And I think making them each 20 times stronger than their Saiyan Saga versions would be fair, they were there longer than Goku anyway.

[Saiga]

I take them seriously. Vegeta being at 250,000 makes sense to me, as he was winded while Freeza wasn't. Also, I believe that Vegeta's Zenkai from Dende should be bigger than the one he got from the Senzu Bean since it's that Zenkai that he finds most remarkable. If Vegeta's much higher than 250,000 than that can't work at all.

Also, if you add up their battle powers you get 525,000 which is probably why Vegeta thought they might be able to manage something against Freeza combined.

[Zephyr]

It's true that they got higher boost from training with Kami than Goku did. That could be explained by them training together as opposed to solo (like Goku did), though. The same could very well be said of their training with Kaio. But to me, "much better training" is still just training. I'm sure it resulted in incredibly insane results for human martial artists, but I just don't feel that it can ultimately hold a candle to the instant power boosts like zenkais, fusions, transformations, and potential-unlocking. This is where we probably have to agree to disagree on the topic of the post-Saiyan arc humans.

For what it's worth, I take the Ginyu-at-Kaio's filler as a very plausible scenario if the humans knew the Kaio-ken.

@Saiga I agree that they may have withheld giving Gohan a "true" BP due to the fact that they already put his Masenko BP there. But taking what I brought up early about Gohan still being a novice at ki control, and his confirmed 'arrival-on-Namek' BP as being not much higher than it was on Earth (with an implied Zenkai there between the two), I'm just sticking with him not being suppressed.

Re V-Jump Freeza Battle BPs: I do take them seriously. Had trouble at first taking the ones for Gohan and Krillin seriously (why the fuck does Krillin's power multiply by so much for no reason at all?), but then I figured it could be explained by the Grand Elder's power up taking a while to fully manifest itself.

[Saiga]

Gohan was definitely suppressed on Namek before attacking Freeza's goons, so I don't believe he was novice of it in the Saiyan fight or anything. He could fly without difficulty, I think his difficulty in following the Yamcha/Saibaiman battle was just general inexperience and expecting to be able to just follow with his eyes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Piccolo went from 400 when Raditz arrived to 3,500 when Nappa arrived, according to the Daizenshuu, and he didn't even get to train with God. For comparison, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Krillin could only duplicate that feat by training with God.

This just proves that Piccolo has better training methods than the Earthlings'.

He went from 3,500 when he died to strong enough to baffle Nail, who was at 42,000.

The fact that Nail compliments him doesn't mean that Piccolo is stronger than him. The Warrior-type Namekians were around 3000 (except for Nail, who presumably got his dormant power drawn out by Saichouro). Piccolo should be stronger since he was running the Serpentine Road, but he didn't get to train much in Kaio's, since he only trained for 5 days (I think?). So, if Piccolo went above 3500, then Nail could be complimenting him for having a big power for a Namekian.

He went from a little over a million in the Freeza Saga to being implied to be over a hundred million in the Android Arc, given that he's pretty much lumped in with Trunks tier-wise and Krillin compares him to a Super Saiyan.

What Zephyr said. I have Piccolo below Freeza's level, which would make him about 100 times stronger, not hundreds of times as you said. And it works perfectly. (I actually believe that this huge increase was because he had a Super Saiyan as a sparring partner, and by merging with Nail, who was the strongest Namekian on Planet Namek, Piccolo's dormant power skyrocketed.)

[Olympian]

As for Yamcha, again, the guy seems hell bent on not ever making significant progress in his training. He was beaten by Tenshinhan during the 22nd TB. It took him eight years to get to the level Tenshinhan was at during the 22nd TB.

I don`t think 8 years would be accurate. If that was the case then he was the one making the biggest jump for the Sayians.

[Zephyr]

3 years between the 22nd and 23rd. 5 years between the 23rd and Raditz' arrival. Those two timeskips add up to 8 years, and it's only after those 8 years that he finally caught up (177) to where Tenshinhan had been during the 22nd (180).

[RandomGuy96]

This just proves that Piccolo has better training methods than the Earthlings'.

No, not really. He trained out in the wilderness, the Earthlings trained with God.

The fact that Nail compliments him doesn't mean that Piccolo is stronger than him. The Warrior-type Namekians were around 3000 (except for Nail, who presumably got his dormant power drawn out by Saichouro). Piccolo should be stronger since he was running the Serpentine Road, but he didn't get to train much in Kaio's, since he only trained for 5 days (I think?). So, if Piccolo went above 3500, then Nail could be complimenting him for having a big power for a Namekian.

Unlikely. I just think that the writer's intention was to show us that Piccolo is even stronger than this guy but still no match for Freeza.

What Zephyr said. I have Piccolo below Freeza's level, which would make him about 100 times stronger, not hundreds of times as you said. And it works perfectly. (I actually believe that this huge increase was because he had a Super Saiyan as a sparring partner, and by merging with Nail, who was the strongest Namekian on Planet Namek, Piccolo's dormant power skyrocketed.)

Oh, so he only got a hundred times stronger? Oh that's much better. You're kind of missing the point; no one gained that insane of an increase in 3 years. Piccolo has been shown again and again to gain power faster than the others. If he had roughly the same amount of time to train in between Namek and Cooler's arrival as he did between Raditz's and Nappa's arrivals, there's no way he and by extension Salza shouldn't be a lot stronger than third form Freeza, who's generally accepted as being in the low two million range.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No, not really. He trained out in the wilderness, the Earthlings trained with God.

Exactly. Piccolo could get ~8 times stronger alone, while the Earthlings needed to be trained by someone else to get ~8 times stronger.

[RandomGuy96]

I... really don't see what you're getting at. What is the difference between him having better training methods and gaining power faster, for the purposes of this thread? I said that I placed Salza way above third form Freeza because he held his own against that Piccolo. I got that by assuming that Piccolo progressed at the same rate that he did during the Saiyan Arc, to avoid making Salza mega-haxxed, as he would be if Piccolo already had android arc progression. Gohan states that Piccolo has pretty much done nothing but train since Namek, so he would've been around 9 million in Movie 5, probably higher, and I find it hard to believe that Salza isn't at least half as strong as him.

[Victorious]

What? I have all the numbers fron the manga....

What numbers do you think are high?

Your numbers are superb, look pretty similar to mine.

[Victorious]

Their placement is based mostly off of Piccolo (Androids)'s placement. I can't see any reason why 19 and 20 would be significantly different in power. 20 was shown, after absorbing a blast from Vegeta and plenty of energy from Piccolo, to be more than susceptible to getting a beating laid on him by Piccolo. As for Piccolo, while I did move him up a couple tiers, in general I just can't understand how a few years of training can pass up an "instant power boost". I mean, it took Tenshinhan 8 years to just about catch up with one of Goku's earlier ones (Super God Water). Thus, Piccolo can't be too much higher than he was on Namek, and 20, even after powering up, still got totally wrecked by him.

I'm doubtful of the idea of Piccolo in the Android arc not being that much stronger than he was on Namek. This is 4 years post training, 3 of them with a Super Saiyan.

He's implied to be able to manhandle any power prior to the Android arc, that includes Super Saiyan Trunks and Yadrat Goku who make Mecha Freeza look like a joke.


Nothing wrong with Piccolo far surpassing a super villain, Tenshinhan with 3 years training considerably surpassed Piccolo Daimao at the 23rd Budokai, who was a god compared to anyone else other than Divine Water Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

Officially, no, he didn't.

[Zephyr]

He's implied to be able to manhandle any power prior to the Android arc, that includes Super Saiyan Trunks and Yadrat Goku who make Mecha Freeza look like a joke.


Nothing wrong with Piccolo far surpassing a super villain, Tenshinhan with 3 years training considerably surpassed Piccolo Daimao at the 23rd Budokai, who was a god compared to anyone else other than Divine Water Goku.

Where is the implication that Androids arc Piccolo can "manhandle" SSj Trunks?

Also, Tenshinhan's BP didn't surpass Daimao's until the 1 year of training for Nappa and Vegeta. Daimao had a BP of 260, and Tenshinhan's was still only 250 when Bulma used Radiz' scouter to look at everyone's level prior to the year of training.

[Kamiccolo9]

He's implied to be able to manhandle any power prior to the Android arc, that includes Super Saiyan Trunks and Yadrat Goku who make Mecha Freeza look like a joke.


Nothing wrong with Piccolo far surpassing a super villain, Tenshinhan with 3 years training considerably surpassed Piccolo Daimao at the 23rd Budokai, who was a god compared to anyone else other than Divine Water Goku.

Where is the implication that Androids arc Piccolo can "manhandle" SSj Trunks?

Also, Tenshinhan's BP didn't surpass Daimao's until the 1 year of training for Nappa and Vegeta. Daimao had a BP of 260, and Tenshinhan's was still only 250 when Bulma used Radiz' scouter to look at everyone's level prior to the year of training.

Well, he's confident that he can be useful against enemies that, from what he's been told, are stronger than Super Saiyan Trunks. This would indicate that he's at least in the same league as the Super Saiyans.

[Victorious]

He's implied to be able to manhandle any power prior to the Android arc, that includes Super Saiyan Trunks and Yadrat Goku who make Mecha Freeza look like a joke.


Nothing wrong with Piccolo far surpassing a super villain, Tenshinhan with 3 years training considerably surpassed Piccolo Daimao at the 23rd Budokai, who was a god compared to anyone else other than Divine Water Goku.

Where is the implication that Androids arc Piccolo can "manhandle" SSj Trunks?

Also, Tenshinhan's BP didn't surpass Daimao's until the 1 year of training for Nappa and Vegeta. Daimao had a BP of 260, and Tenshinhan's was still only 250 when Bulma used Radiz' scouter to look at everyone's level prior to the year of training.

Tenshinahan is stated to have surpassed post Divine Water Goku at the 23rd Budokai. Who beat Piccolo Daimao.

He fought evenly with weighted Goku at the 23rd who was = to post divine water Goku in speed, and significantly stronger than post Divine water Goku.

Tenshinhan 23rd speed >> weighted Goku speed = post Divine Water Goku speed > Piccolo Daimao

Tenshinhan 23rd strength ~ weighted Goku strength >> post Divine Water Goku strength > Piccolo Daimao

The 260 BP is non canon and irrelevant.

[Victorious]

Officially, no, he didn't.

The manga is the most official source, sorry bub.