Buu Saga Info

[BejitaSama]

You do know that Goku flat out stated Super Buu was way stronger than him, and he was stronger than Kid Buu, right? And that Piccolo sensed both Majin Vegeta and a suppressed SS3 Goku, and still thought that Gotenks would succeed where they failed (he also sensed Gotenks), even before he learned of SS3? And that Super Buu = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu and Kid Buu = Super Buu - Good Buu, logically giving Kid Buu the exact same power as Pure Evil Buu?

Logically, Pure Evil Buu and Kid Buu should be the same being, with them looking different because one split off of a Kaioshin-dominated Buu and the other split off a Buu where the Majin influence was in control. They're both called Pure Evil. They're both far stronger than Good Buu. They're both Super Buu without Good Buu.

That's incorrect. That's why your theory stay a theory.
First of all, Pure Evil Buu can't have the same power as Kid Buu because Evil Buu only takes a part of Fat Buu's power, and Kid Buu is stated to be a lot more powerful than Fat Buu because of the absorption of Kaioshin. You are reasoning like Buu's forms are an equation, but it's not so simple (as the rest of the Buu saga). We know that Pure Evil Buu power + Good Buu power = Fat Buu power.
The absorption of Good Buu by Pure Evil Buu created Super Buu, who is stated to have a more suitable body to fight, to be pure evil, and greater in all aspects. So we can deduce that Super Buu is a version of Fat Buu, but with the evil side dominating (which implies what I said the line above). This form is possible because of the Fat Buu cocoon that Bejita will snatch. And without Good Buu, we recover Kid Buu. Why ? we don't have the answer, but for sure Kid Buu is totally different of Pure Evil Buu.

Fat Buu = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu powers
Kid Buu > Fat Buu
Super Buu > Fat Buu

If Kid Buu has to be compared to another Buu's form in term of power, it would be Super Buu.
And to conclude, i will add that if you really think that Gotenks SSJ1 is more powerful than Goku, and that you take into account the SSJ's multipliers gave 15 years after the end of the manga, it means that Gotenks SSJ3 is 400 x more powerful than Gotenks SSJ 3 And so, that Super Buu also around 400+ x more powerful than Fat Buu

I'm sorry, but it seems...ridiculous

[Amuro Ray]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Here Goku blatantly admits to Piccolo that this is a gamble - he's not certain these guys will absolutely win.

You also seem to be missing the fact that Goku also says that after seeing their power he is sure they can do it.

Actually, Goku doesn't think the boys are that strong at all -

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”[/qoute]

Nothing remarkable about them

[Amuro Ray]

You do know that Goku flat out stated Super Buu was way stronger than him, and he was stronger than Kid Buu, right? And that Piccolo sensed both Majin Vegeta and a suppressed SS3 Goku, and still thought that Gotenks would succeed where they failed (he also sensed Gotenks), even before he learned of SS3? And that Super Buu = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu and Kid Buu = Super Buu - Good Buu, logically giving Kid Buu the exact same power as Pure Evil Buu?

Logically, Pure Evil Buu and Kid Buu should be the same being, with them looking different because one split off of a Kaioshin-dominated Buu and the other split off a Buu where the Majin influence was in control. They're both called Pure Evil. They're both far stronger than Good Buu. They're both Super Buu without Good Buu.

That's incorrect. That's why your theory stay a theory.
First of all, Pure Evil Buu can't have the same power as Kid Buu because Evil Buu only takes a part of Fat Buu's power, and Kid Buu is stated to be a lot more powerful than Fat Buu because of the absorption of Kaioshin. You are reasoning like Buu's forms are an equation, but it's not so simple (as the rest of the Buu saga). We know that Pure Evil Buu power + Good Buu power = Fat Buu power.
The absorption of Good Buu by Pure Evil Buu created Super Buu, who is stated to have a more suitable body to fight, to be pure evil, and greater in all aspects. So we can deduce that Super Buu is a version of Fat Buu, but with the evil side dominating (which implies what I said the line above). This form is possible because of the Fat Buu cocoon that Bejita will snatch. And without Good Buu, we recover Kid Buu. Why ? we don't have the answer, but for sure Kid Buu is totally different of Pure Evil Buu.

Fat Buu = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu powers
Kid Buu > Fat Buu
Super Buu > Fat Buu

If Kid Buu has to be compared to another Buu's form in term of power, it would be Super Buu.
And to conclude, i will add that if you really think that Gotenks SSJ1 is more powerful than Goku, and that you take into account the SSJ's multipliers gave 15 years after the end of the manga, it means that Gotenks SSJ3 is 400 x more powerful than Gotenks SSJ 3 And so, that Super Buu also around 400+ x more powerful than Fat Buu

I'm sorry, but it seems...ridiculous

of course it is - no one else felt Buu become 400X more poweful except for Piccolo and Goku? EVERYONE noticed when Goku became SSJ3, even if they weren't paying attention.

[Kamiccolo9]

If Kid Buu has to be compared to another Buu's form in term of power, it would be Super Buu.
And to conclude, i will add that if you really think that Gotenks SSJ1 is more powerful than Goku, and that you take into account the SSJ's multipliers gave 15 years after the end of the manga, it means that Gotenks SSJ3 is 400 x more powerful than Gotenks SSJ 3 And so, that Super Buu also around 400+ x more powerful than Fat Buu

I'm sorry, but it seems...ridiculous

You're math is a little off. SSJ3 is 400x base, and 8x SSJ1. If SSJ Gotenks(Post) is roughly even with Fat Buu, then that would make Super Buu around 8x stronger than Fat Buu.

I don't know how people are still arguing this - we have the Daizenshuu stating that Post ROSAT Gotenks finally surpassed Vegeta and the others (this doesn't include Goku, we know him to be stronger than Vegeta) They can only be talking about power here, and not levels of SSJ - Gohan is the only other SSJ besides Vegeta and Goku, and I don't think using the words "surpassed" would be correct in describing Gohan and Gotenks this situation. Honestly, you're just reading it selectively because you don't agree with this fact.

Again, what BejitaSama stated is correct, there are many instances where we see an opportunity for people to comment on Gotenks (and Gohan's) power, especially in comparison to Goku - it's never mentioned and depending on how it's read, implied that they surpassed him. Even on the Kai's planet, when everyone first saw SSJ3 Gotenks, Goku doesn't compare their power to his own, instead he is just surprised at how they were able to obtain SSJ3 in a short period

Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”
Note: So it seems that Goku never planned on Gotenks reaching Super Saiyan 3, but still thought he’d be able to defeat Boo (or at least that it was worth a shot).

In the Anime, Goku is asked if they are stronger than him, he dodges the questions and replies that they have a achieved much at their young age.

Fine. It doesn't matter either way. Goku and Vegeta are equal, aside from Goku's SSJ3. If base Gotenks is stronger than base Vegeta, then he is also stronger than base Goku. So, SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than SSJ Goku and Vegeta, and so on.
And who cares what the anime says? The anime says that Pure Buu is stronger than Buuhan.

[Amuro Ray]

Fine. It doesn't matter either way. Goku and Vegeta are equal, aside from Goku's SSJ3. If base Gotenks is stronger than base Vegeta, then he is also stronger than base Goku. So, SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than SSJ Goku and Vegeta, and so on.
And who cares what the anime says? The anime says that Pure Buu is stronger than Buuhan.

It does not - I posted the video 2 pages back. It does say he's stronger than "Superbuu" though, which I agree with. He's more evil, and doesn't have the Dai-Kai's influence to weaken him.

[BejitaSama]

Good point Armuro !
I sustain it too, Goku never compared his true power (vs Kid Buu and not vs Fat Buu) to Gotenks one. He's very surprised, impressed, but never mentionned that they effectivly surpassed him. Goku was gambling on Gotenks, and didn't want to kill Buu himself. He wanted to gave the responsibility of earth to the boys. These statments as "Gotenks might win" are not a proof at all; Goku never saw him, and it just shows that he was wrong : even in SSJ3 the fusion failed.

Fine. It doesn't matter either way. Goku and Vegeta are equal, aside from Goku's SSJ3. If base Gotenks is stronger than base Vegeta, then he is also stronger than base Goku. So, SSJ Gotenks would be stronger than SSJ Goku and Vegeta, and so on.
And who cares what the anime says? The anime says that Pure Buu is stronger than Buuhan.

Except if they were refering to Gotenks SSJ3, who is for sure a lot of stronger than Bejita. Because the only indcator that we have is "after the ROSAT training", which implies the discovery of the SSJ3 by Gotenks.

[RandomGuy96]

That's incorrect. That's why your theory stay a theory.
First of all, Pure Evil Buu can't have the same power as Kid Buu because Evil Buu only takes a part of Fat Buu's power, and Kid Buu is stated to be a lot more powerful than Fat Buu because of the absorption of Kaioshin.

Fat Buu himself isn't... he has hidden power way beyond that of Kid Buu. It just only comes out when the negative side of him is dominant... that's why he gets anger boosts, and why Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu at all. That hidden power being the power Super Buu uses.

You are reasoning like Buu's forms are an equation, but it's not so simple (as the rest of the Buu saga). We know that Pure Evil Buu power + Good Buu power = Fat Buu power.

We also know that, with the good in him dominant, he can't use most of his power. We know that Super Buu (evil dominate) = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu. And we know that Kid Buu is pure evil and he is Super Buu - Good Buu. Both Gray Buu and Kid Buu were pure evil and both were just Super Buu without Good Buu.

The absorption of Good Buu by Pure Evil Buu created Super Buu, who is stated to have a more suitable body to fight, to be pure evil, and greater in all aspects. So we can deduce that Super Buu is a version of Fat Buu, but with the evil side dominating (which implies what I said the line above). This form is possible because of the Fat Buu cocoon that Bejita will snatch. And without Good Buu, we recover Kid Buu. Why ? we don't have the answer, but for sure Kid Buu is totally different of Pure Evil Buu.

No, he's not. They're both the exact same being; the result of separating the fused Buu. They both are made of the exact same components and are both pure evil with nothing holding them back- they have the exact same power. If anything, Evil Buu should be stronger.

Fat Buu = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu powers
Kid Buu > Fat Buu
Super Buu > Fat Buu

You missed Super Buu >>>> Kid Buu (stated by Goku) and Pure Evil Buu >= Kid Buu.

Fat Buu = Good Dominated. Evil Buu + Good Buu.
Super Buu = Evil Dominated. Evil Buu + Good Buu.
Kid Buu = Super Buu - Good Buu. The only thing left for him to be is Evil Buu.

And to conclude, i will add that if you really think that Gotenks SSJ1 is more powerful than Goku, and that you take into account the SSJ's multipliers gave 15 years after the end of the manga, it means that Gotenks SSJ3 is 400 x more powerful than Gotenks SSJ 3 And so, that Super Buu also around 400+ x more powerful than Fat Buu

No, that means Gotenks SS3 is eight times stronger than Gotenks SS.

It does not - I posted the video 2 pages back. It does say he's stronger than "Superbuu" though, which I agree with. He's more evil, and doesn't have the Dai-Kai's influence to weaken him.

Kaboom, could you post the instance where Goku said that Kid Buu was on a completely different level than every other Buu? Also, the anime pretty much has Gohan stronger than Goku too- compare filler Goku vs Buutenks to filler Gohan vs Buutenks. It still has him way more powerful than the manga does, though.

I also love how people keep ignoring Goku saying that Super Buu would effortlessly demolish him and Piccolo sensing both Gotenks and Majin Vegeta and concluding that Gotenks would succeed where Vegeta failed (despite not knowing about SS3). The former is especially notable; Buu's ki is stated to be like a lie. People constantly underestimate it. So he couldn't have just sensed Buu's power himself... the only way he has of determining Buu's strength is his performance. Apparently "being moderately weaker than Gotenks" = "strong enough enough to one shot Goku", according to Goku.

[Hitiro]

Actually, Goku doesn't think the boys are that strong at all -

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

Nothing remarkable about them

Their power for the fusion he means. After seeing their power he was confident that the fusion of their two powers, even if they weren't as impressive as the other Saiyans, would be enough to kill Boo. Just because Goku wasn't impressed by their powers doesn't mean a fusion between the two of them wouldn't be impressive. Goku already stated that the Metamoran's were incredibly weak yet when they used fusion they became an incredibly powerful warrior.

That's incorrect. That's why your theory stay a theory.
First of all, Pure Evil Buu can't have the same power as Kid Buu because Evil Buu only takes a part of Fat Buu's power, and Kid Buu is stated to be a lot more powerful than Fat Buu because of the absorption of Kaioshin. You are reasoning like Buu's forms are an equation, but it's not so simple (as the rest of the Buu saga). We know that Pure Evil Buu power + Good Buu power = Fat Buu power.
The absorption of Good Buu by Pure Evil Buu created Super Buu, who is stated to have a more suitable body to fight, to be pure evil, and greater in all aspects. So we can deduce that Super Buu is a version of Fat Buu, but with the evil side dominating (which implies what I said the line above). This form is possible because of the Fat Buu cocoon that Bejita will snatch. And without Good Buu, we recover Kid Buu. Why ? we don't have the answer, but for sure Kid Buu is totally different of Pure Evil Buu.

Your deduction that Evil Boo(Super Boo) is a version of Fat Boo may not be true though. You are forgetting that there is also the South Kaioshin's power lingering somewhere inside Majin Boo. For all we know Evil Boo has access to the South Kaioshin's power because now the Dai Kaioshin's influence is much weaker. So we have:

Fat Boo = Pure Boo(Kid Boo)'s power(Heavily Suppressed due to Dai Kaioshins influence)
Evil Boo = Pure Boo's power(Suppressed) + South Kaioshin's power(Unsealed)
Pure Boo = Pure Boo's power.

If Kid Buu has to be compared to another Buu's form in term of power, it would be Super Buu.
And to conclude, i will add that if you really think that Gotenks SSJ1 is more powerful than Goku, and that you take into account the SSJ's multipliers gave 15 years after the end of the manga, it means that Gotenks SSJ3 is 400 x more powerful than Gotenks SSJ 3 And so, that Super Buu also around 400+ x more powerful than Fat Buu

I'm sorry, but it seems...ridiculous

Your maths is wrong. If we are assuming SSJ Gotenks is more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and you take into consideration the SSJ multipliers then SSJ3 Gotenks would only be 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. As you are comparing the multiplier from SSJ, not base. The multipliers appear as so:

SSJ: 50x base
SSJ2: 100x base or 2x SSJ
SSJ3: 400x base or 4x SSJ2 or 8x SSJ

So Evil Boo(Super Boo) would be 8+ x more powerful than Fat Boo.

[RandomGuy96]

Fat Boo = Pure Boo(Kid Boo)'s power(Heavily Suppressed due to Dai Kaioshins influence)
Evil Boo = Pure Boo's power(Suppressed) + South Kaioshin's power(Unsealed)
Pure Boo = Pure Boo's power.

Nah, the Buff Buu scene makes it more like:

Fat Buu = Heavily Suppressed Kid Buu power + Sealed SK power.
Super Buu = Unsuppressed Kid Buu power + Slightly Suppressed SK power
Buff Buu = Unsuppressed Kid Buu power + Unsuppressed SK power.
Pure Evil Buu = Unsuppressed Kid Buu power (+minor evil SK power?)

It's also kind of implied that Good Buu = Unsuppressed Dai Kaioshin power + Sealed SK Power, since he doesn't have any Pure Buu power, Dai Kaioshin is dominant, and he's not kicking the crap out of Kid Buu like he should've done if he was even half as strong as Super Buu.

[BejitaSama]

Fat Buu himself isn't... he has hidden power way beyond that of Kid Buu. It just only comes out when the negative side of him is dominant... that's why he gets anger boosts, and why Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu at all. That hidden power being the power Super Buu uses

Please, tell me where it says that Fat Buu has hidden power beyond Kid Buu, I can't wait !
Never stated. So, it's a total theory.

We also know that, with the good in him dominant, he can't use most of his power. We know that Super Buu (evil dominate) = Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu. And we know that Kid Buu is pure evil and he is Super Buu - Good Buu. Both Gray Buu and Kid Buu were pure evil and both were just Super Buu without Good Buu.

That's right, Fat Buu can't use all of his power. Because Kaioshin suppressed him. Again, you can't compare Pure Evil Buu and Kid Buu because they're not created by the same person ! Pure Evil Buu is created by Fat Buu and is inferior to him, and Kid Buu created Fat Buu, who is inferior to him.
Pure Evil Buu is the part of evil of Fat Buu, whereas Kid Buu is the 100% evil that gave birth to Fat Buu, a suppressed version of himself.

You missed Super Buu >>>> Kid Buu (stated by Goku) and Pure Evil Buu >= Kid Buu.

For the last time, NO !!

Goku stated at the moment where he wanted to fuse that he can't beat Super Buu.
He never compared Super Buu to Kid Buu, because Kid Buu wasn't exist yet. And yet, when Kid Buu appeared, miracle, we learn that Goku was more powerful than we thought ! It changes all what he said earlier. Besides, face to Super Buu, Goku only goes to SSJ1. In front of Kid Buu and Buu Gotenks, he goes SSJ3. For me, it's another proof that Goku speaks without taking in account its SSJ3 ; moreover he wanted to fuse, maybe didn't want to take the risk of using the SSJ3 : he makes another gamble, this time to convince Bejita to fuse, which will be the safer and speeder solution to kill Buu.

And I stop you right now with your theory with South Kaioshin, it's a pure fan theory. In the manga, there is NONE mention of that.
With the manga we have :

Fat Buu : Kid Buu + Kaioshins (at less Dai Kaioshin suppressed him).
Pure Evil Buu : around 60 % of Fat Buu's power
Super Buu : Pure Evil Buu dominant + Good Buu (in a cocoon, with a special treatment. IE : to have the benefit of Fat Buu's power)
Kid Buu : Super Buu - Good Buu (the part of Kaioshin, oh my god ? the part that supppressed Kid Buu )

If you're logical, it just means that Super Buu, when he absorbed Good Buu, recover all the power of Fat Buu, but with the evil dominance, he can use a part of his hidden power, not the total because of the presence of Good Buu. Without Good Buu, it creates Kid Buu, because now the influence of the kaishin disappear and he has all the power of Fat Buu ! It's logical, and the only solution that we can have if we're basing only on the informations of the manga.

[RandomGuy96]

Please, tell me where it says that Fat Buu has hidden power beyond Kid Buu, I can't wait !
Never stated. So, it's a total theory.

His hidden power is Super Buu's power, who's explicitly stated to be way stronger than Kid Buu. Fat Buu and Super Buu are the same components, but Super Buu is evil, so he can actually use his hidden power, which Buu could otherwise only draw out in anger bursts.

That's right, Fat Buu can't use all of his power. Because Kaioshin suppressed him. Again, you can't compare Pure Evil Buu and Kid Buu because they're not created by the same person ! Pure Evil Buu is created by Fat Buu and is inferior to him, and Kid Buu created Fat Buu, who is inferior to him.

Super Buu > Fat Buu is stated. What's the difference between them? They're the same components, but in one the evil is dominant. Good Buu and Pure Evil Buu were a division of Fat Buu's hidden power- that's why the result was Super Buu. When they take out Good Buu again, he reverts to a pure evil Buu, again. The only difference is now he looks different.

For the last time, NO !!

Goku stated at the moment where he wanted to fuse that he can't beat Super Buu.

He never compared Super Buu to Kid Buu, because Kid Buu wasn't exist yet. And yet, when Kid Buu appeared, miracle, we learn that Goku was more powerful than we thought ! It changes all what he said earlier. Besides, face to Super Buu, Goku only goes to SSJ1. In front of Kid Buu and Buu Gotenks, he goes SSJ3. For me, it's another proof that Goku speaks without taking in account its SSJ3 ; moreover he wanted to fuse, maybe didn't want to take the risk of using the SSJ3 : he makes another gamble, this time to convince Bejita to fuse, which will be the safer and speeder solution to kill Buu.

And I stop you right now with your theory with South Kaioshin, it's a pure fan theory. In the manga, there is NONE mention of that.

Ah, so you're going to assume he was lying in a life or death situation for no reason purely to wank him, and that he thought he could beat Kid buu but not Super Buu without fusion for no reason. Great.

What theory?

[BejitaSama]

Mdr, you didn't understand what i wrote I think, because all what you're saying in Buu's transformations is false !
Pure Evil Buu and kid Buu are not the same, please read again !

[Amuro Ray]

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

[Amuro Ray]

Honestly, out of universe what probably happened
AT thought that Gohan wasn't fit to be lead and wrote the story around powering up Goku enough to beat BUU..seriously, I don't know how else to explain the sloppy writing.

[SaiyanZ]

Nice read, I somewhat agree; though I think SSJ3 Goku & Kid Buu > SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu. Against Gohan, not so sure, though I would put Kid Buu above him as well, because of how Goku wanted both Gohan and Gotenks to fight him. One thing I had a problem with was #15, because I think that it isn't really a counter-argument, its more like a different way to look at it. Glad the person put a lot of thought into it though. At the end of the day, I think SSJ3 has various levels of power because of its limitations, and thats what causes all this controversy because the statement can be taken in so many different ways. IE, "troublesome" can/can't mean "strongest" in relation to Kid Buu. But thank you again, very nice compilation of info

[Kamiccolo9]

Honestly, out of universe what probably happened
AT thought that Gohan wasn't fit to be lead and wrote the story around powering up Goku enough to beat BUU..seriously, I don't know how else to explain the sloppy writing.

From Herm's endings guide:

Toriyama intended Gohan to be the hero of the Boo arc
As I mentioned, chapter 421 starts off with a message from Kame-sennin: “‘DragonBall’ will continue for just a tad longer! From now on, taking the place of the late Goku as the main character will be his serious-minded son, Son Gohan!”

So at the very start of the Boo arc, Toriyama (via Kame-sennin) wanted everyone to know that Gohan would “take Goku’s place”. But of course, at the end of the Boo arc Goku is the one to defeat Boo and save the day, while Gohan just gets beat up and finally absorbed by Boo. You’d hardly call that taking Goku’s place as main character. So it certainly seems that Toriyama’s original plan for Gohan’s role in that story arc didn't pan out. Why not though? Well, this is all that Toriyama has said on the subject, from his Daizenshuu 2 interview:
Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?

Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.

And that’s it. The official word then is that Toriyama himself ultimately changed his mind about Gohan’s suitability as the main character.

Fan rumor though, has usually claimed that Toriyama was forced to give Gohan the shaft due to fan outcry and/or his ever insidious editor. And once again there’s not any real evidence of this. As mentioned before, Toriyama actually considered his editor during the Boo arc, Fuyuto Takeda, to be rather lenient compared to his previous editors. It doesn’t seem likely that Toriyama would describe Takeda like that if Takeda had imposed such as major change. As for the idea of a fan outcry, I’ve never seen any evidence to back up the claims that there was such an uproar over Gohan taking the lead role. It just seems to be speculation.

As speculation goes at least, how plausible is the idea that fans at the time simply couldn’t accept Gohan as the lead character rather than Goku? Well, it’s mixed. Daizenshuu 1 gives the results of two popularity polls taken during the course of the series, each one ranking the five most popular characters at the time. The first one appeared in Weekly Jump #12 for 1993, towards the end of the Cell Games (the issue features chapter 411, where Cell self-destructs). It lists Gohan in first place, followed by Goku, Trunks, Vegeta, and Piccolo. The second one appeared in Weekly Jump #5/6 for 1995, near the end of the Boo arc (this issue has chapter 501, the color chapter where Goku comes to the rescue while Gotenks-absorbed Boo continues to beat up on Gohan), and lists Goku in first place, followed by Vegeta, Trunks, Gotenks, and Piccolo.

So it seems that fans at the time didn’t necessarily have an inherent preference for Goku over Gohan. Gohan actually managed to surpass Goku in popularity during the Cell Games, after all. So going into the Boo arc he was the most popular character, but by the time of his fight with Gotenks-absorbed Boo he had dropped out of the top five entirely. So what happened? Well, there’s a lot of factors that could have caused Gohan to drop in popularity. For one thing, while during the Cell Games he was portrayed as an all-powerful badass, in the Boo arc he’s quickly established to have slacked off and gotten much weaker, and his main accomplishments before the Elder Kaioshin’s power-up was to have his energy stolen, put up sort of a decent fight against Dabra, then be beaten up by Boo. But the chicken-and-egg question is whether Gohan lost his popularity because he didn’t do anything cool in the Boo arc or if he didn’t get to do anything cool in the Boo arc because he lost his popularity. While it’s not indicated when they started taking votes for these polls, or when they stopped, these results were published in Jump a full five weeks after chapter 497, where Gohan beats the tar out of Boo. But it seems that even that didn’t help raise Gohan into the top five.

So Gohan was unpopular with fans while the Boo arc was running, but it seems the same fans were capable of preferring Gohan to Goku under the right circumstances. All in all, the idea that Gohan was replaced as main character due to unpopularity is at least supported by these popularity polls, but it still goes against Toriyama’s own explanation that he ultimately felt Gohan was “not suited for the part” compared to Goku. Of course, Toriyama doesn’t really explain exactly what he felt made Gohan unsuited, and being unpopular would certainly be a liability for a main character. So maybe Toriyama did just mean that Goku was the much more popular character than Gohan at the time, making it seem prudent to put Goku back in the limelight once more.

But then this is still just speculation and should be treated as such, while the rumors about fan demand causing Toriyama to shaft Gohan are all too often treated as proven fact. Also, the rumors typically cast Toriyama as being forced against his will to make the change, either by a rabid fan response, his editor, or both. But when talking about this change in Daizenshuu 2, Toriyama betrays no particular strong feelings. Gohan was “unsuited for the part”, so he swapped him out for Goku. Simple as that. Even if you argued that by “unsuited” Toriyama meant “unpopular”, at most this would just suggest that Toriyama prudently saw where the wind was blowing popularity-wise and made the switch on his own. And of course by “unsuited” Toriyama doesn’t have to mean “unpopular”. Maybe Toriyama thought Gohan was a bit of a week reed, or somewhat bland, or harder to draw than Goku, or any number of things. “Gohan was replaced because he was unpopular” seems to be such a widespread explanation largely because it’s the one most pleasing to Gohan fans, since it allows them to pin all the blame on the Japanese fans of years ago. “If only they hadn’t been such narrow-minded Goku fanboys”, the thinking goes “then Gohan could have been the hero like Toriyama wanted all along”. Well, it’s possible, but it ain’t necessarily so.

It's a pretty interesting read, and is definitely a plausible out of universe reason for the end of the Buu Arc. However, it could just as easily be argued that instead of Goku being made stronger to match Buu, that Buu could have been made weaker to match Goku. Seeing as Goku power doesn't change at all throughout the arc, I tend to support the latter.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Sigh... It's very simple people. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and therefore Ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku. It's simply math people
Ssj: 50x base
Ssj2: 2x Ssj
Ssj3: 4x Ssj2
Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Ssj2 Goku x 4 = Ssj3 Goku
Ssj Gotenks x2 x4(x8) = Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj3 Gotenks >> Ssj3 Goku.
If you argue this you are arguing with official material and therefore shouldn't argue in the first place. Official statements, that Toriyama has no problem with, outweigh any statement made by character. Sadly the statement that supports Kid Buu >Super Buu is filler and is contradicted by previous more believable statements.

[Hitiro]

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

This is a wrong assumption. If Fat Boo is Z and Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is X and Dai Kaioshin is Y then we have:

Z=X-Y

If Evil Boo is W and South Kaioshin is S then:

W= X+(S-Y)

And if Buff Boo is U then:

U = X+S

[Amuro Ray]

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

This is a wrong assumption. If Fat Boo is Z and Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is X and Dai Kaioshin is Y then we have:

Z=X-Y

If Evil Boo is W and South Kaioshin is S then:

W= X+(S-Y)

And if Buff Boo is U then:

U = X+S

You're wrong, period.

Not only does the manga not say it, NOTHING says that anywhere, it's just a baseless opinion you conjured.

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Majority of who's power? The majority of Fatboo's power went to Evilbuu, there is no other way to interpret this. Kidbuu is flat out shown to be stronger than Fatbuu by a considerable margin, especially because we are show the more evil Buu is, the stronger.

[Amuro Ray]

Sigh... It's very simple people. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and therefore Ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku. It's simply math people
Ssj: 50x base
Ssj2: 2x Ssj
Ssj3: 4x Ssj2
Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Ssj2 Goku x 4 = Ssj3 Goku
Ssj Gotenks x2 x4(x8) = Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj3 Gotenks >> Ssj3 Goku.
If you argue this you are arguing with official material and therefore shouldn't argue in the first place. Official statements, that Toriyama has no problem with, outweigh any statement made by character. Sadly the statement that supports Kid Buu >Super Buu is filler and is contradicted by previous more believable statements.

And I just posted that the official word is that Gotenk's isn't said to surpass Vegeta (Again, Goku is not mentioned, he is obviously stronger than Vegeta) until AFTER his ROSAT training. Meaning he can still be stronger than Vegeta, but weaker than Goku and Gohan.

There isn't any more for you to argue on this subject.