Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Kakarot88 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:27 pm

rereboy wrote:
Besides, we don't even know how DB's moon compares to the real moon.
Well, actually at the back of one of the Takoubon Dragon Ball Manga's in response to a fan letter Toriyama-sensei did say the moon in Dragon Ball was the same distance from Earth as he believed our moon was which is around 380,000km.

Image

Here is Kanzenshuu's link for said reference: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/tankobon/vol-09/

Hope that helps.


Granted I am sure you could still argue that does not mean we know if the moon's durability is the same as the real moon, and that it does appear physically different because the rabbit gang and Goku appeared to be breathing there and there were no horrific tidal consequences due to its loss in 2 different instances as well as its random return after Piccolo destroys it blah blah blah...


the point I think the other person was trying to make was merely that the beam appeared to cover that distance instantaneously as Gohan was going to kill him and the panels show him fire and instant explosion. But sure arguably we can throw common sense out the window and say Piccolo was chilling for a good long while maybe even an hour and then it blew up :think:
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by rereboy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:34 pm

Kakarot88 wrote:

the point I think the other person was trying to make was merely that the beam appeared to cover that distance instantaneously as Gohan was going to kill him and the panels show him fire and instant explosion.
I understood his point, that's why I stated that, by following science rules, it would be impossible for the explosion to be immediately seen on Earth, even if the Ki blast traveled to the moon faster than light (because we can only see light and that's how we see an explosion, by seeing its light, which obviously travels at the speed of light and would not reach Earth instantaneously).

As for the distance to the moon, I forgot about that interview. If we consider it canon, then its distance is indeed the same as in the real world.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:43 pm

rereboy wrote:
The Monkey King wrote:
What would you guys think if Goku joined the Justice League and trained with them etc?
I think it would be pretty cool 8)
He would be definitely one of the strongest if not the strongest besides Superman. So, of course he would be a huge help to them. However, I think he would also annoy them somewhat with his personality. Hmm batman and goku interactions... :lol:
I think he'd get along best with Wonder Woman (both being born fighters and all), he'd probably bother Batman though, I could imagine Bruce destroying his body if Goku tried the teach him the kaio-ken technique. :lol:

I think he would see Superman as an older brother figure but would be annoyed at his constant refusal to fight him.

He'd probably meditate with Martian Manhunter and would use a Green Lantern Ring for fun, but he'd probably be pretty good with it due to his years of ki control training.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:02 pm

Dude Goku needs to be apart of the Justice League now! DC needs the rights.
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:36 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Why are you demanding feats from Superman, yet saying that Buuhan could beat him based on some guy's math? If you compare feats, Buuhan has nothing that puts him anywhere near Superman.
It's not just some guy's math, it's the feat of Goku going from one side of the planet to the other in a second, among other things. I'd like to hear statements saying that Superman is that strong or fast as well, like in the Death Battle video where they said that Batman estimated his maximum speed as greater than the one Death Battle gave him. Again, does he have any?

Of course Buuhan doesn't have many feats, because he didn't really have any reason to show off any power in the context of the story (unless you count him nearly collapsing the universe in filler), but he is known to be several dozens, if not hundreds, of times stronger than Cell, someone the guidebooks confirmed is a solar system buster, and is also known to be thousands of times stronger than Namek Goku, who went from one side of an Earth-sized planet to the other in a second.
And I'm assuming that you're talking about Deathstroke taking on the Justice League in Identity Crisis. Deathstroke had already played out that entire fight in his head, and is a master at predicting opponents movements. He has 90% of his brain capacity; he can do that.
The Flash is FASTER THAN LIGHT. To get hit by Deathstroke, Deathstroke would either have to have his sword moving at FTL speeds (with Deathstroke himself having nanonsecond reactions) or the Flash would have to jump on what to him would be a stationary object.
How do you know that Freeza's blasts were faster than light? How do you know Piccolo's were? If they were faster than light, why couldn't Goku save everyone when Buu destroyed Earth? Why couldn't he have teleported Cell, picked up Kaio and Bubbles, and teleported back?
Go watch/read the scene where Piccolo blows up the moon. In video, it takes a second. On panel, he raises his hand, and in the next panel, the moon blows up.
Who says Flash was moving at the speed of light? He just had to be outrunning the explosions, and by doing so, he ran into the sword.
And what does being a "solar system buster" even mean? Does he mean he can blow up the sun, which would destroy the solar system? Does it mean he could annihilate it all at once? Does it mean that he'd have to individually blow up each planet? Unless you have a concrete definition of what Cell was going to do, then that quote means nothing.
We don't know how much time passes between panels.
Do we know how big Namek is? Who says that he was on the other side of the planet? Who says that it was in a second? Gohan and Krillin were unable to move, and Vegeta wasn't far off. Why wouldn't they be in similar positions? It is completely in Recoome's character for him stand there and taunt them while they're injured.

And as for Superman feats http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/ ... s/?a=49617 If you want more, just let me know.
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Rocketman » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:53 pm

Dragonball's Moon orbits ten times closer to its parent than our Moon does.

The real Earth viewed from the Moon:
Image

DB's Earth viewed from its Moon:
Image

A screenshot from a space simulator I modified to move the Moon to 25,000 miles from Earth.
Image

You can also see that the curvature of DB's Moon is much more pronounced than ours, meaning DB's Moon is smaller.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by TonyTheTiger » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:18 pm

Not to mention, the second you start being super literal minded about things like Piccolo's moon sequence, suddenly you find yourself paralyzed by all the fridge logic that extends from that. After all, anyone want to try to explain how Superman can hear faster than sound travels? Or how about if he's moving faster than light, can he see where he's going? The more you overthink it (by ignoring the obvious plot points in favor of the meaningless and usually contradictory minutia that is the mere consequence of non-scientific writing) the less sense both characters make, which makes the entire exercise pointless.

Seriously, think about it in terms of author intent. Was Piccolo's attack really intended to produce the thought "Wow, the moon must either be really close or his beam is faster than light!" Or was it meant to elicit "Holy shit, he blew up the moon!" Prioritize your data. Don't lose the forest for the trees.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by The Monkey King » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:00 pm

If Toriyama says the distance from the moon is 380,000 km away from Earth then it is.

It's like me calculating the huge boulders goku pushed as.a kid to say he can lift way over 40 tons.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by TonyTheTiger » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:39 pm

But taking that number and then extrapolating Piccolo's beam speed based on visual timing that is more about obvious narrative needs than a demonstration of a particular skill is just plain silly. It's just way too meta for our purposes. It'd be like judging Kratos by the fact that the environment around him is apparently impervious to his attack. You'd think a guy who can slay gods wouldn't need to fiddle with switches to raise a gate. Or all those RPG heroes who can pummel monsters with a meteor barrage and summon all the elements of nature yet have a hell of a time crossing small streams of water and overcoming waist high fences. But, ya know, video game and all that.

The same applies to any medium. The moon scene was a demonstration of Piccolo's power, not his attack speed. The reason the moon blew up so fast? Because it needed to. It didn't blow up fast for the purpose of informing the audience that Piccolo's attack was faster than light. It blew up fast because it just needed to blow up and doing it fast is necessary to keep the story moving. Read between the lines to extract the purpose of the scene.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Bussani » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:33 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku going from one side of the planet to the other in under a second is also pretty clear
You keep saying that, but what makes you think he was on the other side of the planet? I thought Freeza's ship was right near the action. After all, you could still see the ship from the spot they took the dragon balls to when they go to summon Porunga, and later on, Goku and Freeza could see Porunga nearby from where they were fighting. So unless the fight went all the way around the planet and conveniently back to where it started, I don't think they ever went too far.
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:44 am

Bussani wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku going from one side of the planet to the other in under a second is also pretty clear
You keep saying that, but what makes you think he was on the other side of the planet? I thought Freeza's ship was right near the action. After all, you could still see the ship from the spot they took the dragon balls to when they go to summon Porunga, and later on, Goku and Freeza could see Porunga nearby from where they were fighting. So unless the fight went all the way around the planet and conveniently back to where it started, I don't think they ever went too far.
He never specified if he's referring to when Goku went to fight Freeza, or when Goku first landed on Namek and went to save Gohan and Krillin from Recoome. Either way, there's no indication that he flew all the way across the planet.
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:54 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Bussani wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku going from one side of the planet to the other in under a second is also pretty clear
You keep saying that, but what makes you think he was on the other side of the planet? I thought Freeza's ship was right near the action. After all, you could still see the ship from the spot they took the dragon balls to when they go to summon Porunga, and later on, Goku and Freeza could see Porunga nearby from where they were fighting. So unless the fight went all the way around the planet and conveniently back to where it started, I don't think they ever went too far.
He never specified if he's referring to when Goku went to fight Freeza, or when Goku first landed on Namek and went to save Gohan and Krillin from Recoome. Either way, there's no indication that he flew all the way across the planet.
Both times Goku lands is never far from the battle. Goku's ship to Freeza's could be the other side of the planet though which is why Goku couldn't reach it.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Bussani » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:14 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:He never specified if he's referring to when Goku went to fight Freeza, or when Goku first landed on Namek and went to save Gohan and Krillin from Recoome.
I did wonder that, but the thing about everyone being in the same pose and it happening between panels made the Freeza fight example seem to fit better, so that's what I went with. If he was talking about when he landed and went to fight the Ginyu Force, Jheece and Burta could see his ship land in the distance, so like you said, there's no indication there that he had to fly halfway across the planet either.
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:20 pm

...does anybody bother to read what I link? It comes from that big-ass blog I linked earlier. Shonen Jump, publisher of the manga, says he was on the other side of the planet. http://media.tested.com/uploads/1/10346 ... _super.jpg
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Rocketman » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:36 pm

China is colloquially considered "on the other side of the planet" from the US, but it's only 6000 miles, not the 12,000 that's half of Earth's circumference. We also don't know how large Namek was.

In any case, it's still not anywhere close to the speed of light.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Bussani » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:41 pm

Well, that explains where you got the idea, at least. Frankly, I don't see a blurb written by Viz as very convincing evidence. Hell, in Viz's own translation, Goku says "it's nearby" after he steps out of the ship and senses everyone's ki. I suppose nearby is relative, but...you can't really get any less nearby than "the other side of the planet".
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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:45 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:...does anybody bother to read what I link? It comes from that big-ass blog I linked earlier. Shonen Jump, publisher of the manga, says he was on the other side of the planet. http://media.tested.com/uploads/1/10346 ... _super.jpg

If Goku going to the Ginyu Force or Goku going to Frieza is half the planet then namek is small and everyone flying to Guru were moving incredible slow. Goku is still in visible distance in both cases.

Goku's ship to Frieza's ship could however be half the planet in distance.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:37 pm

Namek being smaller than Earth? Nope. A V-Jump article said it was about the same size, and the blog I linked calced it around that level too based on Krillin's and Vegeta's travels. Seriously, read the blog. Also, base Namek Goku (pre-zenkai) moves so fast that he's invisible to guys that can see the guys that are invisible to the guys that are invisible to normal humans. I''l copy-paste that section from the blog:
http://www.hhmi.org/bulletin/nov2011/pd ... entist.pdf

SCIENCE ARTICLE PROOF:
“How fast would an object have to move to be invisible to the naked eye?

Could Dash from “The Incredibles” really run so fast that we could not see him?

The short answer is yes, Dash could run fast enough to be invisible. Exactly how fast he would have to run depends on many factors. For an object to be visible, light particles (photons) must bounce off the object and into your eye. There must be enough light that specialized neurons in the eye—the rod and cone cells that form the photosensitive pixels of the retina—are activated to a level that triggers awareness. If Dash zipped through your field of view so quickly that too little light from him reached your retina, you would not see him. What is the minimum amount of light required? In a classic experiment, people in complete darkness were exposed to flashes of light. Only the rod photoreceptors were sensitive enough to detect the light intensities used in this experiment. At the minimum flash brightness required to trigger visual awareness, onlya handful of rods each absorbed just one photon. The implication is striking: single cells, capturing single particles of light, can trigger perception. However, at best, the rods can provide only a low-resolution image. To see and recognize Dash requires cone photoreceptors. Cones allow high-resolution color vision in brighter light. Unlike rods, individual cones must absorb many photons to generate a sizeable response.

And since each cone contributes a single pixel to the final image, many cones are required to “draw” Dash on the retina. If Dash were moving fast, photons bouncing off him would be scattered across many cones, and each of these cones might be insufficiently activated, so Dash would be invisible. If there were just a little more activation, he would appear as a blur. The less light there is, the more Dash can afford to take it easy. At noon when there is a surplus of photons, he has to be at his speediest to be invisible. Other factors are at play. One is eye movement. We never look steadily at a single point in space. We are not aware of it, but our eyes constantly dart from one location in the visual scene to another. They make small jumps that last about a fifth of a second. These jumps are called “saccades,” during which our visual system is suppressed. If Dash shot past during a saccade, you would not see him. If he ran past a crowd, chances are that at least some people would be in midsaccade and would miss him. The bottom line is, a complete answer to your question does not exist. How much light is required for a good cone signal, how activity across the array of cones is assembled into an image, how the visual system shuts down during a saccade, and other factors such as attention are active research areas. Answered by Michael Tri Do,_ an assistant professor at Children’s Hospital Boston,Harvard Medical School.”

In sum: photons move at light speed, it is photons bouncing of the object that allow us to see it, if the object were moving faster than light it would be moving faster than the photons can bounce off and therefore would be "invisble" to a human eye.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/94 ... _super.gif

ALL of the above confirm that GOKU CAN FIGHT AND DODGE AT MASSIVELY FASTER THAN LIGHT SPEEDS.

Now, do not misunderstand my point. My point is NOT that Z warriors ALWAYS fight at light speed and massively faster, far from it as there are many times at the World Tournament where the crowd is able to see parts of the battle. However, as the above physics article discusses moving at just under lightspeed is still able to be seen from all angles depending on distance, but to be truly invisible like some parts of the fights in Dragonball and onward means that the characters were fighting at at least Light Speed or Faster.

Thus, if you discount the proven Namek traverse speed analysis and the fighting speed anlysis in favor of one based on character depictions it only makes Goku even faster. This is because from Dragonball and onward the fighters are at least capable of fighting and dodging at light speed, but cannot necessarily always do it or cover a large distance at that speed based on how it is depicted in the story. BUT AGAIN we know Goku can cross Earth in one second as he did on Namek and that is his lowest proven speed feat so I am going to use that.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:51 pm

AT draws people at slower than light, AT>V-jump.

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Re: Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:03 pm

If li'l Goku was already "faster than light" back in earlier Dragon Ball (super-fast side-stepping Vs Kuririn in the 22nd WT), then why did it take Gohan and Kuririn several days to traverse Namek, even taking an hour at full speed to finish and reach the Grand Elder? Or why couldn't Super Saiyan Goku make it to his own ship within the less than a minute that Namek had left? Or why couldn't Piccolo and company near-instantly reach wherever Cell was sucking up humans to stop him?

DB physics =/= real-world physics. Toriyama writes poop jokes for a living, for crying out loud.

And it all ultimately matters for next to nothing in regards to the topic, anyway. Real physics or cartoon physics, Superman is still haxed beyond belief. Goku would lose either way.
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