Character derailment

[Saiga]

Anyone who isn't a Saiyan by the end. Makes everyone feel worthless and pointless to be around. Especially the human characters who are reduced to saying how powerful the other are and that's it.

How is this character derailment?

[Olympian]

As the best-end-of-all? That includes power level arguments as well as character traits.

From what I've seen, yes.

Can you recount especific examples on this forum? I haven`t honestly ever seen a debate about whether Yamucha is the strongest character in Dragonball, let alone among the humans. He`s a contender there, sure, but that`s it. Unless you mean fan fiction where somehow he closes even moreso the gap, but that exists for most charaters anyway.

As far as traits, he`s not the most focused or noble or rigtheous of the cast, but when you compare him with what Vegeta has been most of his life, it`s not even honestly a contest. Is he a better person or has been most of his life? Was he shown to be more heroic?

Oh yes.

[Saiga]

As the best-end-of-all? That includes power level arguments as well as character traits.

From what I've seen, yes.

Can you recount especific examples on this forum? I haven`t honestly ever seen a debate about whether Yamucha is the strongest character in Dragonball, let alone among the humans. He`s a contender there, sure, but that`s it. Unless you mean fan fiction where somehow he closes even moreso the gap, but that exists for most charaters anyway.

As far as traits, he`s not the most focused or noble or rigtheous of the cast, but when you compare him with what Vegeta has been most of his life, it`s not even honestly a contest. Is he a better person or has been most of his life? Was he shown to be more heroic?

Oh yes.

I think I misunderstood what you originally said. I thought what you meant by "best-end-of-all if not for the Sayians" was "they'd be the best if the Saiyans weren't around". Because that's what DBZGTKOSDH was originally getting at. That said, I have seen people claim that Yamcha is the strongest human, or that the humans are stronger than the "base" Saiyans (or Super Saiyans, even), or that they gain power quicker, are more skilled, etc etc. A lot of fans will try to find any advantage they can for the humans no matter how hard they have to twist things. And as you pointed out, there are all the fanfics where the humans are made out to be the strongest, and they certainly receive that treatment more than other characters.

And when it doesn't come to power, then of course there any many fans arguing about how the humans are the greatest characters ever.

[VyeRo]

As for being n upgrade or downgrade from Yamcha, the situations are different. She never had a kid with Yamcha somehow. Maybe she forgot to take the pill when she was with Vegeta that one night or whatever

I would say Yamcha was certainly a better boyfriend in the beginning as she was an actual boyfriend. Vegeta became a decent husband (they did get married by Buu, right?) eventually.

Well until he started blowing up innocent people in front of her. Logically that would damage a relationship.

I think that in the end, Vegeta proved to be the most suitable husband for Bulma and they seem genuinely happy together. So that's why I think it's an upgrade.

And yes, it does make you think...Together with the same guy for more than 10 years and no baby (or marriage), and in three years time there's suddenly a baby with another man. Definitely a birth control defect.
It makes me wonder though, what would Toriyama have done with Bulma and Yamcha if Vegeta hadn't been in the picture? Would they get married? Endless cycle of breakups? Interesting thought.

[Ninja Murasaki]

As for being n upgrade or downgrade from Yamcha, the situations are different. She never had a kid with Yamcha somehow. Maybe she forgot to take the pill when she was with Vegeta that one night or whatever

I would say Yamcha was certainly a better boyfriend in the beginning as she was an actual boyfriend. Vegeta became a decent husband (they did get married by Buu, right?) eventually.

Well until he started blowing up innocent people in front of her. Logically that would damage a relationship.

I think that in the end, Vegeta proved to be the most suitable husband for Bulma and they seem genuinely happy together. So that's why I think it's an upgrade.

And yes, it does make you think...Together with the same guy for more than 10 years and no baby (or marriage), and in three years time there's suddenly a baby with another man. Definitely a birth control defect.

Basically, Yamcha was too much of a normal and easygoing person, Bulma wanted a more ruthless and unpredictable man. She's always loved men like that.

Probably, neither of them were ready for a child yet. Yamcha was waiting for stability between them and Bulma wasn't ready to take on such a big responsibility. Keep in mind, she didn't intend to have a kid with Vegeta.

It makes me wonder though, what would Toriyama have done with Bulma and Yamcha if Vegeta hadn't been in the picture? Would they get married? Endless cycle of breakups? Interesting thought.

They probably would have gotten married and had a kid that would either be in the background or if female act as a love interest for Goku's next kid.

[VyeRo]

Basically, Yamcha was too much of a normal and easygoing person, Bulma wanted a more ruthless and unpredictable man. She's always loved men like that.

They probably would have gotten married and had a kid that would either be in the background or if female act as a love interest for Goku's next kid.

I agree, but I think it wasn't so much about ruthlessness but more about dominance. Bulma could walk all over Yamcha and he let her do it instead of talking back to her, because he was too submissive in their relationship. Bulma wasn't a good match for him because she needed someone who can be just as much of a bitch. And I guess the mystery and danger surrounding Vegeta was also appealing to her more daring side.

And that would have been so boring. I'm glad we have Trunks.

[chaosakita]

How does someone have such a long discussion over whether Yamcha cheated? A guy in a shounen jump series, no less.

[Eddie]

I'm going to be honest. I think the whole Yamcha cheated on Bulma was a horrible misunderstanding from Bulma's part. She was sure he was cheating on her... you know how she is. Maybe he was helping some Maron-type girl and that wasn't at all good in her book. *shrugs*

Hasn't it been implied that Bulma likely cheated as well? As much as Yamcha was gone (either off training, taking a break from the relationship due to a fight, or dead) I doubt Bulma kept it in her pants. Frankly she's always come across as being a bit slutty. In the Namek arc in particular we see a side of Bulma that comes across this way, and this was at a time when she was supposed to be focusing on reviving her boyfriend. She's clearly baffled that Namekians don't have sex (implying she thinks it's the greatest thing ever), she mentions that she may have screwed up by not going after Goku, and she even hits on Vegeta, the guy who's basically responsible for Yamcha's death. Bulma's a lot of things, but saint ain't one of 'em.

[VyeRo]

Hasn't it been implied that Bulma likely cheated as well? As much as Yamcha was gone (either off training, taking a break from the relationship due to a fight, or dead) I doubt Bulma kept it in her pants. Frankly she's always come across as being a bit slutty. In the Namek arc in particular we see a side of Bulma that comes across this way, and this was at a time when she was supposed to be focusing on reviving her boyfriend. She's clearly baffled that Namekians don't have sex (implying she thinks it's the greatest thing ever), she mentions that she may have screwed up by not going after Goku, and she even hits on Vegeta, the guy who's basically responsible for Yamcha's death. Bulma's a lot of things, but saint ain't one of 'em.

No, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere that Bulma was unfaithful. Flirty yes, but not unfaithful. TBH, I don't even think that Yamcha cheated, because he just never struck me as the cheating type, but this is the explanation we're given by Toriyama so we're supposed to roll with it. Toriyama probably didn't think this through and go: oh hey, maybe saying Yamcha cheated is out-of-character, I should change it to something more plausible. But then he did confirm it when asked about it by Yamcha's voice actor....

Bulma being flirty has always struck me as a parody, just like Chichi is a parody of the strict Japanese house wife who pushes her children into studying.

And thinking sex is the greatest thing ever is not wrong, is it?

[Eddie]

I dunno. If you actually add up the amount of time that Bulma and Yamcha are really together it isn't much of a relationship. While we don't know much of their personal story, it generally stated in the manga that they weren't together very much during timeskips. At the Tenkaichi Budokai throughout the early part of the story, for example, I seem to remember Bulma mentioning that Yamcha just took off to train. He left (much to her frustration) sometime before the 21st, he would have been training with Roshi before the 22nd, and he climbed Karin Tower, got scarred up, etc. before the 23rd. In the five year skip before Raditz showed up they were essentially split up at some point. After that, Yamcha trains for a little while, gets blown up, and loses out to a homicidal alien. Early on, Bulma and Yamcha had something of a teenage puppy love style romance. After that, however, it really seemed like they were occasionally together for convenience.

[VyeRo]

I guess before Namek, there was never really a third person that could potentially 'steal' Bulma away from Yamcha. It really does seem as if they were together out of convenience, especially later on. But romance is not Toriyama's strongest point so everything is just speculation.

[Ninja Murasaki]

Hasn't it been implied that Bulma likely cheated as well? As much as Yamcha was gone (either off training, taking a break from the relationship due to a fight, or dead) I doubt Bulma kept it in her pants. Frankly she's always come across as being a bit slutty. In the Namek arc in particular we see a side of Bulma that comes across this way, and this was at a time when she was supposed to be focusing on reviving her boyfriend. She's clearly baffled that Namekians don't have sex (implying she thinks it's the greatest thing ever), she mentions that she may have screwed up by not going after Goku, and she even hits on Vegeta, the guy who's basically responsible for Yamcha's death. Bulma's a lot of things, but saint ain't one of 'em.

No, I've never seen it mentioned anywhere that Bulma was unfaithful. Flirty yes, but not unfaithful. TBH, I don't even think that Yamcha cheated, because he just never struck me as the cheating type, but this is the explanation we're given by Toriyama so we're supposed to roll with it. Toriyama probably didn't think this through and go: oh hey, maybe saying Yamcha cheated is out-of-character, I should change it to something more plausible. But then he did confirm it when asked about it by Yamcha's voice actor....

Bulma being flirty has always struck me as a parody, just like Chichi is a parody of the strict Japanese house wife who pushes her children into studying.

And thinking sex is the greatest thing ever is not wrong, is it?

According to secondhand information, Toriyama joked that Yamcha was a cheater. However, the most recent information directly from Toriyama contradicts this as it says Yamcha still has trouble around women.

[Saiga]

But he also worked in a host club, which means even with his difficulties it's not impossible for him.

[Ninja Murasaki]

But he also worked in a host club, which means even with his difficulties it's not impossible for him.

He didn't do well in that job because of his immense difficulties around women, so cheating is unlikely and out of character.

Again, it really seems like you have a personal grudge against the character.

[Saiga]

Again, it really seems like you have a personal grudge against the character.

As I've said, no I don't. You should really lay off that.

[Ninja Murasaki]

Again, it really seems like you have a personal grudge against the character.

As I've said, no I don't. You should really lay off that.

In return, could you lay off this topic, as well as other topics about the character?

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't see what the big deal is. If Toryama says he cheats, then he cheats. It's his story, he can do what he wants with it.

[Saiga]

In return, could you lay off this topic, as well as other topics about the character?

No, because I should be able to post my thoughts on the topic and Yamcha without being constantly harassed by you with false accusations.

[Ninja Murasaki]

In return, could you lay off this topic, as well as other topics about the character?

No, because I should be able to post my thoughts on the topic and Yamcha without being constantly harassed by you with false accusations.

You just keep repeating the same thing and those "accusations" have a lot of evidence behind it. Again, why continue to post in this topic?

EDIT:

I don't see what the big deal is. If Toryama says he cheats, then he cheats. It's his story, he can do what he wants with it.

The thing is Toriyama contradicted that recently. As well as Saiga constantly yelling about how Yamcha's a terrible person because he's a cheater, as well as defending all of Vegeta and Bulma's actions. All in all, it looks like he has a grudge.

[Saiga]

Likewise, you are repeating the same thing. And there's no "evidence", there's you misinterpreting things and blatantly ignoring what I and others have been saying - I do not hate Yamcha, any times I mock him are merely in jest (and I'm hardly the only person to do that), and I am not saying he's a horrible person. I am merely saying what the story, and Toriyama, says.

And as I've said, what Toriyama said recently doesn't contradict that at all. He can still cheat while being nervous with women.