Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
dbzfan7 wrote:I still wanna ask why Piccolo wouldn't call out Gotenks on being too weak as an SSJ when he called out Base Gotenks right away.
If we go by SSJ Goku> SSJ Gotenks, why would Piccolo and Goku waste time with Gotenks. Why would they put the fate of the earth in someone weaker then Majin Vegeta who didn't stand a chance against Fat Boo?
Who else could they have looked to - notice Piccolo didn't endorse him or make any statements in support of the arguement that Gotenks > Buu. He actually never makes any statement in support of this before hand, and none of the guidebooks suggest this either.
Honestly, by this logic, we'd have to assume the boys are actually stronger that Goku, considering he told Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to beat Buu - wouldn't Gotenks have to be more powerful? I think Piccolo is just impressed at the change, just like everyone else was on the lookout, and as impressive as it was, he was still no match for Buu.
dbzfan7 wrote:I still wanna ask why Piccolo wouldn't call out Gotenks on being too weak as an SSJ when he called out Base Gotenks right away.
If we go by SSJ Goku> SSJ Gotenks, why would Piccolo and Goku waste time with Gotenks. Why would they put the fate of the earth in someone weaker then Majin Vegeta who didn't stand a chance against Fat Boo?
Who else could they have looked to - notice Piccolo didn't endorse him or make any statements in support of the arguement that Gotenks > Buu. He actually never makes any statement in support of this before hand, and none of the guidebooks suggest this either.
Honestly, by this logic, we'd have to assume the boys are actually stronger that Goku, considering he told Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to beat Buu - wouldn't Gotenks have to be more powerful? I think Piccolo is just impressed at the change, just like everyone else was on the lookout, and as impressive as it was, he was still no match for Buu.
Piccolo would have immediately called out SSJ Gotenks like he did Base Gotenks on being to weak to fight Fat Boo, but he didn't. Piccolo doesn't even resort to using the ROSAT either. Goku and Piccolo would not put their faith in Gotenks if he was weaker then SSJ Goku. Goku wanted to let the boys do it because he thought they could. He had experience with fusion. Goku wouldn't have bothered letting the boys do it and would have killed Boo himself if they were that pathetic. Goku says with fusion they will definitely win. But at a power level lower then SSJ Goku, he can't. So then we have to say Goku smoked pot before coming to that conclusion.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri May 03, 2013 6:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Amuro Ray wrote:Who else could they have looked to - notice Piccolo didn't endorse him or make any statements in support of the arguement that Gotenks > Buu. He actually never makes any statement in support of this before hand, and none of the guidebooks suggest this either.
Honestly, by this logic, we'd have to assume the boys are actually stronger that Goku, considering he told Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to beat Buu - wouldn't Gotenks have to be more powerful? I think Piccolo is just impressed at the change, just like everyone else was on the lookout, and as impressive as it was, he was still no match for Buu.
And again, it still doesn't change the fact that if we go by your logic Piccolo would have said "There is no way you can beat Fat Boo the way you are now." Did Piccolo ever say that? While its true Piccolo didn't say SSJ Gotenks could beat Fat Boo; SSJ Gotenks would have to be in the same league as a SSJ2 or Piccolo would have outright said they have no chance.
Hitiro wrote:What has this got to do with what I just said? Piccolo was explicitly said about SSJ Gotenks that: "Your ki really is absolutely incredible" If their ki was below SSJ Vegeta's then Piccolo would never have said this. He would have said that they are no match for Fat Boo given SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't beat him and SSJ3 Goku was the only one to fight on par with him. You are missing the point all together. It is clear to see that Gotenks would have no chance in defeating Fat Boo if they were weaker than SSJ Vegeta. But Piccolo never makes this indication so they must be, at least, close to SSJ2 Vegeta. Piccolo would notice such a huge gap in their powers.
So in other words:
- Only somebody above SSj2 tier has a chance against Buu
- Piccolo conveyed that base Gotenks did not have a chance against Buu
- Piccolo in no way conveyed that SSj Gotenks did not have a chance against Buu
- Therefore, nothing conveys that SSj Gotenks is not above SSj2 tier
dbzfan7 wrote:I still wanna ask why Piccolo wouldn't call out Gotenks on being too weak as an SSJ when he called out Base Gotenks right away.
If we go by SSJ Goku> SSJ Gotenks, why would Piccolo and Goku waste time with Gotenks. Why would they put the fate of the earth in someone weaker then Majin Vegeta who didn't stand a chance against Fat Boo?
Who else could they have looked to - notice Piccolo didn't endorse him or make any statements in support of the arguement that Gotenks > Buu. He actually never makes any statement in support of this before hand, and none of the guidebooks suggest this either.
Honestly, by this logic, we'd have to assume the boys are actually stronger that Goku, considering he told Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to beat Buu - wouldn't Gotenks have to be more powerful? I think Piccolo is just impressed at the change, just like everyone else was on the lookout, and as impressive as it was, he was still no match for Buu.
Piccolo would have immediately called out SSJ Gotenks like he did Base Gotenks on being to weak to fight Fat Boo, but he didn't. Piccolo doesn't even resort to using the ROSAT either. Goku and Piccolo would not put their faith in Gotenks if he was weaker then SSJ Goku. Goku wanted to let the boys do it because he thought they could. He had experience with fusion. Goku wouldn't have bothered letting the boys do it and would have killed Boo himself if they were that pathetic.
Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:The problem I have with SSJ3 drawing on the hidden potential is that Gotenks' SSJ3 multiplier would be greater than 4. I just like to assume that Saiyans don't have a limit to their dormant power, it just keeps growing as they grow. Half-breeds just have more dormant power readily available. Piccolo didn't know that Gotenks could go SSJ after fusing Amuro.
How does that change what I stated? They Fuse as SSJ and they'd be stronger - that's all anyone can assume.
He never doubted his ki and said his ki is incredible but asked for his speed. Piccolo basically says "Ok ki is good but what about speed?" Piccolo applied Gotenks was powerful enough which is why he comments on the time limit.
How else would Piccolo test his power...in a sparring match? Asking for a demonstration of speed is basically asking for a demonstration of power - I don't see a difference.
No, he just asked for his speed and not for his power. He says his power is incredible despite the fact he sensed Fat Buu and SSJ3 Goku. Base Gotenks > Piccolo who is > Base Goku
Amuro Ray wrote:Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.
But you do the same thing with your arguments.
Goku has felt fusion before with the metamorese. He has an understanding of the fusion techniques capabilities. You have yet to explain why Piccolo and Goku are okay with a weak Gotenks fighting Boo. What logic dictates Goku and Piccolo are okay with sending a weak kid to kill Boo.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Amuro Ray wrote:Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.
But you do the same thing with your arguments.
Goku has felt fusion before with the metamorese. He has an understanding of the fusion techniques capabilities. You have yet to explain why Piccolo and Goku are okay with a weak Gotenks fighting Boo. What logic dictates Goku and Piccolo are okay with sending a weak kid to kill Boo.
So is this the part I go off on a tanget and make up hypotheticals like Hitiro?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
dbzfan7 wrote:I still wanna ask why Piccolo wouldn't call out Gotenks on being too weak as an SSJ when he called out Base Gotenks right away.
If we go by SSJ Goku> SSJ Gotenks, why would Piccolo and Goku waste time with Gotenks. Why would they put the fate of the earth in someone weaker then Majin Vegeta who didn't stand a chance against Fat Boo?
Who else could they have looked to - notice Piccolo didn't endorse him or make any statements in support of the arguement that Gotenks > Buu. He actually never makes any statement in support of this before hand, and none of the guidebooks suggest this either.
Honestly, by this logic, we'd have to assume the boys are actually stronger that Goku, considering he told Piccolo he wouldn't have been able to beat Buu - wouldn't Gotenks have to be more powerful? I think Piccolo is just impressed at the change, just like everyone else was on the lookout, and as impressive as it was, he was still no match for Buu.
Piccolo would have immediately called out SSJ Gotenks like he did Base Gotenks on being to weak to fight Fat Boo, but he didn't. Piccolo doesn't even resort to using the ROSAT either. Goku and Piccolo would not put their faith in Gotenks if he was weaker then SSJ Goku. Goku wanted to let the boys do it because he thought they could. He had experience with fusion. Goku wouldn't have bothered letting the boys do it and would have killed Boo himself if they were that pathetic.
Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.[/quote]
Goku has knowledge about Fusion and said Gotenks would be strong enough. That's the same like when Elder Kaioshin said Base Gokuhan would be > Gotenks-Boo. No one denied that Gotenks was exactly what Goku said. Saying SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ Goku is being in denial. SSJ Gotenks after the Rosat is far stronger than SSJ Gotenks before the Rosat. Going by your logic, SSJ Gotenks before the Rosat is barely stronger than Piccolo.
TheMightyOozaru: he avoids the question because he has nothing to say. He can't counter the facts we have presented so he denies the truth and this is called fanboyism. Hell, I even warned you all about it. It's freaking ridiculous
Last edited by Undertaker on Fri May 03, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Amuro Ray wrote:Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.
Why does Goku need to be present? Piccolo knows these facts:
-SSJ2 Vegeta < Fat Boo
-SSJ3 Goku >= Fat Boo (From the fight he witnessed which was pretty even and Piccolo thinks that Goku could have won if he tried.)
What Piccolo has surmised:
Fat Boo: between SSJ2 level ~ SSJ3 level
Your assumption:
SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta
Meaning SSJ Gotenks 4x weaker than how hard SSJ3 Goku(Assuming SSJ3 Goku was fighting at 50%) thought against Fat Boo.
What Piccolo would say to SSJ Gotenks if this is true:
Piccolo: "You are much too weak to defeat Fat Boo! Get in the RoSaT now! We still have a day or two!"
What Piccolo actually said to SSJ Gotenks:
Piccolo: "…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little."
Evil Buu > Good Buu
Fat Buu is greater than both
Super Buu > Fat Buu
Kid Buu/Buff Buu > Super Buu
Gohan Buu >Gotenks Buu > Kid Buu
Vegeta > Pre- Gotenks
Goku > Vegeta
Post Gotenks > Vegeta
Gohan > Gotenks
Anything else from here, we have to fill in the blanks -
No statement in ANY media is made about Buff Buu/Kid Buu having a different level, nor is a decrease in power ever noted. This is a fact
Gotenks is said to be stronger than Vegeta - Goku (who is also stronger than Vegeta) is not mentioned. This is a fact
My opinion - Kidbuu is stronger than Superbuu (but this doesn't explain why Goku is afraid to Fight SuperBuu) Besides, why would Buu willingly give up power?
Goku is stronger than Gotenks, nothing is ever suggested otherwise (And yes, I am aware that Gotenks fought Buu, who admitted that he didn't want to beat the boys)
Goku suggest bringing BOTH Gotenks and Gohan to fight - implying both of them were needed, the suggestion was dismissed and never mentioned again. I assume because they were weaker.
Last edited by Amuro Ray on Fri May 03, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Piccolo said Gotenks was the strongest person Buu had ever faced despite facing SSJ3 Goku before. This and any other evidence of Gotenks >>>> Goku is in the freaking Manga. Why are we still debating this when it's been proven so far? Not to mention that my first post shows all the counter argument for those excuses.
Amuro Ray wrote:Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.
Why does Goku need to be present? Piccolo knows these facts:
-SSJ2 Vegeta < Fat Boo
-SSJ3 Goku >= Fat Boo (From the fight he witnessed which was pretty even and Piccolo thinks that Goku could have won if he tried.)
What Piccolo has surmised:
Fat Boo: between SSJ2 level ~ SSJ3 level
Your assumption:
SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta
Meaning SSJ Gotenks 4x weaker than how hard SSJ3 Goku(Assuming SSJ3 Goku was fighting at 50%) thought against Fat Boo.
What Piccolo would say to SSJ Gotenks if this is true:
Piccolo: "You are much too weak to defeat Fat Boo! Get in the RoSaT now! We still have a day or two!"
What Piccolo actually said to SSJ Gotenks:
Piccolo: "…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little."
Actually I KNOW Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta - it's stated in the Guidebook. You're wrong about it, and once more - how do you put a number on a feeling?
Undertaker wrote:Piccolo said Gotenks was the strongest person Buu had ever faced despite facing SSJ3 Goku before. This and any other evidence of Gotenks >>>> Goku is in the freaking Manga. Why are we still debating this when it's been proven so far? Not to mention that my first post shows all the counter argument for those excuses.
Except for we know Goku didn't try against Fat Buu, this really doesn't prove much.
Good Buu > Evil Buu
Fat Buu is greater than both
Super Buu > Fat Buu
Kid Buu/Buff Buu > Super Buu
Gohan Buu >Gotenks Buu > Kid Buu
Vegeta > Pre- Gotenks
Goku > Vegeta
Post Gotenks > Vegeta
Gohan > Gotenks
Anything else from here, we have to fill in the blanks -
No statement in ANY media is made about Buff Buu/Kid Buu having a different level, nor is a decrease in power ever noted. This is a fact
Gotenks is said to be stronger than Vegeta - Goku (who is also stronger than Vegeta) is not mentioned. This is a fact
My opinion - Kidbuu is stronger than Superbuu (but this doesn't explain why Goku is afraid to Fight SuperBuu) Besides, why would Buu willingly give up power?
Goku is stronger than Gotenks, nothing is ever suggested otherwise (And yes, I am aware that Gotenks fought Buu, who admitted that he didn't want to beat the boys)
Goku suggest bringing BOTH Gotenks and Gohan to fight - implying both of them were needed, the suggestion was dismissed and never mentioned again. I assume because they were weaker.
It is debunked in the first comment. Goku mentiong both is just a first thought and listing them both is because they were absorbed again so it's risky. Vegeta knew it and wanted the Earthlings to save the day. Goku says "we did it" when Kid Buu was shown meaning he is weaker. Buff Buu > Kid Buu because the Daiz and Manga state only Dai Kaioshin weakened him. Goku said he would lose to Super Buu because he is weaker which is why he said he could of beaten only Fat Buu
He might've held-back against Fat Boo, but Gotenks Boo was well aware of how weak Goku was. Same with Super Boo.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
No the guidebook says after training in the ROSAT he surpassed Vegeta and the others. It makes no mention of how strong he was prior to his training it just goes on and states Gotenks is stronger than the ladder of everyone to give an idea of how powerful he is at his best. Also Good Buu > Evil Buu? How the hell do you come to that conclusion when he Good Buu gets his ass kicked by Evil Buu?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Amuro Ray wrote:So is this the part I go off on a tanget and make up hypotheticals like Hitiro?
The thing with this debate is, tangents and fan theories are necessary for making sense of either conclusion. The writing in the arc is so bad that either way, you're left with headache and issues that need fan-created reconciliation.
Undertaker wrote:Piccolo said Gotenks was the strongest person Buu had ever faced despite facing SSJ3 Goku before. This and any other evidence of Gotenks >>>> Goku is in the freaking Manga. Why are we still debating this when it's been proven so far? Not to mention that my first post shows all the counter argument for those excuses.
Except for we know Goku didn't try against Fat Buu, this really doesn't prove much.
And no - you didn't counter anything I said.
Yes, I did in the first comment. There are list of counter arguments to everything you said. The guidebook says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta and the other and never said in which form. It also says Goten and Gohan are equals so if Base Goten is equal to Base Gohan so the Daiz refers to Base Gotenks (Post) > Vegeta and the others > Base Gotenks (Pre) > Vegeta
Goku never tried but he was at full power and Gotenks is stated to be stronger.
