Is the Yamamoto score worth being missed?

[kei17]

As you know, the so-called Yamaoto incident occurred and now his score for Kai is gone for good from the franchise. The replacement score is Kikuchi's from old DBZ which feels poorly placed (for some people including me at least).

I can somewhat understand why people seem to prefer something new over something old, but my thought is: Is the Yamamoto score really worth being missed even if you leave his plagiarism out of consideration? It definitely was new and fresh, but I honestly didn't like it much from the beginning. It was sort of generic, inconsistent, non-DB feeling, repetitive, and very poorly placed. It's a mix of dub-score-like happy-sounding techno rock and grave orchestra, which don't really go well with each other. Also, his orchestration feels a tad unskilled, which resulted in cheap sounding trumpets and the heavy use of the same pattern. It obviously is no match for the characteristic and consistent Kikuchi score. In addition, Yukio Nagasaki's music placement definitely was the worst placement I've ever heard. If I take no thought for repetitiveness, I think even the replacement score is superior over the original score in many scenes placement-wise.

Also, some people say that they dislike the fact that they're using the old kikuchi score for Kai simply because it destroys one of the "purposes" of Kai, but I don't think it really was a purpose. Their very purpose was reintroducing an old series to the new generation to make more money. Newly rescoring was just one of the commercial steps to modernize the show to make it fit for current kids. Kai definitely was not made for any artistic reasons after all. You have no need to try to justify the original one if you don't like the replacement one.

Yamamoto inflicted monetary damage on Toei, hurt the franchise, and eliminated the possibility of a possible new score that's written by someone more skilled and talented. To me, now the Yamamoto score is nothing but a bad memory. I don't miss it anymore.

How do you feel about this?

[JulieYBM]

I would have preferred the use of Kikuchi's music from the beginning. While there is one or two tracks of Yamamoto's I do like the poor placement and hollow-ness to the music leaves me feeling very uninspired. To make things worse it is now impossible to own ninety-eight episodes of the series unedited.

I suppose one could say, on principle I do miss the Yamamoto score, but when it comes to my opinion I could have done without it.

[Kojiro Sasaki]

When I heard about that Dragon Ball Z will be "refreshed", I was very excited. To be honest, firstly I thought that it will be a re-edited original material (HD transfers + remixed audio tracks). When I learn that there will be new score and voices - I wasn't happy about that, but still I wanted to see the show. The Biggest disappointment came when I saw first episode. For me, it was something absolutely without characteristic Dragon Ball atmosphere. Soul of the show was gone. I wasn't able to feel such "power of the moments", which excited me in original version.

If something is getting super popular and it's still popular 15 years after premiere - it's called "classic", and every single part of it is classic. It shows that original show was done great. The same goes for Dragon Ball and original Kikuchi score. For me, it's like someone would take old Bond movies and throw away original Bond Theme - such action will have nothing to do with "artistic reasons", it will be only profanation.

So for me, Kai is modern plastic soulles product created only for earning money on the popularity of original title. When "retelling story more accurately to the manga" isn't in overall bad idea, technical realisation was the cheapest of all shows that I saw (according to possibilities). It simply killed possibility to see properly restored original series.

About "Yamamoto incident": I was very happy when I learned that Kikuchi score will be used in Kai. Main defect of the original series is that the original score is presented in the worst possible quality - mono optical track on 16 mm film. This kind of music is very demanding in terms of source quality - a large variety of instruments and great dynamic range. Presentation in mono kills the original sounding. Stereophonic sound was designed especially for orchestral music. Hearing all Kikuchi pieces in great quality stereo was most wanted thing for me. I also thought that it will bring some of "old atmosphere" to the show, and I will be able to watch it, but I was wrong. Horrible placements and only stereo pieces from soundtrack CDs reassured me that I must simply forget about such thing as Kai. They should ask Columbia for remixing all pieces, but as I see, even using original stereo masters was to hard for them - used music was probably taken directly from CDs (that's why only released stereo pieces were used - Columbia wanted money for delivering masters). That proves that Toei is cheap as hell, if you look at this all "Kai project". If they would do it the way it should be done, full release of Kikuchi score would be possible.

Overall: I'm absolutely not interested in any new score for the old series. For me, Yamamoto score may not even exist.

(Excuse my bad English - I started writing couple of weeks ago)

[dbboxkaifan]

Well, if Toei Animation had used the whole Dragon Ball Z soundtrack or at least a lot of BGMs I wouldn't have minded, but constantly hearing the same ones on every episode and repeating during one episode several times just kills whatever interest I had watching it.

I can never recommend people to watch Kai with the replacement music because it's awful, and sometimes people think (YouTube -- but I haven't posted a comment there on a Kai video for months) I'm disrespecting the original music but no, it's how they placed the DBZ music in Kai.

I understand why people value so much Dragon Ball Kai Parts 1-4, I do too. It's an awesome cinematic Dragon Ball experience.

[SSj_Rambo]

I was extremely excited when I heard of a new score being developed for Kai, but like many I was also slightly disappointed with the result. It did seem rather generic and far too synthesized for something of Dragon Ball's nature. I do miss the fact that it was having a consistent run in Kai, and that came to a halt. Having followed the series as it was first broadcast in Japan, whenever I watch it now the music seems out of place for something in HD; I guess I just had HD Dragon Ball so closely associated with Yamamoto's score in my mind. So I guess when I watch Kai I miss the score, but I don't really watch Kai, ever.

[Black_Liger]

You really wanna make me hate yamamoto xD.

I like this score, I like his arrangement for orchestra (Victor's dance is great) the score had some great moments, but it's never gonna be back, Let's just deal with it, I just hope this doesn't happen again in the future.

[theoriginalbilis]

I'll be honest. I miss it, but I won't lose any sleep over it. I have the OSTs, after all! I felt that Yamamoto's score fit Kai rather well. Yes, I agree with those who say it was one of his lesser works (Budokai and Super Butoden will always be his high marks for me.) Overall, I feel his music helped Kai to stand out as it's own entity, even though at its core, Kai is a clip show. I didn't really care that many of his pieces were plagiarized, I still enjoyed his many of his arrangements for Kai. But, I can totally see why folks dislike it.

That said... it probably wasn't worth the ordeal to hire Yamamoto to do the score only to risk legal troubles and copyright infringement only to fire him later and create a big musical clusterfuck with this franchise. Toei could've either hired a brand new composer from the get-go to score Kai, or could've just used Kikuchi's soundtrack from the beginning.

The former is happening, but for now, only the Boo arc is getting a new score. And they've showed us how well they're using the Kikuchi score... not very well. I think if they slowed down with the re-scoring and used more of Kikuchi's available library, we could've had music placement just as good or even better than the original DBZ. I consider myself a pretty big Dragon Ball music nut (much like Mike and Co.), so I've acquired as much of Kai with the Yamamoto score as possible (through DVDs, Blu-Rays, and TV recordings)... I feel it's important enough to keep around, at least as a footnote in Dragon Ball's history.

I will say this, as much as I'm a fan of Yamamoto's music, I don't want him anywhere near DBZ again... just to avoid any future delays or screw-ups regarding TV airings/international releases. I now look at it this way: this gives other composers a chance to try their hands at a DBZ score, perhaps bring in some freshness to the music of the franchise. The Battle of Gods' soundtrack shows that there is potential for the future...

[kei17]

When I heard about that Dragon Ball Z will be "refreshed", I was very excited. To be honest, firstly I thought that it will be a re-edited original material (HD transfers + remixed audio tracks). When I learn that there will be new score and voices - I wasn't happy about that, but still I wanted to see the show. The Biggest disappointment came when I saw first episode. For me, it was something absolutely without characteristic Dragon Ball atmosphere. Soul of the show was gone. I wasn't able to feel such "power of the moments", which excited me in original version.

If something is getting super popular and it's still popular 15 years after premiere - it's called "classic", and every single part of it is classic. It shows that original show was done great. The same goes for Dragon Ball and original Kikuchi score. For me, it's like someone would take old Bond movies and throw away original Bond Theme - such action will have nothing to do with "artistic reasons", it will be only profanation.

Here's a really good point. Trying to "improve" something classic (even if it's not perfect) can be rather an insult to the original creators especially when you're inexperienced and unskilled. I would be really upset if they took away the original Bond/Terminator theme from a remastered edition of the old series. Letting someone making a whole new score for a rehashed show was a dumb idea from the beginning, after all. As they say, "don't fix it if it ain't broke". A new score would have been understandable and acceptable if Kai had been a complete remake, but it's not.

Having followed the series as it was first broadcast in Japan, whenever I watch it now the music seems out of place for something in HD; I guess I just had HD Dragon Ball so closely associated with Yamamoto's score in my mind. So I guess when I watch Kai I miss the score, but I don't really watch Kai, ever.

So you miss it because you enjoyed Kai as a new thing instead of a remastered and rehashed version of an old show. That's understandable.

[B]

To make things worse it is now impossible to own ninety-eight episodes of the series unedited.

This is definitely what gets me about the whole thing. The quality is sort of besides the point; that was the music which was applied to Kai and then they replaced it. And even beyond that, it is their show and if anyone has the right to do that, it's Toei, but they scrambled to do it in response to the scandal, so even the Kikuchi score has awkward placement(and limited selection) and nobody wins. It's 90% the fact it's been altered, and 10% the alteration didn't improve the product at all.

[Super 17]

How do you feel about this?

To me Kai doesn't exit. The music is definitely awfully placed.For the Kikuchi music, it's really annoying hearing the same music all the time. They should of put all the music. It seems like only the music that was released on CD was put on the show. I'm not gonna be pissed or sad about it. I'll have the original 291 episodes of Z.

And to really answer your original question, I won't miss it because I barely watched it, but I think the Yamamoto score was okay, but not for DBZ. It should of been for another anime series and maybe he would of still have a job, since not everyone would of been concentrated on it like everyone was for DBZ Kai.

[dbboxkaifan]

It seems like only the music that was released on CD was put on the show.

Sadly they aren't, if they were then Replacement Kai wouldn't have been so damn repetitive all the time.

If anyone's to blame it's Toei Animation for the music and then Nagasaki for the music placements.

[El Diabeetus]

I kind of miss it, but I see what you're talking about when you mention the iffy parts of his. Although the reptiveness in his and the replacement Kikuchi score, is frankly a problem with the audio directors, so Yukio Nagasaki and co. I'm hoping the Buu arc, the new guys score doesn't get fucked over by incompident audio directors. I have the Parts 1-4 with Yamamoto, and Parts 5-9 with Kikuchi. So, I the releases I own are just kind of a reflection of the music incident.

If it weren't for the dub, I probably just stuck with Z. Even if the series is properly shorter in Kai.

[Super 17]

It seems like only the music that was released on CD was put on the show.

Sadly they aren't, if they were then Replacement Kai wouldn't have been so damn repetitive all the time.

If anyone's to blame it's Toei Animation for the music and then Nagasaki for the music placements.

What I meant to say was that no unreleased music was put on the show. And yeah, I know what you mean, the rest of the released music wasn't put on the show, but all the music that is on the show is on CD. How weird. They better of not lost the score masters

[Insertclevername]

Well, while not totally versed into Kai, the one thing that did peak my interest was a different score. I want to view Kai as a separate product to Z but it's hard to do that when so many things are the same (aesthetically speaking). Considering I don't mind filler in the original 2 animes, without the Yamamoto score, I don't really have a reason to watch it.

There was some tracks I really dig like this one, especially around 2:27. By far my favorite track.

Overall, I'm more upset over the fact that we are using a watered down amount of the Kikuchi score (which I love to death) and not something new than the lack of Yamamoto. If we are graced with a new score for the Boo arc however, I'd be satisfied.

[KingofWisdom]

I liked it at the time, but looking back on it, there aren't many tracks I like from the score. The songs I go back and listen to the most are the Ginyu theme and Saiyan Blood. I did get a chuckle out of the scandal, because friends of mine who don't like the Kikuchi score had to put up with it if they wanted to continue watching Kai.

[dbboxkaifan]

I liked it at the time, but looking back on it, there aren't many tracks I like from the score. The songs I go back and listen to the most are the Ginyu theme and Saiyan Blood. I did get a chuckle out of the scandal, because friends of mine who don't like the Kikuchi score had to put up with it if they wanted to continue watching Kai.

The last episode of Kai with Yamamoto's score was Episode 95. 96, 97 & 98 all feature Kikuchi's replacement score but it's actually really good for these last three episodes it's not so terrible as it is for the early episodes with it.

[kei17]

I liked it at the time, but looking back on it, there aren't many tracks I like from the score. The songs I go back and listen to the most are the Ginyu theme and Saiyan Blood. I did get a chuckle out of the scandal, because friends of mine who don't like the Kikuchi score had to put up with it if they wanted to continue watching Kai.

The last episode of Kai with Yamamoto's score was Episode 95. 96, 97 & 98 all feature Kikuchi's replacement score but it's actually really good for these last three episodes it's not so terrible as it is for the early episodes with it.

I think his friend watches the English dub.

[dbboxkaifan]

There was some people who took the time to do it for the English dub, but the audio quality of the music tracks that they used from what I heard (downloaded it) wasn't pleasant to listen to.

They should've got it on FLAC which is lossless audio quality instead of that MP3 crap.

[kei17]

There was some people who took the time to do it for the English dub, but the audio quality of the music tracks that they used from what I heard (downloaded it) wasn't pleasant to listen to.

They should've got it on FLAC which is lossless audio quality instead of that MP3 crap.

Yeah I know that, but why do you always bring up such pointless information? No offense to you, but honestly most of your posts on this forum hardly make sense. KingofWisdom's post obviously suggests that his friends were watching the English dub of Kai on official releases/airings that they wold be forced to live with their dislikable music in order to continue watching it. The original Japanese version or some fanmade shit having the Yamamoto score in the Android/Cell arc has nothing to do with it.

[Cold Skin]

Apart from the Boo arc, music by Kikuchi pretty much always failed to be a good representation of Dragon Ball for me, it was hard to feel anything, no real action, no real sadness, no real epicness, nothing...
To me, if you don't feel you could put the soundtrack on a full-scale movie, then the composer hasn't understood how Dragon Ball is meant to be an epic journey.
It was much better when the Boo arc was there and for movie 13 for some reason. Like Kikuchi had understood the essence of the series and what it inspires.
All of his tracks seem pretty dull, and then suddenly when you get to the Boo arc or movie 13, the music suddenly gets to your heart, makes your eyebrows take their sad shape, makes your muscles twitch as if preparing to fight or makes your lips hint a quirky smile!
But apart from that, for almost all series long and almost every movie, the Kikuchi score just felt kind of there, better than nothing to fill the music void I guess...

Kai's Yamamoto score did make me feel strong about moments that were never really emotional before.
Yes, I was excited for the first time by the three years training thanks to the music (The Victor's Dance).
Yes, I felt a certain charisma and tension to the threat of the androids thanks to their mechanic theme music (Creature of Marvel).
Yes, I felt heartbroken for the first time when watching Goku's heart decease thanks to the music (A Grim Fate) perfectly synchronized, with the violins coming in when Goku falls to the ground.
Yes, I was terrified more than ever by Cell silently appearing and killing that guy in front of Piccolo thanks to the eerie music (Ominous Silence), a music that also made me feel the creeping nightmare that starts to take shape when C-19 has just absorbed a weirdly tired Goku's Kame Hame Ha.
Yes, I felt how the fight between Piccolo and C-17 was magnificent thanks to the music (Heroic Face-Off) that makes you heart pound as you eagerly watch their chaotic fight.

The Yamamoto score brought various emotion when there was pretty much none, and it doesn't fail on people I know: when someone discovers the show for the first time with me, they tend to like his score while thinking the Kikuchi one sounds old and uninspiring (which they say to me when watching the movies, I have to encourage them to still seriously get into what's happening and try to feel involved despite it).
"Old" fans who knew about the Kikuchi score before likely think it's "Dragon Ball-ish" seemingly cause it was just used first. Yet, I must be an exception, since to me it's not, the Yamamoto, Takaki's Ultimate Tenkaichi or Battle of Gods soundtracks are the ones Dragon Ball-ish to me, all having a similar style that just fits the main feeling of the scene!

So yeah, for Kai, Yamamoto seems to appeal to most people that aren't subject to nostalgia - maybe regular people who are not experts in music too, since a few "experts" here prefer the Kikuchi score a lot more -, and it is worth being missed.
It was a huge part of what enhanced the Dragon Ball experience compared to the original Z, and without it, Kai feels like a more minor enhancement, with some scenes being stripped of their amazing emotion.
However, it is quite clearly below the Ultimate Tenkaichi's reanimated score and the Battle of Gods one.
So I won't miss it at all for the Boo arc if the composer for Battle of Gods takes over in the end.

To me, my preference goes as such:
- Battle of Gods: perfectly got what Dragon Ball is meant to be, how it's epic.
- Ultimate Tenkaichi (reanimated scenes, Takaki): perfectly got what Dragon Ball is meant to be, how it's epic.
- Kai (Yamamoto): often got a good sense of what Dragon Ball is meant to be, despite some tracks of volume 1 sounding repetitive.
- Z (Boo arc, Kikuchi): often got a good sense of what Dragon Ball is meant to be, despite still a general lack of rhythm sometimes.
- Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans (Takaki): pretty dull overall, mostly just kinda there, but a few pieces are worth it.
- Z (all other arcs, Kikuchi): pretty dull overall, mostly just kinda there, sounds repetitive.