Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Until stated that is a theory and not true. There is no mysterious power, Goku was stronger because he simply had better training methods then Vegeta and had a natural talent. The whole Mysterious power bit was Vegeta's excuse to rationalize being inferior to Goku as he couldn't understand. Vegeta usually just tortures his body, Goku uses efficient training and gives his body rest and what it needs to truly develop. Its why he didn't bother using the ROSAT twice. He said that torturing your body isn't training.
I agree but, I still think about Kakarotto and Vegeta immeasurable latent power ( specially Goku ).
My problem with that line is that Half Breeds have always been stated to have more potential than full saiyans. It doesn't make sense for that logic to be reversed. The half breed problem was that they weren't interested in battle and they usually don't reach their full potential. Goku to have more potential then Gohan makes no sense when every statement before says otherwise.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It seems that Goku has this "power of friendship" passively (since he is pure-hearted), while Vegeta has this momentarily when he gets angry about his beloved ones. Now if you disagree with that, then of course it won't make any sense. It's theorized in the manga by Vegeta (who believed that this could be the reason Goku is always ahead of him), and then Vegeta is proved correct in BoG.
That's because that theory is an excuse like "the sun is in my eyes" or "I didn't sleep much before hand". Vegeta thought that could be it because he was rationalizing Goku being superior to him. He then realizes the truth that Goku is just simply better then he is. Having this random power up bullshit takes that whole Vegeta realization speech and shits on it. If I go by that, then I have to go by Goku, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Krillin, Oolong, etc can do the same thing if pressured and defy logic. Because why not as the "power of friendship" should not be for one man.
Your last part is a theory which is based on one of Vegeta's excuses of coping with being inferior. It ain't proven wrong, but it's not proven right either.
I hope the choezenshu will light things up on the subject when the encyclopedia version comes out.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:Your last part is a theory which is based on one of Vegeta's excuses of coping with being inferior. It ain't proven wrong, but it's not proven right either.
The movie, and Watanabe's comment on this proves it, at least for me. I'm not saying that everyone who fights for others is automatically stronger than the selfish ones, I just believe that those who fight for others get an extra increase (probably related to the yuuki and/or shouki parts of ki).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:Your last part is a theory which is based on one of Vegeta's excuses of coping with being inferior. It ain't proven wrong, but it's not proven right either.
The movie, and Watanabe's comment on this proves it, at least for me. I'm not saying that everyone who fights for others is automatically stronger than the selfish ones, I just believe that those who fight for others get an extra increase (probably related to the yuuki and/or shouki parts of ki).
I ain't gonna say your wrong as you're not making anything up. But, I just don't believe people get random boosts of power just cause. I believe it all comes down to training, how effectively you train your body, your skill, and natural talent. I believe its raw talent that kept Goku ahead. I think if we rationalize this scene as "power of friendship" Then theoretically anyone put in a similar situation will get a power up like Vegeta. I think they really should have just given Vegeta SSJ3, then it would make more sense this scene.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I think if we rationalize this scene as "power of friendship" Then theoretically anyone put in a similar situation will get a power up like Vegeta.
Probably yes. But not everyone will get as strong as Vegeta.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
dbzfan7 wrote:I think if we rationalize this scene as "power of friendship" Then theoretically anyone put in a similar situation will get a power up like Vegeta.
Probably yes. But not everyone will get as strong as Vegeta.
Of course as not everyone would be Saiyans. I would think half Saiyans would gain more from rage, but Goten and Trunks wouldn't be up to par like Vegeta.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dbzfan7 wrote:I think if we rationalize this scene as "power of friendship" Then theoretically anyone put in a similar situation will get a power up like Vegeta.
Probably yes. But not everyone will get as strong as Vegeta.
Of course as not everyone would be Saiyans. I would think half Saiyans would gain more from rage, but Goten and Trunks wouldn't be up to par like Vegeta.
Yeah, it should be working about like that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Yeah, it should be working about like that.
I just don't understand why they went this route when SSJ3 Vegeta would make more sense plot wise and logic wise.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Thanks. So yeah, I get the same impression as Saiyan Prince Vegeta when looking at the whole context. Weird how it felt like there was something missing when you just look at the above sentence alone!
dbzfan7 wrote:the scene makes as much sense as Muten Roshi suddenly being interested in men, or Krillin secretly being a Saiyan.
I think it makes a lot more sense than those things. Ki is a spiritual force made up of multiple mental aspects, so it seems only natural for it to fluctuate; in addition to that, there really have been people who have summoned "superhuman" strength when they really need it. Moreover, it's just a very shonen thing to happen.
The only thing that makes this seem unusual, if you ask me, is that Vegeta's never done it before. He couldn't manage anything against Cell when he killed Trunks, you know? But despite that, yeah, I'd still say it makes a lot more sense than, say, Muten Roshi suddenly being interested in men.
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Bussani wrote:The only thing that makes this seem unusual, if you ask me, is that Vegeta's never done it before. He couldn't manage anything against Cell when he killed Trunks, you know? But despite that, yeah, I'd still say it makes a lot more sense than, say, Muten Roshi suddenly being interested in men.
Well I was exaggerating by comparing the scene to other ludicrous scenarios. But you bring up a good point. He fights for Trunks for the same reason he fought for Bulma, yet when Trunks dies which is much worse then a slap, and Vegeta's strength didn't magically increase. I also theorize Birus let him do it as he knocks Vegeta out with a poke afterwards. It also why I hate this scene as it is random and Vegeta has never showed any capability of this before.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
My problem with that line is that Half Breeds have always been stated to have more potential than full saiyans. It doesn't make sense for that logic to be reversed. The half breed problem was that they weren't interested in battle and they usually don't reach their full potential. Goku to have more potential then Gohan makes no sense when every statement before says otherwise.
I always have doubts with that sentence: ¨Half Breeds have always been stated to have more potential than full saiyans¨. Vegeta says in the Vol 17 Ch 206 ¨IT SEEMS mixing Saiyan and Earthling blood begets a powerful hybrid.
Yes, we always seen Half Breeds from early age become very strong but, they have a limited power? Personally I think yes because, Gohan reached his full strength by Kaioshin and that´s why his transformation is called Ultimate Gohan. Just because Gohan's potential was so absurdly high, doesn't necessarily mean all hybrids do and doesn't necessarily mean they don´t have a power limit. Maybe the half breeds can only reach their full maximum potential by unlocking or rage and not by training.
Why a low class Saiyan like Kakarotto have so much power? Why a low class Saiyan like Kakarotto always surpass the hi class Saiyan like Vegeta who born powerful? Yes both training hard but Kakarotto is more intelligent in his methods, etc, I don´t know, apparently there are some full bloded Saiyans with much much hidden power.
General Blue or Nam or Krillin (at the time he was killed) vs Cymbal.
Cymbal can fly, shoot mouth blasts, and fire lightning. Plus he actually HIT Yajirobe a few times, who was on the same tier as Goku. So I go with him. I know he's said to be several times weaker than Tambourine, but all the "several times weaker/stronger" statements in Dragon Ball can't really fit together...
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I don't think the gap between Boo and Gohan is so large that SS3 Goku wouldn't close it. I think Boo would have the advantage, and thanks to his regeneration he'd wear Gohan down and defeat him.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
RandomGuy96 wrote:General Blue or Nam or Krillin (at the time he was killed) vs Cymbal.
Cymbal can fly, shoot mouth blasts, and fire lightning. Plus he actually HIT Yajirobe a few times, who was on the same tier as Goku. So I go with him. I know he's said to be several times weaker than Tambourine, but all the "several times weaker/stronger" statements in Dragon Ball can't really fit together...
I think you kinda answered your own versus. Blue and Nam have no chance in Hell. Krillin might be able to win with a Kamehameha but it would be a tough fight.
Although, now I think of it, I'd be curious to see Giran vs. General Blue.
Once again though, I'm not sure. Cymbal is supposedly much weaker than Tambourine, Blue and Nam both gave a good fight to an earlier version of Goku, and Krillin has the Kamehameha while Blue has telekinesis...
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Didn't he actually put up a fight against Yajirobe? And what about Nam and Blue?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Didn't he actually put up a fight against Yajirobe? And what about Nam and Blue?
I'm pretty sure Cymbal was immediately taken out by Yajirobe in the manga. Haven't seen the anime version.
Nam no, I don't think he would. His best move was supposed to put Goku out for 10 days or something but Goku got right back up. For Blue, I guess he could win this his telekinesis.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Was it anime only when Tao easily broke Blue's TK hold?
I can't see Cymbal being weaker than Tao(110). Even being weaker than Tambourine, he's still gifted with some of King Piccolo's power and King Piccolo made a fool of 180+ Goku.
Cymbal actually landing hits on Yajirobe was definitely in the manga. http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6084/066bsz.jpg I don't see how that goes with him being much weaker than Tambourine, especially not several times weaker.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
