Is Master Roshi's moon-busting feat an outlier?

[MrFreeze7005]

In the manga we see that Roshi blows up the moon during the 21st Budokai.
But since we know that all the characters at that point in DB were weaklings, do you think this feat can be regarded as legit or not?

Personally, I think its an outlier and a huge inconsistency because there are several other statements later on which massively contradict this feat.
Discuss.

[Hitiro]

In the manga we see that Roshi blows up the moon during the 21st Budokai.
But since we know that all the characters at that point in DB were weaklings, do you think this feat can be regarded as legit or not?

Personally, I think its an outlier and a huge inconsistency because there are several other statements later on which massively contradict this feat.
Discuss.

I don't believe its an inconsistent feat at all. What are you comparing it to? And what are these statements?

[MrFreeze7005]

In the manga we see that Roshi blows up the moon during the 21st Budokai.
But since we know that all the characters at that point in DB were weaklings, do you think this feat can be regarded as legit or not?

Personally, I think its an outlier and a huge inconsistency because there are several other statements later on which massively contradict this feat.
Discuss.

I don't believe its an inconsistent feat at all. What are you comparing it to? And what are these statements?

It is definitely inconsistent IMO...
> Roshi himself admitted that he can't defeat the Red Ribbon army on his own so if that feat is consistent, then the RRA should be having moon level durability.
> The goku who could fight on par with Roshi was absolutely no match for Tao pai. Tao is the guy who got fatally wounded by a grenade. Now Roshi doesn't have moon level durability, does he?
> King Piccolo, who is far stronger than Roshi was stated to be only a city buster even after he regained his youth. He got exhausted after firing just 2 city busting blasts.
> Then there is Yajirobe (who is stronger or on par with Roshi), who confirms this. he says to Goku
Chapter 161:
Yajirobe: “But man, what kind of a guy are you?...I can’t believe you beat someone who could blow a city to pieces…”

So either its an outlier, or AT thinks Island > City > Moon.

[Hitiro]

> Roshi himself admitted that he can't defeat the Red Ribbon army on his own so if that feat is consistent, then the RRA should be having moon level durability.

You are under the impression that Roshi has the durability to survive the onslaught of the RRA. Goku took missiles to the face at this point in time. Roshi was weaker than Goku by a good margin by this point.

> The goku who could fight on par with Roshi was absolutely no match for Tao pai. Tao is the guy who got fatally wounded by a grenade. Now Roshi doesn't have moon level durability, does he?

Why does Roshi need moon level durability to destroy the moon? And who's to say that tanking a ki blast and tanking an explosion from an explosive are the same thing? If Goku can output enough ki to defend against other ki that doesn't mean Goku can tank an explosion that has nothing to do with ki. Ki negates ki, ki doesn't negate another destructive force at the same level. Or that's at least what I believe. Freeza said that he used up too much energy trying to destroy Namek and that he doesn't have enough to weather the explosion. Going by that logic Freeza's ki attack > Planet durability. Planet destruction > Freeza's durability.

For all we know ki defence could be something like this:

Ki attack: 100
Ki defence needed to block ki attack: 100

Explosion from explosive: 100
Ki defence needed to block explosion: 500

> King Piccolo, who is far stronger than Roshi was stated to be only a city buster even after he regained his youth. He got exhausted after firing just 2 city busting blasts.

But Piccolo used a ki attack which was an area of effect to kill Goku. That is much different from Roshi's directed beam. It would take a lot more power to maintain the same destructive force over a large area than a beam you fire to destroy a planet by destroying its core.

> Then there is Yajirobe (who is stronger or on par with Roshi), who confirms this. he says to Goku
Chapter 161:
Yajirobe: “But man, what kind of a guy are you?...I can’t believe you beat someone who could blow a city to pieces…”

So either its an outlier, or AT thinks Island > City > Moon.

Up until this point Yajirobe hasn't even seen Roshi do a moon buster. He hasn't even seen a ki attack. Ki attack >>>>> Physical attack. Considering, Yajirobe would have been astonished if he saw Roshi take out the moon and he would have said the exact same thing to Goku about nearly beating Roshi. And again. The nature of Piccolo's attack was different from Roshi's, which is why it wasn't as destructive but still took up a lot of power. Lets also not forget that Piccolo was aiming to kill Goku with the technique, he probably kept the radius of the ki attack to a distance Goku couldn't avoid and upped the destructive force within that area. Vegeta's sacrifice against Fat Boo wasn't a large area but its destructive force was powerful enough to kill Fat Boo, but it also cost his life. If it hadn't of killed him its doubtful Vegeta would have any ki left after doing an attack like that.

[MrFreeze7005]

You are under the impression that Roshi has the durability to survive the onslaught of the RRA. Goku took missiles to the face at this point in time. Roshi was weaker than Goku by a good margin by this point.

If Roshi doesn't have enough power to beat them, that means his firepower is not strong enough to destroy the RRA. Why can't he just blow up the base of the RRA with less than 1% of his power and end all their threat? Its because he wasn't strong enough.
Do you have any idea how much power it takes to blow up the moon?
Energy needed to destroy a large city like NY = 1 MT
Largest Nuke detonation in history = 50 MT (can destroy an entire country)
Power needed to blow up the moon = 300,000,000,000 MT !!!!
Not even the combination of all the nukes in the world can even come close to this level of power. Yet, Roshi needs to charge up his kamehameha just to destroy Ox king's mountain when he could have done it with less than a billionth of his power. So its surely inconsistent

Why does Roshi need moon level durability to destroy the moon? And who's to say that tanking a ki blast and tanking an explosion from an explosive are the same thing? If Goku can output enough ki to defend against other ki that doesn't mean Goku can tank an explosion that has nothing to do with ki. Ki negates ki, ki doesn't negate another destructive force at the same level. Or that's at least what I believe. Freeza said that he used up too much energy trying to destroy Namek and that he doesn't have enough to weather the explosion. Going by that logic Freeza's ki attack > Planet durability. Planet destruction > Freeza's durability.

I'm not talking about Roshi having moon level durability...I'm talking about his or Goku's inability to beat Tao Pai. If Roshi is truly a moon buster, he should be able to effortlessly beat Tao with less than a billionth of his kamehameha output. Tao is the one who can get nearly killed by grenades.

But Piccolo used a ki attack which was an area of effect to kill Goku. That is much different from Roshi's directed beam. It would take a lot more power to maintain the same destructive force over a large area than a beam you fire to destroy a planet by destroying its core.

Yet Goku was able to tank that blast at point blank even in his injured condition and still had enough energy to fight.
Keep in mind, the manga states KP was at full power when he fired that blast. So if he was at full power, the blast should be stronger than Tien's tri beam or Roshi's kamehameha, making its potency more than moon level. So Goku should have moon+ level durability if he can tank that blast.

Up until this point Yajirobe hasn't even seen Roshi do a moon buster. He hasn't even seen a ki attack. Ki attack >>>>> Physical attack. Considering, Yajirobe would have been astonished if he saw Roshi take out the moon and he would have said the exact same thing to Goku about nearly beating Roshi. And again.

Yes, ofcourse yajirobe would be astonished if he saw Roshi take out the moon.
But keep in mind, Yajirobe is stronger than Tao, who can beat 21st BT Roshi/Goku. So Yajirobe can beat a "moon" buster, yet he can't beat a city buster (as he says himself)...so DB logic makes so sense once again.

Lets also not forget that Piccolo was aiming to kill Goku with the technique, he probably kept the radius of the ki attack to a distance Goku couldn't avoid and upped the destructive force within that area. Vegeta's sacrifice against Fat Boo wasn't a large area but its destructive force was powerful enough to kill Fat Boo, but it also cost his life. If it hadn't of killed him its doubtful Vegeta would have any ki left after doing an attack like that.

Goku however tanked it though KP fired it at full power...which means he can tank even Roshi's kamehameha or Tien's tri beam, which is also stated to be much stronger than Roshi's kamehameha.


Finally I'd like to say these are the reasons why i believe the moon busting feat is inconsistent
> Grenade >> Tao Pai Pai >>> Goku's kamehameha, yet Goku=Roshi.
> Roshi couldn’t/can't beat the Red Ribbon Army or blow up their base.
> Multiple instances of shock and awe at lesser feats.
> Acknowledging said lesser feats as more powerful.
> And the said lesser feats they acknowledged stated to be only city/island level at max.

Its inconsistent just like the scene where buu saga goku struggled with 40 tons, though we know that even kid goku has shown far better strength feats wayyy back in DB.

[The Monkey King]

Goku struggling with 40 tons makes sense in context:
1. Goku was using bukujutsu to make the weight training even harder.
2. Goku wasn't using ki in base to raise his strength when he was shadow boxing with 8 tons and while struggling with 40.
3. By the time Goku's weights were changed to 8 tons to 40, Goku was already tired due to the instensive training (on panel you can see him sweating quite a lot)
4. Goku tranasformed into a super saiyan in order to revitalise his stamina and raise his strength with ki which caused him to shadow box with 40 tons while flying as though the weights weren't even there.

Another part of Goku struggling with 40 tons is based on how strong you think buu saga base Goku is. Quite a few people think he's at semi/imperfect Cell level and stronger than buu saga Piccolo, but Goku being this strong and struggling with 40 tons seems inconsistent I'll admit that.

But according to Bills in BoG Frieza>base Goku, so maybe buu saga base Goku is only 10-15X stronger than Namek saga base Goku which would make the 40 tons feat make more sense.

On Topic:
I've heard some people say Roshi didn't want to kill all the RRA soldiers but wanted to go toe-to-toe with them like Goku did but he didn't have to stamina due to him being too old. Also remember that the kamehameha raises the power level a lot. So since master Roshi is the creator of the technique maybe his PL went from 100-300 when he fired the kamehameha which is around the same PL Piccolo was when he destroyed the moon.

[Hitiro]

If Roshi doesn't have enough power to beat them, that means his firepower is not strong enough to destroy the RRA. Why can't he just blow up the base of the RRA with less than 1% of his power and end all their threat? Its because he wasn't strong enough.
Do you have any idea how much power it takes to blow up the moon?
Energy needed to destroy a large city like NY = 1 MT
Largest Nuke detonation in history = 50 MT (can destroy an entire country)
Power needed to blow up the moon = 300,000,000,000 MT !!!!
Not even the combination of all the nukes in the world can even come close to this level of power. Yet, Roshi needs to charge up his kamehameha just to destroy Ox king's mountain when he could have done it with less than a billionth of his power. So its surely inconsistent

You realise That Roshi's Kamehameha wasn't the size of the moon, right? Roshi's Kamehameha was enough to blow it up from the core. Roshi could have probably fired one or two at RRA but they wouldn't have been big enough to encompass the whole base.

Why does Roshi need moon level durability to destroy the moon? And who's to say that tanking a ki blast and tanking an explosion from an explosive are the same thing? If Goku can output enough ki to defend against other ki that doesn't mean Goku can tank an explosion that has nothing to do with ki. Ki negates ki, ki doesn't negate another destructive force at the same level. Or that's at least what I believe. Freeza said that he used up too much energy trying to destroy Namek and that he doesn't have enough to weather the explosion. Going by that logic Freeza's ki attack > Planet durability. Planet destruction > Freeza's durability.

I'm not talking about Roshi having moon level durability...I'm talking about his or Goku's inability to beat Tao Pai. If Roshi is truly a moon buster, he should be able to effortlessly beat Tao with less than a billionth of his kamehameha output. Tao is the one who can get nearly killed by grenades.

Again, ki attacks against opponents who use ki themselves are negated. Nobody needs the durability of the moon to survive a moon busting ki attack, they just need enough ki to negate the ki of the attack. You need more ki to negate a grenade explosion because its a different type of force you are dealing with.

But Piccolo used a ki attack which was an area of effect to kill Goku. That is much different from Roshi's directed beam. It would take a lot more power to maintain the same destructive force over a large area than a beam you fire to destroy a planet by destroying its core.

Yet Goku was able to tank that blast at point blank even in his injured condition and still had enough energy to fight.
Keep in mind, the manga states KP was at full power when he fired that blast. So if he was at full power, the blast should be stronger than Tenshinhan's tri beam or Roshi's kamehameha, making its potency more than moon level. So Goku should have moon+ level durability if he can tank that blast.

Keep in mind what I just said, Goku doesn't need moon+ level durability to tank the blast. He just needs enough ki to block the moon buster attack. I don't see a problem with this. If the attack was something other than ki then Goku would need a lot more ki to increase the natural durability of the body to counteract the potency of the attack.

Ki attack: moon level
Ki defence: moon level

Explosion: moon level
Ki defence: many times higher than moon level to prevent physical damage rather than ki damage

Up until this point Yajirobe hasn't even seen Roshi do a moon buster. He hasn't even seen a ki attack. Ki attack >>>>> Physical attack. Considering, Yajirobe would have been astonished if he saw Roshi take out the moon and he would have said the exact same thing to Goku about nearly beating Roshi. And again.

Yes, ofcourse yajirobe would be astonished if he saw Roshi take out the moon.
But keep in mind, Yajirobe is stronger than Tao, who can beat 21st BT Roshi/Goku. So Yajirobe can beat a "moon" buster, yet he can't beat a city buster (as he says himself)...so DB logic makes so sense once again.

But you are missing the point. Yajirobe may be able to beat a "moon" buster but he doesn't understand anything about Ki. You are basically saying that if I beat Master Roshi who in the fight with me never used a moon buster attack or any ki attack whatsoever and you came along and said "Wow! I can't believe you beat someone who can blow up the moon." I'd be like "What? Blow up a moon? Don't joke around." Yajirobe was impressed because up till that point he has NEVER seen the destructive force of a ki attack. Had he witnessed Roshi's Kamehameha at the Tenkaichi Budokai Yajirobe would have never said anything about being impressed Goku beat someone who could blow up a city. How is Yajirobe supposed to know he can beat a moon buster if he's never seen ki before?

Lets also not forget that Piccolo was aiming to kill Goku with the technique, he probably kept the radius of the ki attack to a distance Goku couldn't avoid and upped the destructive force within that area. Vegeta's sacrifice against Fat Boo wasn't a large area but its destructive force was powerful enough to kill Fat Boo, but it also cost his life. If it hadn't of killed him its doubtful Vegeta would have any ki left after doing an attack like that.

Goku however tanked it though KP fired it at full power...which means he can tank even Roshi's kamehameha or Tenshinhan's tri beam, which is also stated to be much stronger than Roshi's kamehameha.

Your point? Ki negates ki on a point by point basis. If Tenshinhan's Kikoho is 20 Ki then Goku needs 20 Ki to block the attack. However if it was a nuclear bomb with the same destructive force as Tenshinhan's Kikoho then Goku would need a lot more than 20 Ki to block it because it isn't Ki he's trying to block.

> Grenade >> Tao Pai Pai >>> Goku's kamehameha, yet Goku=Roshi.

Again, physical explosions >>>>> ki attacks. You are under the premise that because Tao Pai Pai can tank Goku's Kamehameha it naturally gives him defensive capabilities to go against attacks that aren't ki based. We know full well that ki negates ki equally but using ki to block something other than ki requires a lot more ki.

> Roshi couldn’t/can't beat the Red Ribbon Army or blow up their base.

You are under the assumption that Roshi's Kamehameha is big enough to wipe out their base. Roshi's Kamehameha wasn't moon size, he just blew up the moons core which subsequently caused a chain reaction to destroy the moon itself.

> Multiple instances of shock and awe at lesser feats.

Only by characters who have never seen ki based attacks before, like Yajirobe. They don't have the experience to understand that Goku has been up against attacks of the same nature before. If we fast forward to the Buu saga Videl was constantly surprised by Gohan and everyone elses feats. But to them who have been doing them for years they are child's play.

> Acknowledging said lesser feats as more powerful.

Nobody ever acknowledges lesser feats as more powerful.

> And the said lesser feats they acknowledged stated to be only city/island level at max.

Exactly where is it stated to be only city/island level at max? Piccolo never states that he can only wipe out the city. He just chooses to confine the blast to the city. Vegeta in the Boo Saga does a powerful ki explosion and it doesn't envelope the whole world. It is just kept to a small area. That doesn't make the feat only able to destroy a city or island. Had the same attack been launched as a blast it would probably be moon buster level. You simply don't know.

Its inconsistent just like the scene where buu saga goku struggled with 40 tons, though we know that even kid goku has shown far better strength feats wayyy back in DB.

Nothing proves the 40 tons wasn't under any sort of gravity effect. Kaio's planet was 10 time Earths gravity. How do you know where Goku was the gravity wasn't 10 or more? Also lets not forget that Goku wasn't "lifting" the 40 tons. He was trying to "fly" with the 40 tons. Its quite possible that it takes a lot more effort to fly with 40 tons than to lift 40 tons on the ground.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Umm no... Scaling wise in regards to DBZ, Roshi can blow up a moon. Cell's solar system busting statement is really the only thing to be skeptical about. Hmm Roshi vs Tao Pai Pai and an entire army is probably out of Roshi's league so he wasn't lying. Goku succeeded where Roshi couldn't because no one saw him as a threat until it was too late. Also a grenade hurt a fatigued Tao plus heat is still a a factor to consider. While a grenade may lack the necessary force to penetrate his defenses, the heat is enough to kill him. For example, Goku has trouble with the heat in the ROSAT which doesn't even come to 200 F. Yajirobe doesn't know how to manage Ki and therefore would think it's impressive to level a city. Furthermore Piccolo has to manipulate the Ki to give it such expanse. He can still use a lot of Ki with a small condensed attack.

[Bussani]

Its inconsistent just like the scene where buu saga goku struggled with 40 tons, though we know that even kid goku has shown far better strength feats wayyy back in DB.

One of the guides did explain that it was because bukujutsu made it harder--but that said, I don't think there are many feats in Dragon Ball that contradict it. The main one is Goku pushing a very large boulder, but pushing isn't exactly the same as lifting, so I give it a bit of a pass. On the whole, the progress of lifting power seems to make sense to me, going from Goku lifting small cars and wearing weighted clothes (neither of which are terribly heavy in the grand scheme), to training in 10-100 times Earth's gravity, to Vegeta training in three times that. In fact, Vegeta in 300G would be less than half as heavy as Goku would be with forty tons holding him down. If you ask me, if anything seems inconsistent here, it's those couple of Dragon Ball feats.

Unless we start bringing the anime into the equation. The anime had a lot of huge strength feats.

Goku wasn't using ki in base to raise his strength when he was shadow boxing with 8 tons and while struggling with 40.

I'm not sure I believe that myself.

Nothing proves the 40 tons wasn't under any sort of gravity effect. Kaio's planet was 10 time Earths gravity. How do you know where Goku was the gravity wasn't 10 or more?

The planet he was on was Heaven. I find it hard to believe that somewhere that's supposed to be paradise for everyone in the universe would have outrageous gravity. More importantly, I doubt Toriyama would write "40 tons" and actually mean "40 tons multiplied by the gravity which I'm not telling you about."

[Kaboom]

It is a bit of an oddity, for the reasons you've listed. But I'd say treat it like most feats in those earliest gags-and-goofiness days of the manga. Don't outright disregard it, but don't try too hard to factor it in or measure it against any of the more "consistent" feats later on when the series got more serious.

[Hitiro]

The planet he was on was Heaven. I find it hard to believe that somewhere that's supposed to be paradise for everyone in the universe would have outrageous gravity. More importantly, I doubt Toriyama would write "40 tons" and actually mean "40 tons multiplied by the gravity which I'm not telling you about."

Why wouldn't he? On a planet where 10 times gravity is normal would you have the characters saying things like "He's wearing 40 tons, but don't forget that the planet has a gravity 10x that of Earth so he's actually training with 400 tons." There is simply no reason for him to state it in that fashion if its the regular. Also does it specifically say where he is? In the anime I thought it was stated he went to a planet where all of the martial artists who have contributed to the Universe have gone. If that is the case then 10x is more than ideal for them. And why would 10x earths gravity be outrageous? If Goku was on "Heaven" then surely the gravity would only effect people with bodies. The only people with bodies would be martial artists who have done good and have been allowed to keep their bodies. Spirits without bodies wouldn't feel the gravity.

[Kamiccolo9]

The planet he was on was Heaven. I find it hard to believe that somewhere that's supposed to be paradise for everyone in the universe would have outrageous gravity. More importantly, I doubt Toriyama would write "40 tons" and actually mean "40 tons multiplied by the gravity which I'm not telling you about."

Why wouldn't he? On a planet where 10 times gravity is normal would you have the characters saying things like "He's wearing 40 tons, but don't forget that the planet has a gravity 10x that of Earth so he's actually training with 400 tons." There is simply no reason for him to state it in that fashion if its the regular. Also does it specifically say where he is? In the anime I thought it was stated he went to a planet where all of the martial artists who have contributed to the Universe have gone. If that is the case then 10x is more than ideal for them. And why would 10x earths gravity be outrageous? If Goku was on "Heaven" then surely the gravity would only effect people with bodies. The only people with bodies would be martial artists who have done good and have been allowed to keep their bodies. Spirits without bodies wouldn't feel the gravity.

In the anime, he is on Dai Kaio's planet. He never went there in the manga, however.

[dbzfan7]

I think the strength feats are inconsistent. But if you include the anime, it gets worse as they portray more strength feats there.

[Fizzer]

I've always thought it really stood out. We were meant to be impressed by Tenshinhan blowing up the Tenkaichi arena years later, at which Roshi said the Kikoho was evidently much more powerful than the Kamehameha. I'm pretty sure him blowing up the moon at that point was fairly tongue-in-cheek, like most of the superhuman feats back then.

[The Monkey King]

Goku wasn't using ki in base to raise his strength when he was shadow boxing with 8 tons and while struggling with 40.

I'm not sure I believe that myself.

Why not? The amount of weight Goku can handle with muscle alone scales steadily throughout the manga until it reaches it's limit (40 tons). While the amount of ki Goku has increases in huge leaps and bounds, which surpasses the limits of his muscles immensely.

[Bussani]

Why wouldn't he? On a planet where 10 times gravity is normal would you have the characters saying things like "He's wearing 40 tons, but don't forget that the planet has a gravity 10x that of Earth so he's actually training with 400 tons."

No, I'd have them say "he's training with 400 tons." This is a comic for little boys, not a math problem. Besides, one of the guidebooks specifically addresses what makes this feat especially challenging for Goku; if they really wanted to use gravity to explain it, that would have been the perfect place to bring it up.

Also does it specifically say where he is? In the anime I thought it was stated he went to a planet where all of the martial artists who have contributed to the Universe have gone.

The guides say that it's Heaven, which floats between Enma's palace and the Dai Kaio's world with all the martial artists.

And why would 10x earths gravity be outrageous? If Goku was on "Heaven" then surely the gravity would only effect people with bodies. The only people with bodies would be martial artists who have done good and have been allowed to keep their bodies.

I'm not sure it's ever stated that martial artists are the only ones who get to keep their bodies. There's a small dog and some kind of jellyfish with halos in the background when Goku's on Heaven, too, and I'm not sure they're supposed to be martial artists--but admittedly, I could be wrong.

What did that dog do to get such special treatment, anyway?

The amount of weight Goku can handle with muscle alone scales steadily throughout the manga

Who says he ever used muscles alone?

[Kamiccolo9]

And why would 10x earths gravity be outrageous? If Goku was on "Heaven" then surely the gravity would only effect people with bodies. The only people with bodies would be martial artists who have done good and have been allowed to keep their bodies.

I'm not sure it's ever stated that martial artists are the only ones who get to keep their bodies. There's a small dog and some kind of jellyfish with halos in the background when Goku's on Heaven, too, and I'm not sure they're supposed to be martial artists--but admittedly, I could be wrong.

What did that dog do to get such special treatment, anyway?

Maybe animals get special treatment? What I want to know is what Bubbles ever did.

[The Monkey King]

The amount of weight Goku can handle with muscle alone scales steadily throughout the manga

Who says he ever used muscles alone?

I have a hard time believing Kid Goku needed ki to handle a 20kg turtle shell

[Polyphase Avatron]

Personally I think kami being able to fix the moon somehow was way more of an asspull

[Bussani]

Maybe animals get special treatment? What I want to know is what Bubbles ever did.

Rather than there being a hard rule on who does and doesn't get their bodies, the gods seem to have some authority to make those decisions. I'd guess Bubbles got his body because Kaio wanted him to--I mean, who's going to argue with Kaio? Maybe the dog was also some god's pet or favorite or something. Or maybe it saved a whole planet somehow.

I have a hard time believing Kid Goku needed ki to handle a 20kg turtle shell

Fair enough, but as you say, that's more about Goku not needing it there. What about when he trained in 100G? Is there any reason to assume he wasn't using all of his strength--muscle and ki--when he pushed himself with that training? Heck, even the narrator says that he was pushing both his body and ki to their limits that time.

I'm not saying what you said is impossible. You can definitely interpret it all that way. I guess I'm just saying that it isn't the only interpretation?