Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
But I want to hear his side of the argument. He says SSJ Gotenks is weaker then SSJ Goku. So I want to hear him out and let him explain why Goku and Piccolo would let someone at SSJ tier fight Fat Boo, when you need SSJ3 tier power to fight Fat Boo.
I can respond for him :
Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He fought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.
We know he never fought Fat Boo, But why would Goku have Gotenks fight Fat Boo if Gotenks isn't stronger then SSJ Goku?
Also the other forum threads are much calmer then this one. The general, music, Kai, fan works, etc are usually straight forward. This thread has lots of heated arguments though. If you want to see the community at it best. That would be any thread that isn't the in-universe thread.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri May 03, 2013 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Undertaker wrote:"Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."
To be fair, "going beyond the power of a Saiyan" was the norm starting in the Namek arc.
Undertaker wrote:Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high.
Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
"As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan.
This all implies that the half-breeds have more hidden power/dormant ability than the pure bloods."
Now this is how the Daizenshuu describes SSjin3;
Daizenshuu 7- Dragonball Encyclopedia. Special Attack Dictionary
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits."
So once again that means at the very least SSjin3 Gotenks>SSjin3 Goku.
So the argument is:
- Half-breeds have more dormant power than pure Saiyans
- Gotenks has more dormant power than Goku
- SSj3 brings said dormant power out
- Therefore, SSj3 Gotenks has more power being brought out than SSj3 Goku
Undertaker wrote:"Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he loses his reason his true power explodes."
To be fair, "going beyond the power of a Saiyan" was the norm starting in the Namek arc.
Undertaker wrote:Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
Like Gohan and Goten, being half Saiyan and half Earthling, his dormant power is high.
Daizenshuu 2- Story Guide. Growing Up
"As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan possesses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan.
This all implies that the half-breeds have more hidden power/dormant ability than the pure bloods."
Now this is how the Daizenshuu describes SSjin3;
Daizenshuu 7- Dragonball Encyclopedia. Special Attack Dictionary
"The strongest form of Super Saiyan, which draws the hidden power of a Saiyan out to its limits."
So once again that means at the very least SSjin3 Gotenks>SSjin3 Goku.
So the argument is:
- Half-breeds have more dormant power than pure Saiyans
- Gotenks has more dormant power than Goku
- SSj3 brings said dormant power out
- Therefore, SSj3 Gotenks has more power being brought out than SSj3 Goku
I think the supposed strengths and weaknesses in the core arguments on both sides would be easier to spot and compare if people just put them in standard form. Premises and conclusions, and all that. For example:
- Character X did Y
- Character B said R
- Therefore, character L is stronger than character U
Zephyr wrote:I think the supposed strengths and weaknesses in the core arguments on both sides would be easier to spot and compare if people just put them in standard form. Premises and conclusions, and all that. For example:
- Character X did Y
- Character B said R
- Therefore, character L is stronger than character U
I'd be happy too - I'm at work, so it's hard for me to grab a moment.
Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He fought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.
You seem to be missing the point. If Gotenks SSJ ki was just below SSJ Vegeta's ki then Piccolo would have said "You stand no chance against Fat Boo." Instead we see Piccolo say:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Goku is the only character who's been able to fight on equal terms with Fat Boo. If we assume Goku was only fighting at 50% of his power then SSJ Gotenks would be vastly too weak by your own admission that SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta; SSJ Gotenks would be 4+ times more weaker than SSJ3 Goku who was holding his own against Fat Boo. Are you telling me that Piccolo sensed SSJ Gotenks ki and went "Well you are below SSJ Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku was over 4x stronger than you but I still think you can take Fat Boo."?
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri May 03, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hitiro, in France it's 11:30PM, so i'll respond you on that point tomorrow, be sure !
Have a good day guys.
EDIT : Quickly : in your opinion, Gotenks SSJ is stronger than Goku SSJ3 at his first appearence. So that makes Gotenks SSJ2 2 times stronger than him, and Gotenks SSJ3 ten times ! Do you think that Super Buu is ten times stronger than Fat Buu ?
Last edited by BejitaSama on Fri May 03, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BejitaSama wrote:Hitiro, in France it's 11:30PM, so i'll respond you on that point tomorrow, be sure !
Have a good day guys.
Good night.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He fought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.
You seem to be missing the point. If Gotenks SSJ ki was just below SSJ Vegeta's ki then Piccolo would have said "You stand no chance against Fat Boo." Instead we see Piccolo say:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Goku is the only character who's been able to fight on equal terms with Fat Boo. If we assume Goku was only fighting at 50% of his power then SSJ Gotenks would be vastly too weak by your own admission that SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta; SSJ Gotenks would be 6+ times more weaker than SSJ3 Goku who was holding his own against Fat Boo. Are you telling me that Piccolo sensed SSJ Gotenks ki and went "Well you are below SSJ Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku was over 6x stronger than you but I still think you can take Fat Boo."?
Or Piccolo thought that "WOW, these boys powered up a lot, I wonder how much stronger they would be as SSJ?!" You have to remember, while we "know" multipliers, how do you give a feeling (of KI) a number? Even as a SSJ, Piccolo expressed doubt in the boys, and when ManjinBuu changed to Superbuu, he was positve that it wouldn't be enough.
The problem I have with SSJ3 drawing on the hidden potential is that Gotenks' SSJ3 multiplier would be greater than 4. I just like to assume that Saiyans don't have a limit to their dormant power, it just keeps growing as they grow. Half-breeds just have more dormant power readily available. Piccolo didn't know that Gotenks could go SSJ after fusing Amuro.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Gotenks SSJ is expected to be more powerful than Fat Buu, but in the fact, he never fought him. He fought a stronger version of Buu (as Goku), and needed SSJ3. As Goku.
You seem to be missing the point. If Gotenks SSJ ki was just below SSJ Vegeta's ki then Piccolo would have said "You stand no chance against Fat Boo." Instead we see Piccolo say:
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
Goku is the only character who's been able to fight on equal terms with Fat Boo. If we assume Goku was only fighting at 50% of his power then SSJ Gotenks would be vastly too weak by your own admission that SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta; SSJ Gotenks would be 6+ times more weaker than SSJ3 Goku who was holding his own against Fat Boo. Are you telling me that Piccolo sensed SSJ Gotenks ki and went "Well you are below SSJ Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku was over 6x stronger than you but I still think you can take Fat Boo."?
Or Piccolo thought that "WOW, these boys powered up a lot, I wonder how much stronger they would be as SSJ?!" You have to remember, while we "know" multipliers, how do you give a feeling (of KI) a number? Even as a SSJ, Piccolo expressed doubt in the boys, and when ManjinBuu changed to Superbuu, he was positve that it wouldn't be enough.
He never doubted his ki and said his ki is incredible but asked for his speed. Piccolo basically says "Ok ki is good but what about speed?" Piccolo applied Gotenks was powerful enough which is why he comments on the time limit.
I actually have Super Buu 10x stronger than Fat Buu exactly .
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
TheMightyOzaru wrote:The problem I have with SSJ3 drawing on the hidden potential is that Gotenks' SSJ3 multiplier would be greater than 4. I just like to assume that Saiyans don't have a limit to their dormant power, it just keeps growing as they grow. Half-breeds just have more dormant power readily available. Piccolo didn't know that Gotenks could go SSJ after fusing Amuro.
How does that change what I stated? They Fuse as SSJ and they'd be stronger - that's all anyone can assume.
He never doubted his ki and said his ki is incredible but asked for his speed. Piccolo basically says "Ok ki is good but what about speed?" Piccolo applied Gotenks was powerful enough which is why he comments on the time limit.
How else would Piccolo test his power...in a sparring match? Asking for a demonstration of speed is basically asking for a demonstration of power - I don't see a difference.
Amuro Ray wrote:How else would Piccolo test his power...in a sparring match? Asking for a demonstration of speed is basically asking for a demonstration of power - I don't see a difference.
Speed doesn't always directly correlate with power in the series.
See: Burta being around the same power as Recoome and Jheese, but being significantly faster than either of them.
Piccolo also says he may have a chance in his base form... Piccolo stating that he didn't know they could go SSJ when they fused just says that he wasn't counting on them to go SSJ.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
It could possibly be that he wants to see if he's as fast as he is strong, since it's been shown that speed and strength don't necessarily grow at the same rate. He can already sense that Gotenks is strong enough to defeat Fat Buu, but he's not sure if Gotenks' speed has grown to the same tier.
I still wanna ask why Piccolo wouldn't call out Gotenks on being too weak as an SSJ when he called out Base Gotenks right away.
If we go by SSJ Goku> SSJ Gotenks, why would Piccolo and Goku waste time with Gotenks. Why would they put the fate of the earth in someone weaker then Majin Vegeta who didn't stand a chance against Fat Boo?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
BejitaSama wrote:Hitiro, in France it's 11:30PM, so i'll respond you on that point tomorrow, be sure !
Have a good day guys.
EDIT : Quickly : in your opinion, Gotenks SSJ is stronger than Goku SSJ3 at his first appearence. So that makes Gotenks SSJ2 2 times stronger than him, and Gotenks SSJ3 ten times ! Do you think that Super Buu is ten times stronger than Fat Buu ?
I don't believe Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but I do believe he was close to whatever amount of power SSJ3 Goku was putting out when he thought against Fat Boo.
Amuro Ray wrote:Or Piccolo thought that "WOW, these boys powered up a lot, I wonder how much stronger they would be as SSJ?!" You have to remember, while we "know" multipliers, how do you give a feeling (of KI) a number? Even as a SSJ, Piccolo expressed doubt in the boys, and when ManjinBuu changed to Superbuu, he was positve that it wouldn't be enough.
What has this got to do with what I just said? What Piccolo explicitly said about SSJ Gotenks ki is that: "Your ki really is absolutely incredible" If their ki was below SSJ Vegeta's then Piccolo would never have said this. He would have said that they are no match for Fat Boo given SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't beat him and SSJ3 Goku was the only one to fight on par with him. You are missing the point all together. It is clear to see that Gotenks would have no chance in defeating Fat Boo if they were weaker than SSJ Vegeta. But Piccolo never makes this indication so they must be, at least, close to SSJ2 Vegeta. Piccolo would notice such a huge gap in their powers.
Last edited by Hitiro on Fri May 03, 2013 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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