Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

First of all, let it be known that I love Superman and really don't like Goku all that much. But the Death Battle guys let Goku have his GT haxx, so...

First of all, what people can lift/move =/= combat effectiveness. Seriously, this is the case in the series itself.

Like I said, think about the implications of Cell's Solar Kamehameha. It was enough to destroy the whole solar system. That means it's at least as powerful as a supernova. This is supported in the guide for Dragon Ball Online, where it says:

Goku goes missing: realizing his death is imminent and wanting to settle their rivalry, Goku leaves the Earth with Vegeta for a final battle. Years later, supernova explosions are detected; they are assumed to be from Goku and Vegeta's battle.

Keep in mind that Vegeta never got beyond SS2, where he was just a bit stronger than kid Gohan, who was on the same general level as Cell.

Anyway, the Death Battle guys used a throw away line of dialogue from a movie that said that Superman can survive fifteen supernovas easy. If we take that throw-away line of dialogue to calculate his strength, the same thing should probably be done with Goku, rather than doing what they did- completely speculating by assigning their own unit to a number on an on object in the anime.

In the Buu Saga, Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyan 2s both suprassed SS2 Gohan from the Cell Games. Super Saiyan 3 Goku is four times stronger than SS2 Goku. So he can dish out the equivalent of four supernovas, and I assume his durability is on par with his offensive power. This is the max he ever reached in Z, and he has no real impressive speed feats, so of course Superman would still tool Goku...

...but then we get into GT. We all know the infamous scene where Goku says that Rildo is stronger than Buu and proceeds to fight and win against Rildo in his base form. Since Buu (the true Buu) was on par with Goku as a SS3, that means that Goku got 400 times stronger in GT. So now he can dish out the equivalent of 1600 supernovas. Already way out of Superman's league.

Then the Baby Saga comes and things get beyond ridiculous. I'll quote what I said in the Buugetto thread:

Super Baby Vegeta 2 would probably stomp him. So would Syn Shenron. Actually, Baby Vegeta probably wouldn't even need to be super, considering he's somewhere far over Majin Buu x 400. That's assuming you can even kill Buu though... really I have no idea why that Spirit Bomb worked. The moment Super Buu regenerated from smoke after being blown up and having every single piece of his body disintegrated is the moment everyone should've just given up.

Actually, if Baby Vegeta's super modes work like regular Vegeta's super modes, then Super Saiyan 1 Baby Vegeta = far over Majin Buu x 400 (he beat down Super Saiyan 3 GT Goku, who had previously gotten a big power up, and said BEFORE that that the guy he fought evenly with in base was stronger than Majin Buu), Super Saiyan 2 Baby Vegeta = far over Majin Buu x 800, and Super Saiyan 3 (or whatever that last form before Golden Ape was) Baby Vegeta = far over Majin Buu x 3200. Even a fusion of Vegito and Gogeta from Z would get stomped.

If you want to make this even more of a spite thread, then Golden Great Ape Baby Vegeta would be the last Baby Vegeta x 10. Soooo max power Baby Vegeta = far over Majin Buu x 32,000.

and another post

Baby Vegeta (Golden Ape) should be around Majin Buu x 40,000 at the least, since like I said his first form (which would be Majin Buu x 500 here) was noticeably stronger than SS3 Goku, who's Majin Buu x 400.

So a Super Saiyan 4 is probably 100 times stronger than a Super Saiyan 3, cause SS4 Goku fought evenly with Golden Great Ape Baby. So... he can dish out the equivalent of 160,000 supernovas, and probably take a comparable amount. Superman would still be faster than him, but that wouldn't matter if he couldn't even hurt Goku. And that's before getting into the Kamehameha x10...

[AnimeMaakuo]

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[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is Suppaman (aka Kenta Kuraaku), not Superman (aka Clark Kent). Wait a minute...

[Rocketman]

I like how people are saying "supernova" as though it's a defined measurement. Are these metric supernovae or imperial?


Also that line from DBO is shit and must be discarded. The Earth would've been scorched clean if the explosions were anything close to a supernova.

[Kamiccolo9]

I like how people are saying "supernova" as though it's a defined measurement. Are these metric supernovae or imperial?


Also that line from DBO is shit and must be discarded. The Earth would've been scorched clean if the explosions were anything close to a supernova.

Because, obviously, all supernovae are equal, and are not in any way a flawed system of measurement. I personally measure energy output in atomic bombs.

[Mewzard]

Even if you give Goku all the GT hax, that's still ignoring that "The Modern Superman" they used was still quite a bit weaker than current, New-52 Superman:


*Now that's what I call gravity training, lol*

That being while he was away from the light of the Sun. And if that's not good enough, remember, they didn't use Pre-Crisis Superman either, or Superman Prime, or a myriad of alternate versions which could be tougher. So, if we want to bust out filler or GTku, Supes has a lot of good alternatives to boost himself up as well.

The stronger version of Goku you want to bring in, the stronger version of Superman can be brought in as a counter.

[RandomGuy96]

I like how people are saying "supernova" as though it's a defined measurement. Are these metric supernovae or imperial?


Also that line from DBO is shit and must be discarded. The Earth would've been scorched clean if the explosions were anything close to a supernova.

The Death Battle guys did the same thing when they used the fact that Superman could survive what a bad guy said was "fifteen supernovas" as evidence that his durability is untouchable.

It's obvious that they can control the power of their explosions to focus on a single target. Yet you want to ignore it (along with Cell's claim that he could destroy the solar system, which if IIRC was confirmed in a guide) just to low ball Goku, while taking Coldcast's quote at face value, even though his 15 supernovas didn't destroy the moon. Great.

With the above mentioned supernova feat and Cell's solar system busting in mind, them measuring Goku's durability by assigning their own unit to the number on a bomb with no evidence is bullshit. They say Superman can survive a supernova yet never bother to look up all the information that says that Goku can do the same thing, plus things thousands of times stronger than a supernova. Remember, Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Vegeta both can dish out supernova-level damage, and they're tens of thousands of times weaker than GT Goku.

That being while he was away from the light of the Sun. And if that's not good enough, remember, they didn't use Pre-Crisis Superman either, or Superman Prime, or a myriad of alternate versions which could be tougher. So, if we want to bust out filler or GTku, Supes has a lot of good alternatives to boost himself up as well.

The stronger version of Goku you want to bring in, the stronger version of Superman can be brought in as a counter.

...not seeing what's impressive about that panel. He can lift a lot, that was never in doubt.

And the Death Battle guys used GT Goku and modern Superman. Either they should've specified what Superman they were using (and detail why he would win) or they should've just used Z Goku. Even then, their calculations would be VERY wrong (though Superman would still win if you take Coldcast's quote at face value, like Cell's), with Cell's solar system busting (and if you want to count him, Broly's star busting) and SS2 Vegeta's supernova-level firepower...

[Mewzard]

I like how people are saying "supernova" as though it's a defined measurement. Are these metric supernovae or imperial?


Also that line from DBO is shit and must be discarded. The Earth would've been scorched clean if the explosions were anything close to a supernova.

The Death Battle guys did the same thing when they used the fact that Superman could survive what a bad guy said was "fifteen supernovas" as evidence that his durability is untouchable.

It's obvious that they can control the power of their explosions to focus on a single target. Yet you want to ignore it (along with Cell's claim that he could destroy the solar system, which if IIRC was confirmed in a guide) just to low ball Goku, while taking Coldcast's quote at face value, even though his 15 supernovas didn't destroy the moon. Great.

With the above mentioned supernova feat and Cell's solar system busting in mind, them measuring Goku's durability by assigning their own unit to the number on a bomb with no evidence is bullshit. They say Superman can survive a supernova yet never bother to look up all the information that says that Goku can do the same thing, plus things thousands of times stronger than a supernova. Remember, Super Perfect Cell and SS2 Vegeta both can dish out supernova-level damage, and they're tens of thousands of times weaker than GT Goku.

That being while he was away from the light of the Sun. And if that's not good enough, remember, they didn't use Pre-Crisis Superman either, or Superman Prime, or a myriad of alternate versions which could be tougher. So, if we want to bust out filler or GTku, Supes has a lot of good alternatives to boost himself up as well.

The stronger version of Goku you want to bring in, the stronger version of Superman can be brought in as a counter.

...not seeing what's impressive about that panel. He can lift a lot, that was never in doubt.

And the Death Battle guys used GT Goku and modern Superman. Either they should've specified what Superman they were using (and detail why he would win) or they should've just used Z Goku. Even then, their calculations would be VERY wrong (though Superman would still win if you take Coldcast's quote at face value, like Cell's), with Cell's solar system busting (and if you want to count him, Broly's star busting) and SS2 Vegeta's supernova-level firepower...

The 66 Quintillion tons used in the video was just a fraction of what he's lifting in that panel. And it's not just a brief struggle. Without being in the Sun's light to restore his power, he was holding the weight of the Sun on his body for five days straight. Goku couldn't even manage a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that for a short period of time, yet he can be hurt by physical attacks from comparable foes. What's that kind of strength going to do to his body? In a more realistic fight, if Superman wasn't holding back to avoid killing Goku/hurting others, there wouldn't be much left of Goku after a full strength punch (if anything at all).

[dario03]

The Death Battle guys did the same thing when they used the fact that Superman could survive what a bad guy said was "fifteen supernovas" as evidence that his durability is untouchable.

You keep saying that but they flat out said that Coldgast's statement might be a exaggeration and only listed him as having greater than 1 supernova (>10 octillion MT) level durability which they got from other sources.

And I don't know how benching the weight of the Earth for 5 days while underground isn't impressive... If you are super strong and super fast and super durable you will hit super hard.

[Kamiccolo9]

Superman's durability is insane. If Goku hit him, I'm pretty certain that he would do more damage to himself than he would Superman. For all intents and purposes, Superman has limitless strength and durability. The guy can pick up and carry BLACK HOLES for crying out loud. I'm a way bigger fan of Dragonball then of DC (bigger fan of Marvel than both, though), but there is no way that Goku can compete with that.

[TonyTheTiger]

People need to stop focusing so much on strength and whether "lifting strength" is somehow not equivalent to "fighting strength" or some other nonsense. It's durability that's the big issue here. It's a death battle. And Superman pretty much can't die. Well, technically he can but hitting him with plain ol' concussive force is probably the least efficient way to make it happen. With both characters going all out on each other, Goku is going to break far sooner than Superman.

[Bussani]

While lifting strength and striking strength aren't the same thing, one definitely does influence the other. If anything, I'd expect Superman's striking power to be even greater than his lifting power, much like Goku's is.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

the Death Battle guys used GT Goku

Actually, they used Boo arc Goku with Super Saiyan 4. They said that they didn't take GT Goku's feats into account, because his power was terribly inconsistent.

[The Monkey King]

Goku's striking strength is way above his lifting strength due to 2 other factors:
1. The speed at which he punches- sub relativistic speeds in the manga imo (FTL in GT according to Death Battle)
2. He amps his punches with ki making them harder and more explosive.
Honestly just taking lifting strength and calling it a day just isn't cutting it when it comes to DBZ characters, do you think Spider-Man could do to Recoome what Goku did to him?

For example Cell jrs are more durable that Frieza, Frieza has planet level+ durability. Yet SSJ2 Gohan's ki amped punches splattered them. There's also SSJ3 Goku punching through King Kai's planet etc.

[dbzfan7]

I still laugh at how GT Goku is inconsistent, but Superman having several different writers that vary his power is totally fine and consistent. Lets blame the sun for every moment that is off even though its clear Superman is written differently by different writers which will cause inconsistencies.

@Randomguy Besides the quote in the manga, the early Super Saiyan Grade 5 (SSJ2's name before SSJ2) stated the form had enough power to destroy a solar system. But I see cases for both sides of the spectrum.

[TonyTheTiger]

The problem isn't that GT Goku is inconsistent. The problem is that he's a kid throughout most of it which makes him different from the Goku used in the match. It's like electric Superman. They still made full use of the biggest GT feats though, so I don't see what the issue is.

[dbzfan7]

The problem isn't that GT Goku is inconsistent. The problem is that he's a kid throughout most of it which makes him different from the Goku used in the match. It's like electric Superman. They still made full use of the biggest GT feats though, so I don't see what the issue is.

I wouldn't say so. Their statistics show Boo Saga Goku feats and other info taken from different times such as 16 bomb, snake way, etc. They also ignored Goku being stronger then SSJ3 in base in GT. I ain't saying their final result is wrong as even adding those calculations still wouldn't be enough (though maybe with SSJG you may have something.)

[Hellspawn28]

It makes no sense how GT Goku can punch Super 17 to the other side of the world when Ubb did nothing to him and Ubb is stronger then SSj3 Goku. The bad writing in GT is the reason why GT Goku is so inconsistent.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It makes no sense how GT Goku can punch Super 17 to the other side of the world when Ubb did nothing to him and Ubb is stronger then SSj3 Goku. The bad writing in GT is the reason why GT Goku is so inconsistent.

Oob attacked Super #17 before powering up into Super Oob. He powered-up when the Saiyans powered up into Super Saiyans, but all of them got fucked after Super #17 spammed them with ki blasts.

[songohan619]

Just wondering, could Birus defeat Superman?