Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Just wondering, could Birus defeat Superman?

I don't think that Goku, Beers, or anyone from Dragon Ball can reach Superman's power. Except for Arale & the rest from Penguin Village.

[The Monkey King]

Just wondering, could Birus defeat Superman?

He would give Superman a really good fight, I could see him beat Superman imo.

[TonyTheTiger]

Personally, I'm of the mindset that nobody can beat Superman just by hitting him real hard. There has to be some other trick to weaken him or bypass his durability. Dragon Ball actually has examples of such tricks but they rarely stay relevant for long because Dragon Ball's modus operandi is to always downplay "weird" powers in favor of harder punches and bigger ki waves. Were he a character in the DC universe, Chiaotzu would be rather formidable.

[Kamiccolo9]

Personally, I'm of the mindset that nobody can beat Superman just by hitting him real hard. There has to be some other trick to weaken him or bypass his durability. Dragon Ball actually has examples of such tricks but they rarely stay relevant for long. In the DC universe, Chiaotzu would be rather formidable.

I'm not so sure. Psychic powers are way more common in DC, and Chiaotzu's are nothing special compared to most of the psychic DC villians.

[TonyTheTiger]

I mean in terms of straight vs. matches and how his powers would be teased out in DC rather than just ignored like they were in Dragon Ball. Chiaotzu would have probably been able to cause quite a bit of chaos for Cell had they let his powers actually develop rather than just slapping him with "too weak" and leaving him behind. Dragon Ball is crazy linear with how it approaches power. If you can't hit hard then you're worthless. And apparently "training" only means increasing physical might. Imagine what Chiaotzu could have been capable of had he been able to develop his own brand of power. But it's just plain ol' concussive force that always wins out. Which kind of screws over the entire Dragon Ball universe when put up against someone like Superman who is actually less vulnerable to that raw strength than he is the "weird" powers that constantly get forgotten about.

[Kamiccolo9]

I mean in terms of straight vs. matches. Chiaotzu would have probably been able to cause quite a bit of chaos for Cell had they let his powers actually develop rather than just slapping him with "too weak" and leaving him behind. Dragon Ball is crazy linear with how it approaches power. If you can't hit hard then you're worthless. Which kind of screws over the entire Dragon Ball universe when put up against someone like Superman who is actually less vulnerable to that raw strength than he is the "weird" powers that constantly get forgotten about.

Ah I see. You do have your exceptions though, such as Babidi. Think of all the havoc he could have unleashed by himself, if Toryama would have written it.

[The Monkey King]

Well according to OBD Bills and Post-Crisis Superman are around the same ballpark when it comes to power:
http://www.obdwiki.com/character-profile-bills/
http://www.obdwiki.com/character-profile-superman/

A fight between them would be epic!

[RandomGuy96]

Can't Bills destroy a galaxy? I don't think Superman can do that. His most powerful attack is supernova-level, something even Cell can do. Once again, all I've seen is underpowered cartoon Superman, so if he's more than a star buster post-Crisis let me know.

You keep saying that but they flat out said that Coldgast's statement might be a exaggeration and only listed him as having greater than 1 supernova (>10 octillion MT) level durability which they got from other sources.

And I don't know how benching the weight of the Earth for 5 days while underground isn't impressive... If you are super strong and super fast and super durable you will hit super hard.

If his limit (or at least close to his limit) is only one supernvoa explosion, then even Z Goku would win this. In fact, since said punch can only be used when he's slower than light, Goku would be able to effortlessly dodge such a blow, even going by Death Battle calculations, and flat-out tank it going by what's stated in the manga and guidebooks. Again: Cell said he could destroy the solar system. The guidebooks confirmed this. Dragon Ball Online (more official than GT, at least) said SS2 Vegeta could casually deal out supernova-level damage. Z Goku is four times stronger than Vegeta or Cell. Logically he should be four times as durable.

I never denied he can lift a lot. But GT Goku can dish out and survive extremely ridiculous firepower, lifting things has never been Z characters' strength. Superman isn't even the most powerful being in the DCU.

Superman's durability is insane. If Goku hit him, I'm pretty certain that he would do more damage to himself than he would Superman. For all intents and purposes, Superman has limitless strength and durability. The guy can pick up and carry BLACK HOLES for crying out loud. I'm a way bigger fan of Dragonball then of DC (bigger fan of Marvel than both, though), but there is no way that Goku can compete with that.

Death Battle used "only" him surviving a supernova for durability. If that's all they got, then the Superman Death Battle used wouldn't stand a chance.

People need to stop focusing so much on strength and whether "lifting strength" is somehow not equivalent to "fighting strength" or some other nonsense. It's durability that's the big issue here. It's a death battle. And Superman pretty much can't die. Well, technically he can but hitting him with plain ol' concussive force is probably the least efficient way to make it happen. With both characters going all out on each other, Goku is going to break far sooner than Superman.

Where is Superman shown to be this durable? As far as I can tell his most impressive feats are-

Destroying a solar system.

Surviving a supernova.

Surviving what Coldcast said was fifteen suns exploding.

Actually, they used Boo arc Goku with Super Saiyan 4. They said that they didn't take GT Goku's feats into account, because his power was terribly inconsistent.

Well, I should've noticed that, otherwise they'd multiply Goku's power by 400 again.

Still, Super Saiyan 4 should still put Goku beyond what Death Battle "proved" Superman's limits to be.

See also this: http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-b ... s-superman

I don't know Superman's limits. I've only seen him in the cartoons, where he's way weaker than in the comics. But the point is Death Battle flubbed up if they represented both characters inaccurately- Goku is just the one I immediately notice because his feats are all in the cartoon I watched when I was a kid. You could say "Well, does it really matter what their exact limits were?". I'd say yes. Yes it does. Death Battle was supposed to show each character's max and show why Character X would beat Y. They didn't do that. They used bullshit methods of determining Goku's durability, speed, and striking power, by assuming that every little piece of background animation means something and ignoring character statements, guidebooks, Online, and simple math- oh wait I forgot, power levels are absurd, and relying on them made the villains underestimate the heroes. Oh wait, never mind, that never happened, the Death Battle guys completely made that up too.

[VegettoEX]

Everything you're saying they "ignored" was stuff that we explicitly gave to them, went back and forth with them on several times, expanded upon with them even after that, etc.

If they didn't use something, they decided that it wasn't appropriate to use for their very specific purposes in the video. That's their prerogative, and I think they gave plenty of justification in the video itself for those items.

The battle power quote was specifically attributed to me, and I went back and forth with them on that a couple times, too (see a pattern here, folks? ^_~). Villains never underestimated the heroes because of battle powers? What? Raditz and Gohan. Ginyu and Goku. Freeza and Trunks. And every single other example in between! It was constant! Right? Right! Right...?

I don't know jack about Superman, but everything I've seen so far tells me that if you throw any more feats, math, etc. anyone's way -- Goku's OR Superman's -- you just have an even more one-sided fight with Superman handily wiping the floor with Goku. Even giving Goku the largest benefit of the doubt gets you nowhere.

C'mon, now! I headed up the research for Goku, and I'm satisfied with the conclusion as-is, so I'm having a SUPER tough time understanding how on Earth anyone else can legitimately have a tough time accepting it. Everything I read to the contrary just comes off as emotional-crazy-talk grasping at straws, usually from folks without a proper understanding of BOTH sides (Goku vs. Superman), which is the entire reason ScrewAttack went to independent research sources for their information to jump off from.

[RandomGuy96]

They didn't underestimate them based on BP. They underestimated them because they could hide their ACTUAL battle powers. That's very, very different. Raditz's scouter couldn't pick up Gohan's actual battle power; he got injured because Gohan's battle power shot up. Ginyu's scouter couldn't determine Goku's battle power; he didn't know Goku's true battle power and was convinced of defeat when he got a glimpse of it. Freeza's soldier's scouter couldn't pick up Trunks' actual battle power, since he was suppressing it to normal human levels. No level ever underestimated someone because of their battle power; they underestimated them because they were mistaken about what their battle power actually was. The battle powers themselves are actually pretty accurate in determining which fighter is stronger, and more are given in the guidebooks, even though they're given for characters who could never be measured by a scouter, so they mean something.

I'm not trying to change their minds. I'm simply stating their video was low quality due to the absolutely absurd and speculative methods it used to determine Goku's power, and the feats that it ignored, like all the stuff in guidebooks and DBO about supernova level firepower being available to SS2-tier fighters. They basically chose to ignore official statements and make up their own formula by looking at tiny pieces of background animation and assuming that those are 100% accurate in the context of the story- and they flat-out made up the unit for the Gero bomb.

I don't care about the result- hell, as characters, I love Superman and absolutely loathe Goku. I care that their methods are nonsensical and they ignored pretty important information. And emotional crazy talk? I clearly outlined why I saw this conclusion as nonsensical, given the solar system busting statement from the guidebooks, and SS2 Vegeta from DBO being capable of supernova-level firepower.

[VegettoEX]

For every guide book statement they could use, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because it's not in the series-proper.

For every extra jumping point from the animation, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because it's not in the manga.

For every manga statement used, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because they didn't use the guide books.

For every Dragon Ball Online statement used, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because a video game sequel is not the series-proper.

They can't make everyone happy, and I'm starting to think the fact that they made ME happy is a nice-enough achievement!

[Hellspawn28]

Can't Bills destroy a galaxy?

That line was only in the trailer. He never said in the film and I doubt he can destroy a galaxy in one shot since no one DBZ character has shown the power to do so.

Well according to OBD Bills and Post-Crisis Superman are around the same ballpark when it comes to power:
http://www.obdwiki.com/character-profile-bills/
http://www.obdwiki.com/character-profile-superman/

A fight between them would be epic!

Fan wikis should be taken with a grain of slat. I know the OBD is pretty smart when it comes to character profiles since I used to be a member of the NF forums in 2009 - 2010. The profile of Bills is not even on the normal OBD wiki for some reason.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

From what I know OBD have changed their wiki to the one that was posted. The old one doesn't get updated when new calcs are made, but this new one does. DBZ has gotten a lot higher power-wise on OBD now as well.

[dbzfan7]

For every guide book statement they could use, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because it's not in the series-proper.

For every extra jumping point from the animation, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because it's not in the manga.

For every manga statement used, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because they didn't use the guide books.

For every Dragon Ball Online statement used, you would have someone arguing it's bullshit because a video game sequel is not the series-proper.

You summed up every DBZ conundrum argument ever.

[miguelnuva1]

Can't Bills destroy a galaxy?

That line was only in the trailer. He never said in the film and I doubt he can destroy a galaxy in one shot since no one DBZ character has shown the power to do so.

Bills says in the movie he'll destroy the entire galaxy.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Uisu says Solar System not Galaxy. Hefty difference.

[Hellspawn28]

Can't Bills destroy a galaxy?

That line was only in the trailer. He never said in the film and I doubt he can destroy a galaxy in one shot since no one DBZ character has shown the power to do so.

Bills says in the movie he'll destroy the entire galaxy.

Herms said in another thread that the line was only in the trailer.

Yeah, it doesn't seem to be in the actual finished film. There's quite a few lines from the previews like that, such as Goku oh so casually asking Birus to fight, whereas in the actual film he does it very politely.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... &start=660

[TheMightyOzaru]

Personally, I'm of the mindset that nobody can beat Superman just by hitting him real hard. There has to be some other trick to weaken him or bypass his durability. Dragon Ball actually has examples of such tricks but they rarely stay relevant for long because Dragon Ball's modus operandi is to always downplay "weird" powers in favor of harder punches and bigger ki waves. Were he a character in the DC universe, Chiaotzu would be rather formidable.

Majin Buu would also be very dangerous in DC. His chocolate beam and absorption would really give Superman trouble. Especially the chocolate beam since it's a magic technique.

[Hellspawn28]

Superman could avoid Buu's Henka Beam since his Torquasm-Vo could stop it. He can did turn into candy then he might able to pull off a Vegito.

[RandomGuy96]

Superman could get absorbed by Buu and create the mightiest Majin: Buuperman.