Battle Of Gods Implies SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan?

[Vice]

The movie also implies that Vegeta is stronger too.

[Gozar]

According to the Daizenshuu, Super Saiya-jin 3 is the full potential of a Saiya-jin, so really, outside of his God powers, he wouldn't be able to get any stronger.

I'm sorry, but a guide book from 15+ years before BoG was even a thought in anyone's mind is pretty much made irrelevant due to the passage of time and new information.

I'm still a strong believer that although Toriyama originally intended to make Goku weaker than Gotenks, he later changed his mind. Yes, this does cause some contradictions, but it's still unexplained why Gohan's Ki in the Genkidama alone was not enough to defeat Kid Buu. Toriyama has messed up on occasions in the past and I think that he just simply changed his mind on the power rankings.

His entire statement about SSJ Gotenks being superior to him was still written around a time when Toriyama was likely still planning on making Gohan the hero in the end. His statement about Gotenks being stronger was also at the same time when he said that he could not defeat Fat Buu. This was later proven to be false by Goku's own admission, so it stands to reason that when he was speaking about Gotenks, he was also speaking less about his own power to Piccolo. After all, I can't imagine that Piccolo would react well to Goku simply not wanting to save the earth and take a gamble based on the fact that he was dead.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I hate this movie.

[Kamiccolo9]

According to the Daizenshuu, Super Saiya-jin 3 is the full potential of a Saiya-jin, so really, outside of his God powers, he wouldn't be able to get any stronger.

I'm sorry, but a guide book from 15+ years before BoG was even a thought in anyone's mind is pretty much made irrelevant due to the passage of time and new information.

I'm still a strong believer that although Toriyama originally intended to make Goku weaker than Gotenks, he later changed his mind. Yes, this does cause some contradictions, but it's still unexplained why Gohan's Ki in the Genkidama alone was not enough to defeat Kid Buu. Toriyama has messed up on occasions in the past and I think that he just simply changed his mind on the power rankings.

His entire statement about SSJ Gotenks being superior to him was still written around a time when Toriyama was likely still planning on making Gohan the hero in the end. His statement about Gotenks being stronger was also at the same time when he said that he could not defeat Fat Buu. This was later proven to be false by Goku's own admission, so it stands to reason that when he was speaking about Gotenks, he was also speaking less about his own power to Piccolo. After all, I can't imagine that Piccolo would react well to Goku simply not wanting to save the earth and take a gamble based on the fact that he was dead.

Except that Gotenks fought evenly with Super Buu, who Goku flat-out admitted would kill him and Vegeta.
The Genki Dama doesn't utilize ki, it uses genki, which is one of the three parts of ki, that signifies vitality. That's why Gohan's alone wasn't able to kill Buu.

I hate this movie.

Why is that?

[Gozar]

Except that Gotenks fought evenly with Super Buu, who Goku flat-out admitted would kill him and Vegeta.
The Genki Dama doesn't utilize ki, it uses genki, which is one of the three parts of ki, that signifies vitality. That's why Gohan's alone wasn't able to kill Buu.

The question becomes though, did Goku know for sure that him and Vegeta would regain their size once leaving Buu's body. Goku and Vegeta alone were not on Vegetto's level and likely would not sustain their normal power in such a state.

As for the statement about genki, then why does the Genkidama take on such a large form when just Gohan and the other Z-Fighters donated their energy?

[Kamiccolo9]

Except that Gotenks fought evenly with Super Buu, who Goku flat-out admitted would kill him and Vegeta.
The Genki Dama doesn't utilize ki, it uses genki, which is one of the three parts of ki, that signifies vitality. That's why Gohan's alone wasn't able to kill Buu.

The question becomes though, did Goku know for sure that him and Vegeta would regain their size once leaving Buu's body. Goku and Vegeta alone were not on Vegetto's level and likely would not sustain their normal power in such a state.

As for the statement about genki, then why does the Genkidama take on such a large form when just Gohan and the other Z-Fighters donated their energy?

He doesn't say anything about not gaining their size back.
Vegeta- "Ok, let's blow a hole through and get out of here!"
Goku- "Don't! Even though he's back to normal, he's still far too strong for us! If we leave, he'll be sure to win!"
Then he goes on to mention using the fusion dance.

As for the Genki Dama, at that point it wasn't even as big as the one he used against Freeza, and it gets much bigger when the other Earthlings, who are far, far weaker even combined than Gohan on his own, are added.

[Gozar]

He doesn't say anything about not gaining their size back.
Vegeta- "Ok, let's blow a hole through and get out of here!"
Goku- "Don't! Even though he's back to normal, he's still far too strong for us! If we leave, he'll be sure to win!"
Then he goes on to mention using the fusion dance.

As for the Genki Dama, at that point it wasn't even as big as the one he used against Freeza, and it gets much bigger when the other Earthlings, who are far, far weaker even combined than Gohan on his own, are added.

I'm not saying Goku said anything directly about it. I'm logically theorizing based on the prior events with character reduction.

Also, you're missing my point. If the energy donated to the Genkidama does not have a direct correlation with strength, then there's no way that it should have been that large from just a handful of people.

[Draken]

According to the Daizenshuu, Super Saiya-jin 3 is the full potential of a Saiya-jin, so really, outside of his God powers, he wouldn't be able to get any stronger.

I'm sorry, but a guide book from 15+ years before BoG was even a thought in anyone's mind is pretty much made irrelevant due to the passage of time and new information.

I'm still a strong believer that although Toriyama originally intended to make Goku weaker than Gotenks, he later changed his mind. Yes, this does cause some contradictions, but it's still unexplained why Gohan's Ki in the Genkidama alone was not enough to defeat Kid Buu. Toriyama has messed up on occasions in the past and I think that he just simply changed his mind on the power rankings.

His entire statement about SSJ Gotenks being superior to him was still written around a time when Toriyama was likely still planning on making Gohan the hero in the end. His statement about Gotenks being stronger was also at the same time when he said that he could not defeat Fat Buu. This was later proven to be false by Goku's own admission, so it stands to reason that when he was speaking about Gotenks, he was also speaking less about his own power to Piccolo. After all, I can't imagine that Piccolo would react well to Goku simply not wanting to save the earth and take a gamble based on the fact that he was dead.

Old story, old explanation. It's called the "Genki" Dama for a reason, it is comprised entirely of Genki, and not Ki, which is a combination of Genki, Yuuki, and Shouki. Genki would be one's vitality, or life force. There is no explaining this away, it's fact. Also, that's why they didn't bring Gohan to the fight, they nerfed Buu down to Kid Buu so Goku could once again take the limelight of being the hero, while Kaioshin was left "too weak" to instantaneously move Gohan to the Kai planet where he could end Buu.

[Bussani]

The question becomes though, did Goku know for sure that him and Vegeta would regain their size once leaving Buu's body. Goku and Vegeta alone were not on Vegetto's level and likely would not sustain their normal power in such a state.

The first mention of their size being a problem comes after Goku talks about them being no match for Super Buu. It doesn't seem like something the two of them had in mind before that to me.

If the energy donated to the Genkidama does not have a direct correlation with strength, then there's no way that it should have been that large from just a handful of people.

Can we know that for sure? This is the first Genki Dama that takes all of a person's genki, rather than just a tiny portion, so there isn't really anything to compare it to. Besides, it's possible that people like Gohan have more genki than others, even if that genki isn't equal to their full ki.

[Gozar]

Old story, old explanation. It's called the "Genki" Dama for a reason, it is comprised entirely of Genki, and not Ki, which is a combination of Genki, Yuuki, and Shouki. Genki would be one's vitality, or life force. There is no explaining this away, it's fact. Also, that's why they didn't bring Gohan to the fight, they nerfed Buu down to Kid Buu so Goku could once again take the limelight of being the hero, while Kaioshin was left "too weak" to instantaneously move Gohan to the Kai planet where he could end Buu.

I already discussed my feelings why I find this to be untrue, but where is this information coming from?

[Kamiccolo9]

He doesn't say anything about not gaining their size back.
Vegeta- "Ok, let's blow a hole through and get out of here!"
Goku- "Don't! Even though he's back to normal, he's still far too strong for us! If we leave, he'll be sure to win!"
Then he goes on to mention using the fusion dance.

As for the Genki Dama, at that point it wasn't even as big as the one he used against Freeza, and it gets much bigger when the other Earthlings, who are far, far weaker even combined than Gohan on his own, are added.

I'm not saying Goku said anything directly about it. I'm logically theorizing based on the prior events with character reduction.

Also, you're missing my point. If the energy donated to the Genkidama does not have a direct correlation with strength, then there's no way that it should have been that large from just a handful of people.

Prior events such as?

Seeing as they have more ki than everyone else, it would stand to reason that they would have more Genki as well. Just not enough to kill Buu. That didn't happen until they got it from everyone.

[dbzfan7]

If Genki and Ki were basically the same thing, the boys would have became SSJ3 Gotenks before donating genki. I would say there is a difference.

On topic I see the implications that go both ways. But I side with Gohan.

[Draken]

Old story, old explanation. It's called the "Genki" Dama for a reason, it is comprised entirely of Genki, and not Ki, which is a combination of Genki, Yuuki, and Shouki. Genki would be one's vitality, or life force. There is no explaining this away, it's fact. Also, that's why they didn't bring Gohan to the fight, they nerfed Buu down to Kid Buu so Goku could once again take the limelight of being the hero, while Kaioshin was left "too weak" to instantaneously move Gohan to the Kai planet where he could end Buu.

I already discussed my feelings why I find this to be untrue, but where is this information coming from?

Akira Toriyama himself. He's stated in multiple interviews multiple times what Ki is comprised of, and Genki Dama, being Genki Dama, is comprised of Genki. Simple as that.

Also, what dbzfan7 said. At the least they could have went Super Saiyan separately.

[Gozar]

Prior events such as?

Seeing as they have more ki than everyone else, it would stand to reason that they would have more Genki as well. Just not enough to kill Buu. That didn't happen until they got it from everyone.

Well, for example, take the Kaio-ken for example. A strong burst of Ki via the Kaio-ken would do great damage to the users body. Now, if a body is shrunk to the size of a bug, exerting the users normal amount of Ki would be similar to performing a high multiplier Kaio-Ken. You'd have a body that could not withstand the level of Ki you were outputting.

I don't see how vitality energy is something that would rise to immense levels along with normal Ki.

But I'm sorry, I derailed this topic. I know that most people here won't agree with my theories, it was silly to even post anything in favor of Goku pre-BoG. However, as far as BoG goes, I've never been a subscriber to that entire "maximum unlocked potential" thing. I just find it hard to believe that Gohan would not gain any more strength if he trained. With that said, the same would apply to Goku and regardless of which character was stronger during the Buu Era, Goku could still surpass Gohan. To me, I always equated statements about a character's latent potential to more so mean that their power was being brought to the maximum level that the current state of their being is able to have. In other words, they trained their body to a state where they obtain great power, but didn't get themselves to the maximum state that their current body could handle. With further training however, they could increase their potential.

[Draken]

Prior events such as?

Seeing as they have more ki than everyone else, it would stand to reason that they would have more Genki as well. Just not enough to kill Buu. That didn't happen until they got it from everyone.

Well, for example, take the Kaio-ken for example. A strong burst of Ki via the Kaio-ken would do great damage to the users body. Now, if a body is shrunk to the size of a bug, exerting the users normal amount of Ki would be similar to performing a high multiplier Kaio-Ken. You'd have a body that could not withstand the level of Ki you were outputting.

I don't see how vitality energy is something that would rise to immense levels along with normal Ki.

But I'm sorry, I derailed this topic. I know that most people here won't agree with my theories, it was silly to even post anything in favor of Goku pre-BoG. However, as far as BoG goes, I've never been a subscriber to that entire "maximum unlocked potential" thing. I just find it hard to believe that Gohan would not gain any more strength if he trained. With that said, the same would apply to Goku and regardless of which character was stronger during the Buu Era, Goku could still surpass Gohan. To me, I always equated statements about a character's latent potential to more so mean that their power was being brought to the maximum level that the current state of their being is able to have. In other words, they trained their body to a state where they obtain great power, but didn't get themselves to the maximum state that their current body could handle. With further training however, they could increase their potential.

I think that's the consensus a lot of people to have to. Look at all the times a character had their supposed "maximum" potentials brought out. What happened later? They surpassed it. Just like in this case. Just that Gohan probably isn't surpassing it because he's not training and further enhancing his body and skills.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I hate this movie.

, why!?

[Undertaker]

Gohan is weaker - if Gohan were as strong as we were lead to believe, Vegeta would have been worried, especially consider that some believe Gotenks was stronger than Goku as well.

Gohan is as strong as we were lead to believe and Vegeta was worried. Thanks for the debate closer!

Especially if we go by the statements Goku HIMSELF made about SSJ Gotenks pre RoSaT = SSJ3 Goku.

You're wasting your time. I posted practically every quote from the strength checker that dealt with Gotenks' and Gohan's power in comparison to Goku's, and he just ignored it. Might as well write him off as a lost cause.

Your strength checker is bullshit and refutes all your arguements when Goku outright admits that he's gambling on the boys. Just because the boys are on Fatbuu's level doesn't mean they are equal to Goku. The anime expands on this when Goku avoids the comparison of Gotenks and himself.[/quote]

It's you kakashi? Please stop with your bias. You would get laughed over 5 sec. Gohan > Gotenks >>> Goku

[Undertaker]

Gohan is weaker - if Gohan were as strong as we were lead to believe, Vegeta would have been worried, especially consider that some believe Gotenks was stronger than Goku as well.

Gohan is as strong as we were lead to believe and Vegeta was worried. Thanks for the debate closer!

Especially if we go by the statements Goku HIMSELF made about SSJ Gotenks pre RoSaT = SSJ3 Goku.

You're wasting your time. I posted practically every quote from the strength checker that dealt with Gotenks' and Gohan's power in comparison to Goku's, and he just ignored it. Might as well write him off as a lost cause.

His a Goku fanboy troll from YouTube known as kakashiUzamaki. He is also retarded.

[Kid Buu]

The movie also implies that Vegeta is stronger too.

Wasn't that just for a brief ANGER BOOST scene?

[VegettoEX]

Issuing warnings and temp-bans if/when appropriate.

If you have a problem with another user, your appropriate course of action should be to report the post for the moderation/administration team to deal with. Insults to anyone -- whether they are members of this community or some other -- will not be tolerated.

I find it absolutely reprehensible that we can have a Battle of Gods general discussion thread go for over 600 pages with no incident, but all it takes is two pages of comparing character strengths to warrant virtual babysitting. It makes you look ridiculous, and it makes the rest of the community here look ridiculous.