Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[TonyTheTiger]

Hanasia and Bra aren't Mary Sues. How many Mary Sues have "bitchy" as a main characteristic? They're strong, perhaps unusually so for Hanasia (though let's be honest, Bardock did it first) but they don't have any other qualities that match the idealized perfection "Mary Sue" usually implies.

[Vegito1089]

Hanasia and Bra aren't Mary Sues. How many Mary Sues have "bitchy" as a main characteristic? They're strong, perhaps unusually so for Hanasia (though let's be honest, Bardock did it first) but they don't have any other qualities that match the idealized perfection "Mary Sue" usually implies.

Alice from the Resident Evil movies had a bitchy attitude and she is not any more of a mary sue then Hanasia and Bra in Multiverse. If the characters show that they are overpowered and show that they can do no little to no wrong unless they have a justified reason to be the way the are which in a mary sue term, they dont, they are technically a mary sue. These are going for the "Badass" category of Mary Sues. Being as badass doesn't mean your not a mary sue. Bra is a Dbz stereotype and Hanasia is a Mary Sue because we know nothing about her, she came out of nowhere and she is one of best Saiyans out there.

[Pantalones]

But anyway, saying that Goku base form barely increased at all.. I have to come and say thats pure bullshit.

Who's saying Goku's base form "barely increased at all?"

Being weaker than Freeza in base form doesn't mean he's barely gotten stronger in base since Freeza, because he could still be as high as 119,999,999... which is a huge jump from the 3,000,000 he had in the fight against Freeza, but still "weaker than Freeza" (if only just by a little.) And of course that's nowhere near enough to have the slightest hope of beating #17 in base (but at the same time, waaaaay more than necessary for fighting him in Super Saiyan thanks to the 50x boost... thus the one-punch-knockout situation mentioned in that excerpt of the French fanfic.)

[rereboy]

1. Um that universe Vegeta is nothing like Main Universe Vegeta. Vegeta is a good guy now and why would that universe Vegeta be good? Gohan is smart but he is not stupid. This Vegeta wont change overnight. First off, it took Goku dying to start the whole thing, Vegeta main drive was to kill Goku and achieve his ultimate destiny of his saiyan honor. But after Goku died, Vegeta had nothing left to fight for anymore and gave up fighting, he gave up his mission to live up to his royal honor. Vegeta trained after that was to either teach Trunks a thing or two on fighting and to keep himself in shape. He wasnt out for blood anymore and that took 7 years, it taught him what he does have: a family and a home. It pretty much comes to this, Goku dying and a 7 year gap. Thats how Vegeta started to become good.
This Universe Vegeta has NO reason to become a good guy especially when he is from a universe thats dominated by him. Vegeta has nothing in his mind to redeem, he doesnt care about right and wrong, the Saiyans were evil from the getgo. They shrug and laugh at morality, they were pretty much barbarians, they would laugh at the deaths of millions of people. If Vegeta has to pull a charade and lie to gain more power, he would do that. He has done this before with Freeza. He doesnt care who he has to lie and backstab, he will do it. This Vegeta is literally the Saiyan Prince, his destiny is full of murder and pain onto others. This Vegeta is worse then how Main Universe Vegeta because this Vegeta got everything and now he is even more crueler then he has ever been.
Gohan knows this, it was explained to him and he knows that Vegeta will do anything for more power. Its happened once throughout the series, so why would Gohan play ignorant and assume that Vegeta will become good to gain more power? More power will fuel Vegeta ego and bloodlust.

He is still Vegeta so there's a chance that he can change. But if he doesn't, he won't get the power up. If he does, he might get the power up, and in that case, since he really has started to change, there's no real problem in him becoming stronger. Besides, even with the power up, he will almost certainly still be weaker than Gohan and the other fighters that are stronger than Gohan.

So, what exactly is the problem...? I seem to recall your problem with it was that Gohan made a stupid decision. But, like I've demonstrated, It's far from stupid. Its pretty well thought up by Gohan.

2. Its easily to argue the Mary Sues, they are just thrown in there for the fights and are WAY overpowered. Bardocks wife and Vegettos daughter, I will kind of excuse Vegetto daughter because of Bra being conceived by Vegetto and that will naturally make her very strong at birth but shes a big Dbz stereotype and thats whats kind of annoying but I will excuse it. But Bardocks wife came out of nowhere and she was stronger then all of the Saiyans. She is a blank slate of a character, we dont know even what rank she is and thats important because Saiyans rank there infants at birth. Are we suppose to assume shes a low class level because shes with Bardock? She was just thrown in there for no reason only to look pretty and badass. The whole point of Bardock special was to prove that Bardock was becoming on par with King Vegeta and King Vegeta is to be claimed to be strongest Saiyan at that moment in time. Freeza and King Vegeta would keep an eye on this lady if she was canon, they would have not let her live if she was this powerful, she would have been exterminated a long time ago. So keep this in mind, if this character were that strong, where was she? Why was she never mentioned before? King Vegeta would kill her so that no one can dethrone him and Freeza would kill her so that no one would dethrone him on his empire. Also far as we know, Bardocks wife is just a local Saiyan or she should be but this character is just one big mary sue in this fan manga.

So, your reason to state that "almost every character here that matters is overpowered and every original Saiyan is a mary sue" is only because of two characters of this fan manga. One of them you even admit that there's a perfectly valid reason for her to that strong, so I guess your problem is just with one character and not two after all. And that character doesn't even appear in the main story and just made an appearance in a special. Still, in your mind, that's justification to say that "almost every character here that matters is overpowered and every original Saiyan is a mary sue". Like I said, solid arguments.

Also about the whole 17 vs Goku debate. What are you trying to say? That Goku base form is barely increasing over the years?

Like Pantalones said, since the SSJ form gives a 50 times power increase, Goku in his base form in the Buu saga could be, for example, 45 times stronger than he was in his base in the Namek saga. That's a huge increase in his base, but still not large enough to top his power as a SSJ in Namek because that made him 50 times stronger.

So, no, that's not what I was saying at all. He can still have a huge increase of power in his base without becoming more powerful in his base than he was as a SSJ in Namek, and nothing in the manga suggests that this isn't the case.

[TonyTheTiger]

If the characters show that they are overpowered and show that they can do no little to no wrong unless they have a justified reason to be the way the are which in a mary sue term, they dont, they are technically a mary sue.

"Little to no wrong"? So Hanasia, who is shown to be at least as screwed up in the head as every other Saiyan and gets killed by Raichi along with the rest does "little to no wrong"? Bra, who hasn't done a single thing yet that wasn't berated by Vegetto or Gohan, can do "little to no wrong"? Not to mention, "overpowered" is a relative term. Gast Carcolh is arguably "overpowered." King Cold is definitely "overpowered." Cell? He's clearly much stronger than he was before. Hell, Vegetto's entire schtick is "lol hax!" Gohan just had a conversation explaining how Vegeta can make his way to "overpowered." An overpowered character isn't a Mary Sue when every other major character is also overpowered. Mary Sue-ness is relative to the rest of the cast since the entire point of a Mary Sue is to look better in comparison to everyone else. Bra is just one insanely strong character among many.

These are going for the "Badass" category of Mary Sues. Being as badass doesn't mean your not a mary sue. Bra is a Dbz stereotype...

If she's a stereotype then that's she's blatantly not a Mary Sue since, as a stereotype, she fits right within the context of the rest of the cast. Actual Mary Sues are placed on pedestals. Bra is a habitual fuck up and gets chewed out for it constantly. Show me the pedestal.

...and Hanasia is a Mary Sue because we know nothing about her, she came out of nowhere and she is one of best Saiyans out there.

You literally just described Bardock. See, this is the problem with calling Hanasia a Mary Sue. She's literally a female Bardock, which is perfectly in context with the rest of DBZ, hence not a Mary Sue. Unimaginative, maybe. But not a Mary Sue.

People, seriously. Learn what the word actually means before throwing it around.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

There are plenty of things to criticize about DBM but an abundance of Mary Sues is not one of them.

[omegalucas]

There WAS one Mary Sue in this... the character actually named Mary Sue who was one hit KO-d by Arale.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Freeza...committing espionage? ...Huh. That's actually kind of a cool thing I wouldn't have seen coming.

[Vegito1089]

You haven't demonstrated anything that proves that Vegeta might change other then he is Vegeta and that our Vegeta changed so why cant he? In the original canon, it took the very death of a person that he went bloodlusted over. The low class saiyan, a joke of the entire race and continually being outclassed by him in every way. Vegeta was not used to this and it goes agaisnt everything that Vegeta knew about his Saiyan race, not only that but Goku took his purpose after taking out Frieza. Its not just a pedestal of strength, its a pedestal of honor. When Goku died, he literally lost everything, he will never get that honor back and with his life goal pretty much erased, he pretty much decide to sit down and realize what he does have: a family, he has a home and he has so much now, a new life. His Saiyan life is gone now and Vegeta enjoys his new life more. This took a seven year gap of literally doing nothing but to scratch out his old way of life out of his head.
And this other universe Vegeta comes from a world where Saiyans dominated. Goku never took his honor, Vegeta was never beaten by a low class Saiyan and Vegeta always remained on top as the Saiyan Prince. He climbed his way up to power, killed Frieza and ruled over his universe. His purpose in life complete and now he has a new purpose, pretty much being no better then Frieza. This Vegeta will not be good. Vegeta will lie to get this power. Theres no justified reason for him becoming good. You dont just go "Hmm if I become good, I'll become stronger" and then slowly change. In Vegeta's mind, he will always be the strongest and if someone else is stronger, he will work to make sure he surpasses them. Lie, kill, backstab and betray, it wont matter to him. Vegeta became good but it took a long time and a lot of breaks were given to him just by the fact that enemys kept coming. If Goku didnt die at the Cell Games, Vegeta would have become the next villian.


As for me excusing Bra, thats because it has a little bit of leway because she has a little bit of exposition in her backstory but thats all she has, we know nothing about her personality wise. All we know is that shes this gruff and mean Saiyan warrior. A tamer version of how Saiyans really were. Basically, a Dbz stereotype. We know nothing about Bardock wife and there is no justifiable way for her to be at the state of strength she is without being terminated by the higher ups wither its King Vegeta or Frieza. The other Saiyans respect her despite that she may be a Low Class Saiyan. But since you say I have no clue on what a Mary sue is, here is a link. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary-Sue
Hanasia, Original Saiyan that came out of nowhere and she is strongest Saiyan alive at the moment with no explanation given. Check
Hanasia acts smug or superior to a friends, husband and comrades. Check
I can go on and on. Again its a fanmade manga but when you have so many changes and such a large following, some people are going to be annoyed. And at least one person out there will say, this makes no sense.

[TonyTheTiger]

We know nothing about Bardock wife...

We know nothing about Bardock himself, really.

...and there is no justifiable way for her to be at the state of strength she is without being terminated by the higher ups wither its King Vegeta or Freeza. The other Saiyans respect her despite that she may be a Low Class Saiyan. But since you say I have no clue on what a Mary sue is, here is a link. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary-Sue
Hanasia, Original Saiyan that came out of nowhere and she is strongest Saiyan alive at the moment with no explanation given. Check
Hanasia acts smug or superior to a friends, husband and comrades. Check
I can go on and on.

You keep saying this but that's the exact same description you could give to Bardock in his TV special. Seriously, replace "Hanasia" with "Bardock" in this paragraph and it's a perfect match. And, unlike Bardock, Hanasia isn't even a Super Saiyan. I just can't fathom how "female Bardock that got killed by Raichi" is anything close to a Mary Sue. I'm not even saying she's an especially good character. She's just not a Mary Sue. Even your Urban Dictionary definition. The very first sentence starts "a character so perfect..." Well, again, certainly not perfect enough to escape being killed.

[rereboy]

You haven't demonstrated anything that proves that Vegeta might change other then he is Vegeta and that our Vegeta changed so why cant he? In the original canon, it took the very death of a person that he went bloodlusted over. The low class saiyan, a joke of the entire race and continually being outclassed by him in every way. Vegeta was not used to this and it goes agaisnt everything that Vegeta knew about his Saiyan race, not only that but Goku took his purpose after taking out Freeza. Its not just a pedestal of strength, its a pedestal of honor. When Goku died, he literally lost everything, he will never get that honor back and with his life goal pretty much erased, he pretty much decide to sit down and realize what he does have: a family, he has a home and he has so much now, a new life. His Saiyan life is gone now and Vegeta enjoys his new life more. This took a seven year gap of literally doing nothing but to scratch out his old way of life out of his head.
And this other universe Vegeta comes from a world where Saiyans dominated. Goku never took his honor, Vegeta was never beaten by a low class Saiyan and Vegeta always remained on top as the Saiyan Prince. He climbed his way up to power, killed Freeza and ruled over his universe. His purpose in life complete and now he has a new purpose, pretty much being no better then Freeza. This Vegeta will not be good. Vegeta will lie to get this power. Theres no justified reason for him becoming good. You dont just go "Hmm if I become good, I'll become stronger" and then slowly change. In Vegeta's mind, he will always be the strongest and if someone else is stronger, he will work to make sure he surpasses them. Lie, kill, backstab and betray, it wont matter to him. Vegeta became good but it took a long time and a lot of breaks were given to him just by the fact that enemys kept coming. If Goku didnt die at the Cell Games, Vegeta would have become the next villian.

If he doesn't change his ways, he doesn't get the power up. Problem solved. And if he changes his ways, then him getting the power up wouldn't be really a problem. Problem solved. And even if he didn't change his ways and somehow got the power up, he would still be weaker than Gohan and several other fighters. Not a problem. So how exactly did your wall of text actually contribute or was an argument for your point of Gohan being stupid for doing what he did?

Unlike you, Gohan actually seems to have considered all the possible scenarios and outcomes, even unlikely ones like Vegeta changing his ways, and the plan he came up with apparently serves all of his interests flawlessly. According to you that's being stupid, right?

As for me excusing Bra, thats because it has a little bit of leway because she has a little bit of exposition in her backstory but thats all she has, we know nothing about her personality wise. All we know is that shes this gruff and mean Saiyan warrior. A tamer version of how Saiyans really were. Basically, a Dbz stereotype. We know nothing about Bardock wife and there is no justifiable way for her to be at the state of strength she is without being terminated by the higher ups wither its King Vegeta or Freeza. The other Saiyans respect her despite that she may be a Low Class Saiyan. But since you say I have no clue on what a Mary sue is, here is a link. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary-Sue
Hanasia, Original Saiyan that came out of nowhere and she is strongest Saiyan alive at the moment with no explanation given. Check
Hanasia acts smug or superior to a friends, husband and comrades. Check
I can go on and on. Again its a fanmade manga but when you have so many changes and such a large following, some people are going to be annoyed. And at least one person out there will say, this makes no sense.

I'm sorry, but its your arguments that don't make any sense. There's lots of things and flaws that could be pointed out regarding DBM but you seem to be struggling to actually come up with a logical one. If you don't like DBM, just say you don't like it, you are free to do so. But if you are going to review it or criticize it, at least come up with some logical and reasonable arguments.

[Attitudefan]

The more interesting character loses to a lesser interesting character. What's new?

[Rocketman]

Hanasia is not a Mary Sue. She's a horribly cliche character with no redeeming or interesting qualities, but not a Mary Sue.

[CaBrPi]

Hanasia is not a Mary Sue. She's a horribly cliche character with no redeeming or interesting qualities, but not a Mary Sue.

That's... an apt description. Rocketman strikes again.

[miguelnuva1]

so will Vegito vs XXI live up to the 2 year long hype, could be longer.

[CaBrPi]

so will Vegito vs XXI live up to the 2 year long hype, could be longer.

Probably not. I get the feeling XXI will end up being a red herring.

[miguelnuva1]

So who's hoping that when Vegito goes Evil Gogeta steps up to the plate to challenge him.

[Marco Polo]

Gogeta would be no match for him.

[goku the krump dancer]

Gogeta would be no match for him.

Why not? Goku and Vegeta are stronger than they were in the Boo arc so when/if they fuse it'll result in a stronger Gogeta from the one scene in Movie 12.

On top of that its stated that in the U16 special, Vegetto hasn't had any really challenges in his universe, any type of demon or god that came his way he dealt with fairly casually.

Any type of training he did do was mostly trying to bring Bra up to speed, not saying he hasn't improved at all but yea, I think a fight between him and Gogeta would be fairly even.

[TonyTheTiger]

Considering the main DBM website has Gogeta and Vegetto fist bumping I'm going to assume Goku and Vegeta will fuse. I'm actually expecting Gogetto at some point. Especially after this Potara stuff which sounds like a clear cut Chekhov's Gun to me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Gogeta would be no match for him.

Why not? Goku and Vegeta are stronger than they were in the Boo arc so when/if they fuse it'll result in a stronger Gogeta from the one scene in Movie 12.

On top of that its stated that in the U16 special, Vegetto hasn't had any really challenges in his universe, any type of demon or god that came his way he dealt with fairly casually.

Any type of training he did do was mostly trying to bring Bra up to speed, not saying he hasn't improved at all but yea, I think a fight between him and Gogeta would be fairly even.

What, you expect Vegetto not to train hard? He is part Vegeta and part Goku, both of which strive to be the strongest. Gogeta is no match for Vegetto whatsoever.