Buu Saga Info

[RandomGuy96]

Mdr, you didn't understand what i wrote I think, because all what you're saying in Buu's transformations is false !
Pure Evil Buu and kid Buu are not the same, please read again !

I understood perfectly what you wrote. I just thought it was wrong. Also, I'd like to address this again:

Besides, face to Super Buu, Goku only goes to SSJ1. In front of Kid Buu and Buu Gotenks, he goes SSJ3. For me, it's another proof that Goku speaks without taking in account its SSJ3 ; moreover he wanted to fuse, maybe didn't want to take the risk of using the SSJ3 : he makes another gamble, this time to convince Bejita to fuse, which will be the safer and speeder solution to kill Buu.

This is just dumb. There is no risk in using SS3, at least he doesn't think there is. If he thought there was a risk, he wouldn't have stated that he could easily have killed Fat Buu. But he didn't. If he could go to SS3 and just demolish Buu, he would've done so. He fully thinks that he can take Kid Buu just using his SS3 when he stated in no uncertain terms that Super Buu would massacre him. There is just no reason to think that he's only talking about 1/4 of his powe, except to wank Goku. Nowhere is it even implied that Goku is a match for any of the top dogs in this saga (Gohan, Super Buu, and Gotenks). I'll add "Goku was only talking about 1/4 of his power whenever he made a statement for no reason" to my list of crazy things people say to wank Kid Buu and Goku.

Majority of who's power? The majority of Fatboo's power went to Evilbuu, there is no other way to interpret this. Kidbuu is flat out shown to be stronger than Fatbuu by a considerable margin, especially because we are show the more evil Buu is, the stronger.

If that's true, then Pure Evil Buu > Kid Buu. And Pure Evil Buu >>>> Super Buu. But that's not true. And Kid Buu doesn't have any feats that put him above a serious Fat Buu. Care to give me a statement saying that Kid Buu is stronger?

That just refers to the power in Majin Buu at that moment. We know there was a heck of a lot of power Fat Buu couldn't use... that's why Super Buu was so much stronger than Fat Buu in the first place. That's what Super Buu was: Fat Buu with the evil side dominant and all of his strength unlocked. Pure Evil Buu was simply Kid Buu in a different form; they were both the pure evil of Buu and both the result of removing Good Buu.

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

Where is that stated? Also, you're not factoring in Buu's hidden power into this, Super Buu's, the power that he could only get when his worst qualities were dominant, and the power that Goku said would squash him like a bug. The facts are Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu = Super Buu, and Super Buu - Good Buu = Kid Buu. Logically, Kid Buu and Pure Evil Buu are the same being. And why wouldn't they be? They're both Super Buu when they contain Good Buu. They both are stronger than Good Buu. They are both pure evil.

[Undertaker]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Here Goku blatantly admits to Piccolo that this is a gamble - he's not certain these guys will absolutely win.

Do you know how to read? He clearly says it's a gamble because he could of beaten Boo but chose not to but since the kids can do it so he gave it to them despite the facts they never fought. Goku told Picoolo 30 minutes would be enough. You are repeating what I addressed in this thread. You clearly are in denial.

[Amuro Ray]

Mdr, you didn't understand what i wrote I think, because all what you're saying in Buu's transformations is false !
Pure Evil Buu and kid Buu are not the same, please read again !

I understood perfectly what you wrote. I just thought it was wrong. Also, I'd like to address this again:

Besides, face to Super Buu, Goku only goes to SSJ1. In front of Kid Buu and Buu Gotenks, he goes SSJ3. For me, it's another proof that Goku speaks without taking in account its SSJ3 ; moreover he wanted to fuse, maybe didn't want to take the risk of using the SSJ3 : he makes another gamble, this time to convince Bejita to fuse, which will be the safer and speeder solution to kill Buu.

This is just dumb. There is no risk in using SS3, at least he doesn't think there is. If he thought there was a risk, he wouldn't have stated that he could easily have killed Fat Buu. But he didn't. If he could go to SS3 and just demolish Buu, he would've done so. He fully thinks that he can take Kid Buu just using his SS3 when he stated in no uncertain terms that Super Buu would massacre him. There is just no reason to think that he's only talking about 1/4 of his powe, except to wank Goku. Nowhere is it even implied that Goku is a match for any of the top dogs in this saga (Gohan, Super Buu, and Gotenks). I'll add "Goku was only talking about 1/4 of his power whenever he made a statement for no reason" to my list of crazy things people say to wank Kid Buu and Goku.

Majority of who's power? The majority of Fatboo's power went to Evilbuu, there is no other way to interpret this. Kidbuu is flat out shown to be stronger than Fatbuu by a considerable margin, especially because we are show the more evil Buu is, the stronger.

If that's true, then Pure Evil Buu > Kid Buu. And Pure Evil Buu >>>> Super Buu. But that's not true. And Kid Buu doesn't have any feats that put him above a serious Fat Buu. Care to give me a statement saying that Kid Buu is stronger?

That just refers to the power in Majin Buu at that moment. We know there was a heck of a lot of power Fat Buu couldn't use... that's why Super Buu was so much stronger than Fat Buu in the first place. That's what Super Buu was: Fat Buu with the evil side dominant and all of his strength unlocked. Pure Evil Buu was simply Kid Buu in a different form; they were both the pure evil of Buu and both the result of removing Good Buu.

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

Where is that stated? Also, you're not factoring in Buu's hidden power into this, Super Buu's, the power that he could only get when his worst qualities were dominant, and the power that Goku said would squash him like a bug. The facts are Pure Evil Buu + Good Buu = Super Buu, and Super Buu - Good Buu = Kid Buu. Logically, Kid Buu and Pure Evil Buu are the same being. And why wouldn't they be? They're both Super Buu when they contain Good Buu. They both are stronger than Good Buu. They are both pure evil.

It's clearly stated in the quote - Good Buu and Evil buu are the sum of Fatbuu.
As for my support

1.Supreme Kai and Goku both commenting on Buu's increased strength.
2.Goku telling Vegeta he has to transform into SSJ3 to stand a chance (If Kidbuu is weaker than Fatbuu, this wouldn't make sense, because)
3.Goku tells Vegeta he could have beaten Fatbuu
4.Veteta doing worse against Kidbuu than he did with Fatbuu.
5. Apparently Kidbuu kept Fatbuu inside him (until he spit him out of course) wouldn't that mean he had access to whatever power he supposedly had?


And yes, there apparently a lot of risk in SSJ3 - Goku does tell Vegeta that it's for "emergency use only."

[Amuro Ray]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Here Goku blatantly admits to Piccolo that this is a gamble - he's not certain these guys will absolutely win.

Do you know how to read? He clearly says it's a gamble because he could of beaten Boo but chose not to but since the kids can do it so he gave it to them despite the facts they never fought. Goku told Picoolo 30 minutes would be enough. You are repeating what I addressed in this thread. You clearly are in denial.

I love how you insult my reading skills and then counter with a statement that isn't seen until 15-20 chapters later. It's a gamble because Goku doesn't know if it will work, there is nothing else to it.

[Hitiro]

Pure evil buu and Kidbuu aren't the same at all.

If FatBuu is (Z), Goodbuu could represent (X) and EvilBuu (Y) So we have (X+Y=Z)

KIdbuu (A) is stated to be stronger than Fatbuu(Z) Which means by default (A) is greater than (Z) and therefore greater than (Y)

This is a wrong assumption. If Fat Boo is Z and Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is X and Dai Kaioshin is Y then we have:

Z=X-Y

If Evil Boo is W and South Kaioshin is S then:

W= X+(S-Y)

And if Buff Boo is U then:

U = X+S

You're wrong, period.

Not only does the manga not say it, NOTHING says that anywhere, it's just a baseless opinion you conjured.

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Majority of who's power? The majority of Fatboo's power went to Evilbuu, there is no other way to interpret this. Kidbuu is flat out shown to be stronger than Fatbuu by a considerable margin, especially because we are show the more evil Buu is, the stronger.

I'm sorry, but you are mixing up your terminology here. Pure Evil Boo is the grey Boo, not Evil Boo. Nobody is arguing Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is stronger than Fat Boo. What we know though is the Dai Kaioshin's influence was what was capping Pure Boo's power within Fat Boo. But when Pure Evil Boo comes into the equation and absorbs the Good Boo he gains some of the South Kaioshin's power and more of Pure Boo's power due to the Dai Kaioshin's influence being that much weaker.

Seeing as you can't see from normal x,y, z formula's I'll state what I said with actual names to make it more clear and I'll list them in order of weakest to strongest.

Good Boo = Dai Kaioshins power(Comes into play with the expulsion of Pure Boo's power maintains seal on South Kaioshin power)
Fat Boo = Pure Boo - Dai Kaioshin Influence(As he gets angry the less influence Dai Kaioshin has so he can use more of Pure Boo's power)
Pure Evil Boo(Gray Boo) = Pure Boo(Majority)
Pure Boo = original power
Evil Boo = Pure Boo + South Kaioshin(suppressed and unsealed due to weaker Dai Kaioshin influence)
Buff Boo = Pure Boo + South Kaioshin

[TheMightyOzaru]

You could also interpret the gamble on the boys inexperience when it comes to battle. I would be skeptical of putting 2 kids in charge of a situation no matter how powerful they are. Goku's decision to make Gohan his secret weapon at the Cell games got him killed =/.

[Undertaker]

It's never stated that Gotenks SSJ > Fat Buu, please. It's just your interpretation, and if you can't see that, i'm really sorry. The only facts that we are sure are :

Kid Buu >(>) Fat Buu
Super Buu >= Fat Buu
Gohan >> Super Buu
Gotenks SSJ3 >= Super Buu
Gotenks SSJ1 << Super Buu
Goku SSJ3 >= Kid Buu
Goku SSJ3 >(>) Fat Buu

Don't try to transform interpretations in facts.

Super Buu >>>>>> Fat Buu is stated by Piccolo

No, Piccolo did state that Superbuu was stronger, but it wasn't implied to be by a substantial amount - no one else on the lookout could really sense the change.

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Why would he ask it if the change was not much?

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”

Goku is shocked at how strong Buu is. Super Buu was also sensed from the Kaioshin Realm while Fat Buu was not. That implies a huge gap.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

Piccolo's fear and statement implies Super Buu is far ahead of Fat Buu as he was scared the boys would lose but wanted them to fight Fat Buu.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”

Look at the bold line. That means Gotenks is far ahead of Goku because Buu fought Goku and Super Buu was Gotenks's rival. That means Super Buu >>>> Fat Buu

[Undertaker]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Here Goku blatantly admits to Piccolo that this is a gamble - he's not certain these guys will absolutely win.

You also seem to be missing the fact that Goku also says that after seeing their power he is sure they can do it.

Actually, Goku doesn't think the boys are that strong at all -

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”[/qoute]

Nothing remarkable about them

What did you prove here? He thought they could have more power than they did in the World Tournament.

[Undertaker]

Sigh... It's very simple people. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and therefore Ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku. It's simply math people
Ssj: 50x base
Ssj2: 2x Ssj
Ssj3: 4x Ssj2
Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Ssj2 Goku x 4 = Ssj3 Goku
Ssj Gotenks x2 x4(x8) = Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj3 Gotenks >> Ssj3 Goku.
If you argue this you are arguing with official material and therefore shouldn't argue in the first place. Official statements, that Toriyama has no problem with, outweigh any statement made by character. Sadly the statement that supports Kid Buu >Super Buu is filler and is contradicted by previous more believable statements.

And I just posted that the official word is that Gotenk's isn't said to surpass Vegeta (Again, Goku is not mentioned, he is obviously stronger than Vegeta) until AFTER his ROSAT training. Meaning he can still be stronger than Vegeta, but weaker than Goku and Gohan.

There isn't any more for you to argue on this subject.

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

[Amuro Ray]

I'm sorry, but you are mixing up your terminology here. Pure Evil Boo is the grey Boo, not Evil Boo. Nobody is arguing Pure Boo(Kid Boo) is stronger than Fat Boo. What we know though is the Dai Kaioshin's influence was what was capping Pure Boo's power within Fat Boo. But when Pure Evil Boo comes into the equation and absorbs the Good Boo he gains some of the South Kaioshin's power and more of Pure Boo's power due to the Dai Kaioshin's influence being that much weaker.

Seeing as you can't see from normal x,y, z formula's I'll state what I said with actual names to make it more clear and I'll list them in order of weakest to strongest.

Good Boo = Dai Kaioshins power(Comes into play with the expulsion of Pure Boo's power maintains seal on South Kaioshin power)
Fat Boo = Pure Boo - Dai Kaioshin Influence(As he gets angry the less influence Dai Kaioshin has so he can use more of Pure Boo's power)
Pure Evil Boo(Gray Boo) = Pure Boo(Majority)
Pure Boo = original power
Evil Boo = Pure Boo + South Kaioshin(suppressed and unsealed due to weaker Dai Kaioshin influence)
Buff Boo = Pure Boo + South Kaioshin

A few things - South Kaioshinn is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER said to increase Buu's power. Not in the Manga, not in the guidebooks, not in the Anime, it's purely a theory that has been conjured by fans to explain something that is blatantly obvious. The guidebooks tell us that DaiKaio makes him weaker and makes NO mention of the South Kaioshinn - so please refrain from using it in your arguments, it's hard enough to interpret and argue sloppy writing, much less a theory made by fans.

Second, we KNOW "Buffbuu" is stronger than Superbuu(or whatever you want to call him) It's stated twice in the manga that I recall, once by Goku and again by Kibito, Kibito also referred to Kidbuu as the most dangerous - his nature of being "unpredictable" is never mentioned (again, this is a fan theory) - so they could only be referring to his strength, correct?

Third, according to the guidebooks, we know Gotenks to be stronger than Vegeta (and as a result anyone weaker than Vegeta), but his strength is NEVER compared to Goku's in the Manga, in the anime Goku dismisses the notion they are on his level. It is MY assumption that Goku is stronger than Gotenks, the Anime also strongly supports this theory

Finally - while a minor, when the subject of the Dragonballs are brought up, Goku ask Vegeta if he's going to revive Gohan AND Gotenks to fight. Gohan is shown to be clearly superior to Gotenks, why would they need both of their help if this being was weaker than Superbuu?

[Amuro Ray]

You could also interpret the gamble on the boys inexperience when it comes to battle. I would be skeptical of putting 2 kids in charge of a situation no matter how powerful they are. Goku's decision to make Gohan his secret weapon at the Cell games got him killed =/.

But we do see a theme - Goku seems to want to throw people into a hot pot and make them figure a way out. And he's already dead and gone at this point, I don't think he's considering dying again lol.

[Hitiro]

You could also interpret the gamble on the boys inexperience when it comes to battle. I would be skeptical of putting 2 kids in charge of a situation no matter how powerful they are. Goku's decision to make Gohan his secret weapon at the Cell games got him killed =/.

I made this comment earlier. I also believe this is what Goku mentioned about it being a "nasty" gamble. At the end of the day they are children. The first time Gohan had to deal with a person who was going to kill him he was scared and ran away crying instead of attacking when Piccolo and Kuririn gave him the chance. And up till when he was 10 he had always had allies to fight with him. After that he had to fight Perfect Cell alone. Piccolo states:

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

So the gamble with Gohan obviously wasn't with his power, but with his state of mind as he was a child. These kids are more than likely the same. This is the first time they've needed to fight an enemy who is going to kill them and there is no telling how they would react in that situation. This is where the gamble lies. And that is why Goku calls it "nasty," in a way its cruel to have to send kids into a death battle.

[Undertaker]

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P11.1-3
Context: Goku tells Piccolo that he ‘probably’ couldn’t have defeated Boo with Super Saiyan 3
Piccolo: “…Probably? Knowing you, why didn’t you try until the very end?...Does it have to do with that energy…?”
Goku: “No… I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

Here Goku blatantly admits to Piccolo that this is a gamble - he's not certain these guys will absolutely win.

Do you know how to read? He clearly says it's a gamble because he could of beaten Boo but chose not to but since the kids can do it so he gave it to them despite the facts they never fought. Goku told Picoolo 30 minutes would be enough. You are repeating what I addressed in this thread. You clearly are in denial.

I love how you insult my reading skills and then counter with a statement that isn't seen until 15-20 chapters later. It's a gamble because Goku doesn't know if it will work, there is nothing else to it.

He knows how fusion works and has extensive knowledge about it. It's the same like when Kaioshin said the Potara would make the fusion of Goku and Gohan > Buutenks in base. He clearly says it's a gamble because he chose not to beat Buu but then wanted the kids who have enough power. Your denying it. Stop it. And I know you are kakashiUzamaki.

[Amuro Ray]

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Why would he ask it if the change was not much?

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”

Goku is shocked at how strong Buu is. Super Buu was also sensed from the Kaioshin Realm while Fat Buu was not. That implies a huge gap.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

Piccolo's fear and statement implies Super Buu is far ahead of Fat Buu as he was scared the boys would lose but wanted them to fight Fat Buu.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”

Look at the bold line. That means Gotenks is far ahead of Goku because Buu fought Goku and Super Buu was Gotenks's rival. That means Super Buu >>>> Fat Buu

Correction - Both Goku and Piccolo comment on the Change in the nature of the KI more so than the power, Piccolo makes sure to comment that the nature of the KI has changed and become more evil - No one else on the lookout felt the change, which is strange considering everyone in the world AND Otherworld felt Goku's supposed 'weaker' SSJ3 transformation. And one more point - the type of KI is mentioned MANY times though out DBZ - Ultimate Gohan's arrival is met with Piccolo analyzing Gohan's more aggressive KI nature.

[Amuro Ray]

Sigh... It's very simple people. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and therefore Ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku. It's simply math people
Ssj: 50x base
Ssj2: 2x Ssj
Ssj3: 4x Ssj2
Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Ssj2 Goku x 4 = Ssj3 Goku
Ssj Gotenks x2 x4(x8) = Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj3 Gotenks >> Ssj3 Goku.
If you argue this you are arguing with official material and therefore shouldn't argue in the first place. Official statements, that Toriyama has no problem with, outweigh any statement made by character. Sadly the statement that supports Kid Buu >Super Buu is filler and is contradicted by previous more believable statements.

And I just posted that the official word is that Gotenk's isn't said to surpass Vegeta (Again, Goku is not mentioned, he is obviously stronger than Vegeta) until AFTER his ROSAT training. Meaning he can still be stronger than Vegeta, but weaker than Goku and Gohan.

There isn't any more for you to argue on this subject.

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

Gohan's form isn't given any multipliers, nor is fusion. Otherwise, all we know is that Gotenks is said to be stronger than Vegeta and anyone weaker than him - Goku isn't mentioned.

[Amuro Ray]

And who the hell is "kakashiUzamaki?"

I like Kakashi, but I'm not a Naruto fan in the least. Too slow and boring, and they talk about DBZ filler...

[Hitiro]

A few things - South Kaioshinn is NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER said to increase Buu's power. Not in the Manga, not in the guidebooks, not in the Anime, it's purely a theory that has been conjured by fans to explain something that is blatantly obvious. The guidebooks tell us that DaiKaio makes him weaker and makes NO mention of the South Kaioshinn - so please refrain from using it in your arguments, it's hard enough to interpret and argue sloppy writing, much less a theory made by fans.

Dai Kaioshin makes Boo weaker, yes. Nothing is mentioned about South Kaioshin so the logical assumption we can conclude from this is South Kaioshin does increase Boo's power. Why can we make this assumption? Because Evil Boo(Super Boo) later absorbs Gotenks and then Gohan and they were both shown to increase his power. We then see Boo revert to a Buff Boo, the same Boo that he becomes when he absorbed South Kaioshin, and Goku explicitly states his power increased.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Second, we KNOW "Buffbuu" is stronger than Superbuu(or whatever you want to call him) It's stated twice in the manga that I recall, once by Goku and again by Kibito, Kibito also referred to Kidbuu as the most dangerous - his nature of being "unpredictable" is never mentioned (again, this is a fan theory) - so they could only be referring to his strength, correct?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I'm sorry, but no. The Kaioshin never calls him the most dangerous. And Goku doesn't call him the most dangerous either. Elder Kaioshin calls him the most troublesome one. but that doesn't necessarily mean strength, now does it?

Third, according to the guidebooks, we know Gotenks to be stronger than Vegeta (and as a result anyone weaker than Vegeta), but his strength is NEVER compared to Goku's in the Manga, in the anime Goku dismisses the notion they are on his level. It is MY assumption that Goku is stronger than Gotenks, the Anime also strongly supports this theory

In the manga Goku flat out states that, after the Majin powerup Vegeta received, Vegeta was as powerful as him. They were literally equals.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

So if Gotenks surpassed Vegeta's base strength then it would be the same for Goku's base strength.

Finally - while a minor, when the subject of the Dragonballs are brought up, Goku ask Vegeta if he's going to revive Gohan AND Gotenks to fight. Gohan is shown to be clearly superior to Gotenks, why would they need both of their help if this being was weaker than Superbuu?

This has been mentioned before and I have stated what Goku was saying in this sentence:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Goku says that Vegeta will bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life with the wish. So either of them can fight. Goku never implies that they would be be used to fight Pure Boo together. If Goku was implying that they were going to use both boys he would have worded it better. He would have said something like "Oh! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can both fight." The "and" in Goku's sentence is merely pertaining to the wish. If I brought back everybody who died on Earth would you not state that I have also brought Gohan and Gotenks back to life? Because that is correct, right? I brought back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life. I didn't bring back only one. And I certainly would not bring back one without the other. So when Goku says this sentence what he's basically saying is "You'll bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life using the dragonballs." and then following that "So they are alive to fight." Again, Goku never explicitly says that they would both be fighting. Goku never says they would both be brought back to life to fight. Goku just says they will be brought back to life so they can fight.

[Undertaker]

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6
Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

Why would he ask it if the change was not much?

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1
Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...”

Goku is shocked at how strong Buu is. Super Buu was also sensed from the Kaioshin Realm while Fat Buu was not. That implies a huge gap.

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6
Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?”
Goten: “He-he really has changed…”
Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

Piccolo's fear and statement implies Super Buu is far ahead of Fat Buu as he was scared the boys would lose but wanted them to fight Fat Buu.

Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3
Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him
Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.”
*Boo comes out*
Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!”
Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…”

Look at the bold line. That means Gotenks is far ahead of Goku because Buu fought Goku and Super Buu was Gotenks's rival. That means Super Buu >>>> Fat Buu

Correction - Both Goku and Piccolo comment on the Change in the nature of the KI more so than the power, Piccolo makes sure to comment that the nature of the KI has changed and become more evil - No one else on the lookout felt the change, which is strange considering everyone in the world AND Otherworld felt Goku's supposed SJ3 transformation. And one more point - the type of KI is mentioned MANY times though out DBZ - Ultimate Gohan's arrival is met with Piccolo analyzing Gohan's more aggressive KI nature.

Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

They are talking about strength as this was Krillin's respond. Read before claiming false things. Yes, he also talked about the fact he is pure evil but he also says he is definitely stronger in every way. Also its not like Goku hasnt sensed Pure Evil Ki before. Piccolo Damiao and Piccolo Jr were both pure evil. So it has nothing to do with it being pure evil ki now or anything. Its questioning the sheer power of it.

Sigh... It's very simple people. Ssj Gotenks is stronger than Ssj2 Goku and therefore Ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Ssj3 Goku. It's simply math people
Ssj: 50x base
Ssj2: 2x Ssj
Ssj3: 4x Ssj2
Ssj Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Ssj2 Goku x 4 = Ssj3 Goku
Ssj Gotenks x2 x4(x8) = Ssj3 Gotenks.
Ssj3 Gotenks >> Ssj3 Goku.
If you argue this you are arguing with official material and therefore shouldn't argue in the first place. Official statements, that Toriyama has no problem with, outweigh any statement made by character. Sadly the statement that supports Kid Buu >Super Buu is filler and is contradicted by previous more believable statements.

And I just posted that the official word is that Gotenk's isn't said to surpass Vegeta (Again, Goku is not mentioned, he is obviously stronger than Vegeta) until AFTER his ROSAT training. Meaning he can still be stronger than Vegeta, but weaker than Goku and Gohan.

There isn't any more for you to argue on this subject.

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

Gohan's form isn't given any multipliers, nor is fusion. Otherwise, all we know is that Gotenks is said to be stronger than Vegeta and anyone weaker than him - Goku isn't mentioned.[/quote]

This comment makes no sense. The Manga shows Base Gotenks as SSJ2 tier as he survived an encounter with Buu. The Daizenshuu repeats it. What does Gohan have to do with it? The Daiz says Gohan and Goten are equals supporting me.

And who the hell is "kakashiUzamaki?"

I like Kakashi, but I'm not a Naruto fan in the least. Too slow and boring, and they talk about DBZ filler...

I know you are him.

[Amuro Ray]

Dai Kaioshin makes Boo weaker, yes. Nothing is mentioned about South Kaioshin so the logical assumption we can conclude from this is South Kaioshin does increase Boo's power.

No we can't. After this, I will ignore any part of your argument that makes such a baseless assumptions.

Why can we make this assumption? Because Evil Boo(Super Boo) later absorbs Gotenks and then Gohan and they were both shown to increase his power. We then see Boo revert to a Buff Boo, the same Boo that he becomes when he absorbed South Kaioshin, and Goku explicitly states his power increased.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Second, we KNOW "Buffbuu" is stronger than Superbuu(or whatever you want to call him) It's stated twice in the manga that I recall, once by Goku and again by Kibito, Kibito also referred to Kidbuu as the most dangerous - his nature of being "unpredictable" is never mentioned (again, this is a fan theory) - so they could only be referring to his strength, correct?

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

I'm sorry, but no. The Kaioshin never calls him the most dangerous. And Goku doesn't call him the most dangerous either. Elder Kaioshin calls him the most troublesome one. but that doesn't necessarily mean strength, now does it?

Fair - but because it isn't mentioned, I'll assume that South Kaioshinn doesn't have any effect on Buu's strength. See how that works, you can't reference yourself as a source. Also, you are correct, I might have been thinking about a line from the anime. What does the guidebooks say about Kidbuu?

In the manga Goku flat out states that, after the Majin powerup Vegeta received, Vegeta was as powerful as him. They were literally equals.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight a bit
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

So if Gotenks surpassed Vegeta's base strength then it would be the same for Goku's base strength.

But it doesn't say base strength, it says surpassed Vegeta and the others and make no mention of SSJ transformations. If they wanted to mention Goku, I sure they would have, considering it is less character lines to write and all, and he is technically stronger.

This has been mentioned before and I have stated what Goku was saying in this sentence:

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P7.4
Context: after Vegeta has the Earth brought back with the dragonballs
Goku: “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
Vegeta: “No.”

Goku says that Vegeta will bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life with the wish. So either of them can fight. Goku never implies that they would be be used to fight Pure Boo together. If Goku was implying that they were going to use both boys he would have worded it better. He would have said something like "Oh! You'll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can both fight." The "and" in Goku's sentence is merely pertaining to the wish. If I brought back everybody who died on Earth would you not state that I have also brought Gohan and Gotenks back to life? Because that is correct, right? I brought back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life. I didn't bring back only one. And I certainly would not bring back one without the other. So when Goku says this sentence what he's basically saying is "You'll bring back both Gohan and Gotenks back to life using the dragonballs." and then following that "So they are alive to fight." Again, Goku never explicitly says that they would both be fighting. Goku never says they would both be brought back to life to fight. Goku just says they will be brought back to life so they can fight.

You just repeated what I stated before and added words to the statement to mean what you wanted to mean. I'll point it out to you again, he asked if they should fight - and at no time did he imply that they could win. In fact, as crazy of an idea the Spirt Bomb was, Goku didn't bother to suggest bringing the boys again.

Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo
Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki…[ ] …He’s changed…All due to some idiotic Earthlings…He’s become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle…Th-this…this…”
Kuririn: “Wha…What?...D-don’t tell me you’re saying this is bad!? …It’s al-alright! We’ve got the squirts’ Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest…!”
Dende: “…”
Piccolo: “…That’d be nice, but…”

They are talking about strength as this was Krillin's respond. Read before claiming false things. Yes, he also talked about the fact he is pure evil but he also says he is definitely stronger in every way. Also its not like Goku hasnt sensed Pure Evil Ki before. Piccolo Damiao and Piccolo Jr were both pure evil. So it has nothing to do with it being pure evil ki now or anything. Its questioning the sheer power of it.

Krillin asked Piccolo if this transformation "is bad?" Notice Krillin couldn't tell for himself, and Piccolo specifically mentions the nature of the KI, not "how powerful" it is.

He does it again when talking about Gohan -

Chapter: 497 (DBZ 303), P4.1
Piccolo: “Is-is that Gohan…!? No…Something’s different about him…His features are a little different…And he has a different type of ki than before…His softness has vanished too…That’s why I couldn’t tell it was him…”

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

The Manga shows Base Gotenks as SSJ2 tier as he survived an encounter with Buu. The Daizenshuu repeats it. What does Gohan have to do with it? The Daiz says Gohan and Goten are equals supporting me.

And who is arguing about Goten? Why does his strength matter? Fusion isn't given multiplier, so Goten + Trunks = Purple for all we know.

And who the hell is "kakashiUzamaki?"

I like Kakashi, but I'm not a Naruto fan in the least. Too slow and boring, and they talk about DBZ filler...

I know you are him.

I think this is an appropriate time to use this.

[Darkprince410]

The Daizenshuu says Gohan and Goten are equals. Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the others means Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta. Your reading skills are terrible

The Manga shows Base Gotenks as SSJ2 tier as he survived an encounter with Buu. The Daizenshuu repeats it. What does Gohan have to do with it? The Daiz says Gohan and Goten are equals supporting me.

And who is arguing about Goten? Why does his strength matter? Fusion isn't given multiplier, so Goten + Trunks = Purple for all we know.

Given that the boys are not far behind their fathers in terms of power, simply adding Ssj Goten and Ssj Trunks together as far as power goes would put Ssj Gotenks (prior to the Room of Spirit and Time) at Ssj2 tier not far behind their fathers. And that's just assuming that it's simply adding their battle powers together.

Ssj Goten + Ssj Trunks = Ssj Gotenks (Ssj2 tier battle power)
Ssj2 Gotenks = 2x Ssj Gotenks = 2x Ssj2 battle power
Ssj3 Gotenks = 4x Ssj2 Gotenks = 8x Ssj Gotenks = 8x Ssj2 battle power

That'd put Ssj3 Goku, at best, between Ssj2 and Ssj3 Gotenks in terms of power, and that's just assuming that it adds them together. If it does anything beside just adding them together, then that's going to make Gotenks even stronger.