Goku's dub personality

[TheBlackPaladin]

No English voice actor has ever captured Goku correctly. The problem with the search for an actor to voice the character is not only to find one who can give a believable voice to the character, but also do the character justice. Sean Schemmel in my opinion, does neither. That's why I'm dreading a FUNI dub of Battle of Gods.

Could you clarify what you mean by "believable voice"? Sean Schemmel uses his natural speaking voice for Goku.

[penguintruth]

I have no trouble with tried-and-true superheroism. Batman, Superman, these are fictional characters I enjoy immensely, in the right light. Superman's heroism and moral code is inspirational. Batman's persistence and endurance in the face of a parade of tragedies is likewise. A simpler moral code (though stretched a bit) in a hero is fine, if given the right circumstances. I don't need some super-grey, anti-hero all the time.

But you see, Goku isn't the moral pillar that Supes is, and frankly, he wouldn't be as interesting in the situations he gets in if he were. I don't want to insult either Goku OR Superman by claiming Goku is "too superheroic" in the English dub, either. When I used to describe Sean Schemmel's performance as "generic superhero" I was probably miscommunicating. It was really more of a conventional cartoon action hero delivery and cadence. He didn't have a lot of personality to him, and what little he could muster seemed very forced and confined. Partially, this was due to the inaccurate scripts which I assume were designed to skew the character to a more traditional heroism because it was easier (or they felt it was easier) for American audiences to swallow. But also, Schemmel seemed right for that part, for the guy who is more of a traditional, heroic muscled man with stock delivery. To be frank, Superman has been blessed with actors like Tim Daly and George Newbern who actually wrung more personality out of the character than Schemmel did from Goku.

Sean Schemmel fit the old mold of dub Goku, but it wasn't the Goku I was looking for. Fortunately in time, Schemmel improved somewhat, and thanks to that and better scripts, we have his Kai performance, which is a reasonable one. I'm not certain whether or not a better performance from him is possible, or if it's possible to emulate the speaking pattern of Japanese Goku in a sensible way in English.

When I use "superhero" as an insult to the English dub Goku, I mean that it's more like a sanitized, oversimplified mold of what we think of American made superheroes. The idea of a superhero, not what a particular one would be. To say that would be doing a disservice to specific characters like Superman.

[Kaboom]

Goku, the real Goku, certainly is a hero to some extent. But his brand of heroism is a different and somewhat more selfish one than what you typically see from other goody two-shoes in tights... like his son. He doesn't do heroic things out of an ingrained sense of justice or great responsibility. No, when Goku does heroic things like fighting evildoers and protecting the weak and helpless... it's almost always because Goku himself is directly involved. The villain will have either attacked Goku directly, or threatened or already hurt HIS friends or family, or HIS planet.

He fought the Red Ribbon Army and Tao Pai Pai because he was just looking for the 4-star Dragon Ball, and not only were they his rivals in that goal, but they attacked him and his friends and even killed one of them (Bora) in the process. He fought King Piccolo to avenge Kuririn. He fought Raditz because he kidnapped Gohan. He fought Nappa and Vegeta because they intended to conquer Earth and killed some of his friends. And so on, and so forth.

And sometimes, Goku does heroic things just because people ask him to. "Goku, Broly/Paikuhan is causing trouble down in Hell. Take care of that, will you?"

[ABED]

I don't like the implication that Goku's not a superhero or even a hero because his heroics are incidental. Yes he's not out to save the day, but why does he need to be? He's heroic because he's pushing himself to be the best he can be, lives life to the fullest, and he wouldn't hurt anyone unless he feels he or someone he cares about was threatened. I also don't like the implication that selfishness is a bad thing, as if doing stuff for others is inherently noble. I know I'm going against the predominant view of ethics but lets face it, given how crappy the world often is, I'd say it's about time we rethought the concept of a proper moral code. Why does justice require people to go out of their way to save people? What kind of morality is that? Justice is about treating people as they deserve. If anything, Goku gives people far more than they deserve. He doesn't have a well thought out moral code. It's more implicit.

A hero is simply someone who overcomes adversity. That's Goku in spades.

Goku isn't a hero to SOME extent. He's a hero - PERIOD!

As to Schemmel's performance, I like it way more than Kelamis, and think he's greatly improved over the years. You can't blame him for the superhero performance he gave before. He did as directed, but with good direction he's more than admirable. He's my second favorite Goku. The one thing I think they could've done to make it more accurate was make his grammar a little worse.

[DemonRin]

I don't like the implication that Goku's not a superhero or even a hero because his heroics are incidental.

I don't think anyone is trying to make the argument that the true character of Son Goku is not a heroic one. The character has his heroic moments, the part I like best is that he's not a conventional hero and fights for unconventional reasons, but ultimately he's a hero, bottom line.

When people make negative comments about him being a "Superhero" it's not meant in that "Person who does super-heroic acts" but more the stereotype of what an American comic book "Superhero" is. More specifically, a Silver Age Hero from right around the time the Comics Code started. Meaning, completely black and white morality, no third dimension to the character, he fights for "Truth" and "Justice" without ever wavering or questioning why. He's simply a good guy who fights bad guys for no other reason than "I'm the good guy, they're the bad guys". That's what the character of Son Goku was turned into in the dub pre-Kai.

[CaBrPi]

Goku is, at worst, Chaotic Good.

[Super Sonic]

That's why I get confused on why guys think it's a negative thing to call him a superhero. Grant, I'm young and read more Marvel and post-crisis DC coming up. And Penguintruth's mentioning of vas has me partially picturing Mr. Newburn playing Goku and Turles using his normal voice for Goku and his Sephiroth voice for Turles.

[jjgp1112]

People on here exaggerate Goku's dub portrayal just as much as they exaggerate his Japanese portrayal as well. He's not exactly Einstein in the dub, either. I got the naive goofy vibe from Goku long before ever reading the manga.

[DemonRin]

That's why I get confused on why guys think it's a negative thing to call him a superhero. Grant, I'm young and read more Marvel and post-crisis DC coming up. And Penguintruth's mentioning of vas has me partially picturing Mr. Newburn playing Goku and Tullece using his normal voice for Goku and his Sephiroth voice for Tullece.

Again, nobody is claiming that Superheroes are bad, I loves me some American comic books, especially the Bat Family.

The general complaint is that he's kindof... Silver Age hero. During the Silver age they created something called the "Comics Code" because some guy wrote a book and went on a crusade against comics, causing HUGE public backlash. The code was meant to keep comics "Good and Safe" for kids, and that meant pretty much all 3 dimensional characters were done away with. Everything became black and white. There were good guys, and there were bad guys, end of story. They weren't even allowed to write stories about corrupt cops/government officials because that was too much of a moral gray area ("But... how can a cop be bad if the cops are supposed to be the good guys?!" so you'd never have a character like Superman opposing the Government for any reason. He was simply good because he was the good guy and it was his role in the story to BE the good guy.

Here's an example of what I mean.

He's fighting crime not because he has any real reason to or an explained motive, but because he's "Superman, Mighty foe of evildoers" and that was a good enough explanation.

When the comics code was finally lifted, Superman and most superheroes become 3 dimensional characters. They could have grey areas in their morality, and it was ok. They could question what they were doing, and have motivations beyond "I do it because I'm the good guy" so you end up with a Superman who will openly fight the President of the United States, despite the moral quagmire that puts him in. Like so.



When people rag on Dubku for being too "Super Hero"ish, we mean the Silver Age kind of "Oh dear golly whiz, Lex Luthor is stealing pies again! This looks like a job for Superman!" kind of Super Hero rather than the modern portrayal.

[rereboy]

Why does justice require people to go out of their way to save people? What kind of morality is that? Justice is about treating people as they deserve.

Then nobody would go out of their way to do nice things to other people. They would just limit themselves and do strictly what they think they deserve. And then there's the problem of "what they deserve" being a completely subjective notion and one that is severely prone to exaggerated reactions.

If you study the evolution of the various judicial systems worldwide I believe it would become clear to you why they have generally moved from a simplistic "retribution" system to a much more complex system that takes into consideration all the relevant factors to try to produce the best possible result for society, while respecting all the people's expectations as much as possible.

What you suggest is not only a throwback in morality but it also mean a throwback regarding the evolution of the various judicial systems worldwide.

A hero is simply someone who overcomes adversity. That's Goku in spades.

I overcome adversity all the time. In my job and in my life in general. And so do most people. Am I a hero for it? In fact I'm sure that there are lots of bad guys out there who overcome many adversities. Are they heroes?

Being a hero is so much more than that. It implies that that person is an inspiration to others, that he transcends the ordinary in pursuit of a worthwhile or noble goal, despite the fact of how hard that goal ends up being. This is a much more accurate definition of a hero, I believe. And Goku generally fits the description.

[ABED]

Why does justice require people to go out of their way to save people? What kind of morality is that? Justice is about treating people as they deserve.

Then nobody would go out of their way to do nice things to other people. They would just limit themselves and do strictly what they think they deserve. And then there's the problem of "what they deserve" being a completely subjective notion and one that is severely prone to exaggerated reactions.

If you study the evolution of the various judicial systems worldwide I believe it would become clear to you why they have generally moved from a simplistic "retribution" system to a much more complex system that takes into consideration all the relevant factors to try to produce the best possible result for society, while respecting all the people's expectations as much as possible.

What you suggest is not only a throwback in morality but it also mean a throwback regarding the evolution of the various judicial systems worldwide.

A hero is simply someone who overcomes adversity. That's Goku in spades.

I overcome adversity all the time. In my job and in my life in general. And so do most people. Am I a hero for it? In fact I'm sure that there are lots of bad guys out there who overcome many adversities. Are they heroes?

Being a hero is so much more than that. It implies that that person is an inspiration to others, that he transcends the ordinary in pursuit of a worthwhile or noble goal, despite the fact of how hard that goal ends up being. This is a much more accurate definition of a hero, I believe. And Goku generally fits the description.

Plenty of people would go out of their way to help others, not because of some sense of justice but just because they enjoy helping people.

I didn't mean retribution when I said justice means treating people how they deserve to be treated. You inferred that. Taking into account relevant factors IS what I'm talking about when I talk about treating people as they should be. Justice isn't primarily about "society", it can apply on an individual level as well. I never said it was easy, but living a moral life rarely is.

I would say that people like Thomas Edison is most definitely a hero. He spent hours toiling away to make his inventions and created things that make people's lives better (eg the light bulb). I would consider that a hero. Maybe it's not simply overcoming adversity, perhaps "showing courage and overcoming adversity in the face of danger."

Goku isn't a conventional hero, but he's definitely a hero.

I think this conversation is going off the track so if you want to continue, PM me.

Bottom line, I think Goku is most definitely a hero. His motives might not be to save the world, but that's not a prerequisit.

[Nikkolas]

We are talking about Goku in Funi's "Z", right?

Even then I don't recall many "speeches" after Season 3. I could be forgetting some though.

Regardless though, the dub kept Goku's "I want to fight Vegeta even though it will revive an unstoppable killing machine" intact. Therefore I submit he is no more or no less heroic in the dub than in the original.

[TheBlackPaladin]

First off, before I go any further, let me just say that this has been one of my favorite discussions to read. I was thinking about starting a topic not too long ago entitled, "How heroic is Goku?", and really, that's what this conversation has come to be about. Some EXCELLENT analyses by several Kanzenshuuers...this kind of discussion is why I'm so glad I found Kanzenshuu (then still Daizenshuu-EX), and was liberated from the...ahem.......often less-than-intelligent "discussions" on YouTube.

Anyways, back on topic.

Even then I don't recall many "speeches" after Season 3. I could be forgetting some though.

I think you bring up a good point in that, since the dub improved as it went along, we almost need to mention which part of the dub we're talking about when we mention Goku's "dub personality." I think that when everybody--myself included--saw the phrase, "dub personality," we all automatically thought of Season 3, because that's when the differences in the dub and the source material were most evident. We were all thinking about the DBZ dub, too, rather than the Kai dub.

[Nikkolas]

We were all thinking about the DBZ dub, too, rather than the Kai dub.

I was actually talking about the DB dub in my post. Most of the discussion has been about Adult Goku's "dub personality" after all.

I thought Kid Goku's personality was handled well in the DB dub was my point and I wondered if anyone had any thoughts on that.

[ABED]

I can't recall off the top of my head specific moments in the DB dub where Goku is more superhero, but I do remember there being a few here and there. THere is one instance where a bit of dialog was completely out of character. In the episode where Goku draws lots for the 22nd Budokai, he tells the announcer "nice suit" or something to that effect. Goku would never say that. The only time Goku talks about clothing is usually in a negative light, like when he insults Kaio-sama's uniform. He sure as hell wouldn't admire someone's tailored suit.

[theoriginalbilis]

Plenty of people would go out of their way to help others, not because of some sense of justice but just because they enjoy helping people.

Not to be too serious, but as soon as I read this, this is the first thing that came to my mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYV9iWdZHHw#t=03m12s

[WesMan23]

In the early days of FUNi's Z dub, they did have Goku pretty wrong. To me, Goku is like a cat. Yes, he's friendly, but he's also aloof. He just disappears for awhile at a time, but he eventually reappears, kind of like a housecat runs outside, cavorts around for a bit, and comes back like nothing happened. In the same way, he's protective of those close to him, especially when threatened. He's "intelligent" in the same way a cat is as well. Certainly not as smart as some other species, but when it comes to specific things. Cats are smart when it comes to hunting, whereas Goku is smart when it comes to being a fighter. He is quite playful as well. Plus, his hair stands on end when he gets angry or threatened. He's a hero, yes. He has helped save Earth, along with other planets, many times, but being a hero is not his primary character. Goku is flawed, he is not the perfect person by any means, but he's a great companion, and he provides and helps whoever he can. Yet he can just disappear for a time, and come back whenever he's ready. Plus, he's died many times. Cats have 9 lives and seem to be able to resist damage well enough.

That's how I see Goku's personality. A typical housecat who loves his family and household, but has no qualms about leaving. Not super intelligent, but what he is smart with, he is very smart with, an innate instinct, not hunting in this case, but fighting. He's not Superman. He's Milo, or whatever a good cat name is, a typical cat, who loves to eat, compete, play around, and then run off and do his own thing.

[Chuquita]

I've never thought about it like that before. Goku's-like-a-cat definitely works.

It also reminds me of this BOG fanart I saw several days back. X3

Source: http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php? ... d=35019661

[goku the krump dancer]

None of the Shonen protagonist (or at least the ones I know of) are heroes in the traditional Superman/Batman sense but they are indeed heroes.

[matt0044]

@WesMan23 Wow. That's quite the comparison. Fitting though.