Buu Saga Info

[Undertaker]

He might've held-back against Fat Boo, but Gotenks Boo was well aware of how weak Goku was. Same with Super Boo.

He was at full power but never tried. Yes, Gotenks-Boo says Goku is a small fly while he considers Gohan and Gotenks as tough guys.

[Darkprince410]

Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.

Why does Goku need to be present? Piccolo knows these facts:

-SSJ2 Vegeta < Fat Boo
-SSJ3 Goku >= Fat Boo (From the fight he witnessed which was pretty even and Piccolo thinks that Goku could have won if he tried.)

What Piccolo has surmised:

Fat Boo: between SSJ2 level ~ SSJ3 level

Your assumption:

SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta

Meaning SSJ Gotenks 4x weaker than how hard SSJ3 Goku(Assuming SSJ3 Goku was fighting at 50%) thought against Fat Boo.

What Piccolo would say to SSJ Gotenks if this is true:

Piccolo: "You are much too weak to defeat Fat Boo! Get in the RoSaT now! We still have a day or two!"

What Piccolo actually said to SSJ Gotenks:

Piccolo: "…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little."

Actually I KNOW Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta - it's stated in the Guidebook. You're wrong about it, and once more - how do you put a number on a feeling?

It's some form of Gotenks and some form of Vegeta. That's all that's known. As we've pointed out, it's very possible, and extremely likely given the facts, that base Gotenks was weaker than Ssj2 Vegeta beforehand, but once the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, they were able to bump Gotenks' base to above Vegeta's Ssj2, thus surpassing him and fulfilling what it stated in the databook.

Likewise, as I've said, in order for Goku to be more powerful than Gotenks, then you're also saying that you feel that Ssj Goku is stronger than Ssj2 Gohan.

No statement in ANY media is made about Buff Buu/Kid Buu having a different level, nor is a decrease in power ever noted. This is a fact
Gotenks is said to be stronger than Vegeta - Goku (who is also stronger than Vegeta) is not mentioned. This is a fact

My opinion - Kidbuu is stronger than Superbuu (but this doesn't explain why Goku is afraid to Fight SuperBuu) Besides, why would Buu willingly give up power?
Goku is stronger than Gotenks, nothing is ever suggested otherwise (And yes, I am aware that Gotenks fought Buu, who admitted that he didn't want to beat the boys)
Goku suggest bringing BOTH Gotenks and Gohan to fight - implying both of them were needed, the suggestion was dismissed and never mentioned again. I assume because they were weaker.

You're ignoring the fact that Buu goes from Evil Buu being stronger than Ssj3 Goku (stated by Goku), to South Kaioushin Buu being even more powerful than Evil Buu, and then South Kaioushin Buu dropping to a level where Goku was confident he could win. You've been accusing Hitiro of distorting the facts to support his side, but you omitting this fact/saying that he was lying/saying he wasn't referring to his Ssj3 form is doing exactly what you're claiming that Hitiro is doing. There's nothing suggesting that he lied and nothing suggesting that he was referring to anything outside of his maximum battle power as a Super Saiya-jin 3.

[Amuro Ray]

He might've held-back against Fat Boo, but Gotenks Boo was well aware of how weak Goku was. Same with Super Boo.

He was at full power but never tried. Yes, Gotenks-Boo says Goku is a small fly while he considers Gohan and Gotenks as tough guys.

HUH? Where was that ever said- from what we see, Goku needs a moment to go full power in SSJ3, as shown with his fight with Kid Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

He might've held-back against Fat Boo, but Gotenks Boo was well aware of how weak Goku was. Same with Super Boo.

He was at full power but never tried. Yes, Gotenks-Boo says Goku is a small fly while he considers Gohan and Gotenks as tough guys.

HUH? Where was that ever said- from what we see, Goku needs a moment to go full power in SSJ3, as shown with his fight with Kid Buu.

Goku was also alive during his fight with Pure Buu, and was leaking ki due to the transformation. In his fight with Fat Buu, he had a dead body, with unlimited ki.

[Undertaker]

He might've held-back against Fat Boo, but Gotenks Boo was well aware of how weak Goku was. Same with Super Boo.

He was at full power but never tried. Yes, Gotenks-Boo says Goku is a small fly while he considers Gohan and Gotenks as tough guys.

HUH? Where was that ever said- from what we see, Goku needs a moment to go full power in SSJ3, as shown with his fight with Kid Buu.

Goku was at full power when he fought Kid but then his stamina decreased and he got weaker. He said he wanted to go full power again meaning he wanted to wipe him out with a FP Kamehameha.

[dbzfan7]

Again - Goku wasn't present, he knows how it works in concept but never has seen or felt the boys fused, it's just a poor arguement. Your point is no more valid than mine - you believe the absence of evidence is evidence, I believe the opposite.

But you do the same thing with your arguments.

Goku has felt fusion before with the metamorese. He has an understanding of the fusion techniques capabilities. You have yet to explain why Piccolo and Goku are okay with a weak Gotenks fighting Boo. What logic dictates Goku and Piccolo are okay with sending a weak kid to kill Boo.

So is this the part I go off on a tanget and make up hypotheticals like Hitiro?

You say you want evidence and when its given like Goku outright saying he can't beat Super Boo. You ignore it.

[Hitiro]

Actually I KNOW Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta - it's stated in the Guidebook. You're wrong about it, and once more - how do you put a number on a feeling?

Actually, the guidebook never states how Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. So your argument is null here. For all we know the guidebook is saying Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. Whereas before only SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. See where you have this problem by using the vague guidebooks? As Kaboom said earlier the guidebooks were intentionally kept vague because the anime and manga imply different things.

You refuse to tell me why Piccolo who was sensing SSJ Gotenks ki didn't come out and say: "You are not strong enough to defeat Fat Boo." If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. It doesn't matter what the guidebooks say because they are vague. You like saying I'm wrong when you are the one twisting things and dodging the question. If you can't answer the question then I suggest you stop replying to me. I have asked you time and time again why Piccolo didn't say that SSJ Gotenks couldn't win if he was below SSJ Vegeta and all you can do is avoid the question or ramble about the guidebooks saying X or Y so I can't possibly be right.

I want you to give me a direct explanation, simple as. I don't care if you think I'm wrong because the guidebooks says X or Y, because as I have stated the guidebooks are vague and can mean anything. I want you to tell me why Piccolo never said they couldn't win against Fat Boo after sensing SSJ Gotenks ki which you are assuming is below SSJ Vegeta. Its a simple question that even dbzfan7 asked and you ignored the question there too. Possibly because you have no answer for it that makes sense.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Let's look at it from a simple standpoint:

When they're within Boo, Goku mentions that they'll need to return Boo back to his normal form to have a chance. Goku and Vegeta come across the absorbed Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo, which gives them the opportunity to weaken Boo. Goku comments on how much weaker Boo had gotten, noting that his Chi was "a lot smaller" afterwards.

So, Goku did what he thought they needed to do to have a better a chance against Boo; it's right there in the Manga. Goku had a plan to return Boo to his normal form and this plan went well. However, even after noting how much weaker Boo had gotten, he mentions that Super Boo's still more powerful than both of them. What does this mean? Super Boo wasn't weak enough to challenge. Goku's overall plan was a success--he just wasn't expecting Super Boo to still have a power advantage, which he did even after the absorptions were gone.

There's absolutely no logical reason why he'd lie at that point. Unless Goku had a sick fantasy of wanting to join with Vegeta, Goku tells us they can't beat Super Boo seperately. It's stated.

I know many others have reiterated this millions of times, but read my post and try to look at it from a different light.

[Drayenko]

I don't understand why this discussion about Super Buu >>> Goku is still going on. For those who try to counter argue this with saying that Goku was too small and he didn't know if he would return back to normal. Vegetto showed us that size doesn't matter, the ki would be the same.

It is clearly stated in the manga the Super Buu would kill Goku, and even in the anime, I believe.

[dbzfan7]

I don't understand why this discussion about Super Buu >>> Goku is still going on. For those who try to counter argue this with saying that Goku was too small and he didn't know if he would return back to normal. Vegetto showed us that size doesn't matter, the ki would be the same.

It is clearly stated in the manga the Super Buu would kill Goku, and even in the anime, I believe.

When people accept Goku as their lord and savior, then things like this will go on a long time.

[Undertaker]

I don't understand why this discussion about Super Buu >>> Goku is still going on. For those who try to counter argue this with saying that Goku was too small and he didn't know if he would return back to normal. Vegetto showed us that size doesn't matter, the ki would be the same.

It is clearly stated in the manga the Super Buu would kill Goku, and even in the anime, I believe.

Vegetto is the result of a Kaioshin Item so it's the reason why his power was the same since Buu and the gods are incompatible but yes, Super Buu >>>>>>>> Goku

[RandomGuy96]

Vegetto is the result of a Kaioshin Item so it's the reason why his power was the same since Buu and the gods are incompatible but yes, Super Buu >>>>>>>> Goku

Buu and the gods ARE compatible, otherwise Southy wouldn't have boosted Buu to the level that he did.

[Amuro Ray]

Actually I KNOW Gotenks is weaker than Vegeta - it's stated in the Guidebook. You're wrong about it, and once more - how do you put a number on a feeling?

Actually, the guidebook never states how Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. So your argument is null here. For all we know the guidebook is saying Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. Whereas before only SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Vegeta. See where you have this problem by using the vague guidebooks? As Kaboom said earlier the guidebooks were intentionally kept vague because the anime and manga imply different things.

This is ******* retarded. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this - you can't imply something when no implication was mentioned. It's complete fabrication. What if I said - SSj3 Gotenks is only slightly stronger than Vegeta. How could you counter that based on what was said? You can't, so enough of this shit - I'm done responding to it.

You refuse to tell me why Piccolo who was sensing SSJ Gotenks ki didn't come out and say: "You are not strong enough to defeat Fat Boo." If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta. It doesn't matter what the guidebooks say because they are vague. You like saying I'm wrong when you are the one twisting things and dodging the question. If you can't answer the question then I suggest you stop replying to me. I have asked you time and time again why Piccolo didn't say that SSJ Gotenks couldn't win if he was below SSJ Vegeta and all you can do is avoid the question or ramble about the guidebooks saying X or Y so I can't possibly be right.

Because Piccolo hates you, and so does AT. That's why. Otherwise, who knows?!
Your guesses are good as mine - but not better. I've read EVERYTHING you wrote, no matter how much of a headache you give me, and you repeat the same shit OVER and OVER and OVER, even when there is no evidence to support your opinion. There is NOTHING - not in the anime, Manga -guidebooks that mention the South Kaio Power boost, yet you insist on it continually. It doesn't exist - enough. I point out what the guidebook says "Well, that's not accurate" or "it means this instead" twisting its very literal meaning to something the isn't remotely coherent. It's bullshit. Same with Goku and the Supreme Kai's statement about Buu's power going up - again we KNOW Buu got stronger than his former Superbuu form, what do you do - ignore it, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I've been MORE than objective and fair, I have read every single response and tried to be cool, calm, concise, and fair - I'm not getting the same treatment.

I want you to give me a direct explanation, simple as. I don't care if you think I'm wrong because the guidebooks says X or Y, because as I have stated the guidebooks are vague and can mean anything. I want you to tell me why Piccolo never said they couldn't win against Fat Boo after sensing SSJ Gotenks ki which you are assuming is below SSJ Vegeta. Its a simple question that even dbzfan7 asked and you ignored the question there too. Possibly because you have no answer for it that makes sense.

I F*****G DID- I wrote out an explaination that was backed up by the manga and guidebook - didn't even use the anime. Completely ignored.

[RandomGuy96]

There is NOTHING - not in the anime, Manga -guidebooks that mention the South Kaio Power boost, yet you insist on it continually. It doesn't exist - enough

Every time Buu absorbs someone, it boosts his power- Gotenks, Piccolo, Gohan, Good Buu... there was only one time it didn't: with Dai Kaioshin, and that was explicitly referenced in the manga. There is absolutely no reason, other than to wank Goku, that Southy wouldn't add to Buu's power.

I point out what the guidebook says "Well, that's not accurate" or "it means this instead" twisting its very literal meaning to something the isn't remotely coherent. It's bullshit

Kind of like you saying Goku could actually beat Super Buu, huh?

Same with Goku and the Supreme Kai's statement about Buu's power going up - again we KNOW Buu got stronger than his former Superbuu form, what do you do - ignore it, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Here's the very simply series of events that precede Buu's regression:

Goku starts yanking people out of Buu. He says that they accomplished their goal. Then he says that even though Buu has gotten much weaker, he's still way too strong to take on.

Vegeta yanks out Good Buu. Super Buu begins regressing.

Super Buu, having lost his Dai Kaioshin influence, regresses into Buff Buu, the form he took immediately after absorbing Southy. Goku, panicking, says this Buu is even stronger than Super Buu.

Buuoshin regresses into Kid Buu. Goku says "We did it!" (referring to how their goal was to drop Buu's power to a level they could manage), and then says "Now we can finally manage something".

Are you assuming that Goku just suddenly forgot how to sense ki? And kept forgetting for the rest of the battle?

[Amuro Ray]

Kaio Power was said to not be compatible with Manjin buu’s revival. Nothing states that South Kaio was removed from buu – nothing states that South Kaio boosted Buu – kibito makes mention of Buu’s power boost AFTER Goku comments about the “being able to handle it”

But hey, it's just easier to make up things as we go along right?

[Hitiro]

This is ******* retarded. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this - you can't imply something when no implication was mentioned. It's complete fabrication. What if I said - SSj3 Gotenks is only slightly stronger than Vegeta. How could you counter that based on what was said? You can't, so enough of this shit - I'm done responding to it.

If you are going to say this then you can't possibly say I'm wrong. You are basically stating that the guidebook is saying Base Gotenks < Base Vegeta pre-RoSaT yet there is no evidence of that. The guidebook is vague in how it says Gotenks surpassed Vegeta. You were the one who is making assumptions on what is said purely to argue your point.

Because Piccolo hates you, and so does AT. That's why. Otherwise, who knows?!
Your guesses are good as mine - but not better. I've read EVERYTHING you wrote, no matter how much of a headache you give me, and you repeat the same shit OVER and OVER and OVER, even when there is no evidence to support your opinion.

So you admit that you don't understand why Piccolo wouldn't say SSJ Gotenks is too weak to fight Fat Boo is SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta? Well then you've basically argued my point. The only logical reason Piccolo didn't say that is because SSJ Gotenks was powerful enough to at least have a chance of fighting Fat Boo on par or close to it. The evidence is right in front of us. If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta Piccolo WOULD have said something.

There is NOTHING - not in the anime, Manga -guidebooks that mention the South Kaio Power boost, yet you insist on it continually. It doesn't exist - enough. I point out what the guidebook says "Well, that's not accurate" or "it means this instead" twisting its very literal meaning to something the isn't remotely coherent. It's bullshit. Same with Goku and the Supreme Kai's statement about Buu's power going up - again we KNOW Buu got stronger than his former Superbuu form, what do you do - ignore it, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

The fact that every other absorption, apart from Dai Kaioshin, increased Boo's power doesn't count as evidence huh? It is more plausible that Boo got stronger with the absorption of South Kaioshin and Boo thought absorbing Dai Kaioshin would do the same for him than your argument of South Kaioshin had no effect on him and he then absorbed Dai Kaioshin just because he felt like.

And don't tell me that I'm ignoring stuff because it doesn't fit my narrative, your the most guilty person within this chat for doing that. You are the one who believes Goku is lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo without any evidence whatsoever. Not any of us.

I've been MORE than objective and fair, I have read every single response and tried to be cool, calm, concise, and fair - I'm not getting the same treatment.

No, you haven't. People offer you evidence and you either ignore it or twist it around to be in your favour. The "Goku is lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo" is a prime example of you not being objective and fair. If you were being objective and fair you would have said that you accept this evidence but offered more evidence to back up your Pure Boo > Evil Boo claim. You simply haven't.

I F*****G DID- I wrote out an explaination that was backed up by the manga and guidebook - didn't even use the anime. Completely ignored.

Please show me where? I haven't seen it, nor has dbzfan7. The only thing you offered as an explanation is "The guidebook says Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT training." You didn't offer a reason as to why, in your opinion with SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta, Piccolo doesn't say anything about SSJ Gotenks being too weak to fight Fat Boo. You just said above that you don't have a reason why Piccolo didn't say it so I have a hard time believing this explanation even exists.

[Amuro Ray]

I'll just delete what I don't think is worth my time responding to

So you admit that you don't understand why Piccolo wouldn't say SSJ Gotenks is too weak to fight Fat Boo is SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta? Well then you've basically argued my point. The only logical reason Piccolo didn't say that is because SSJ Gotenks was powerful enough to at least have a chance of fighting Fat Boo on par or close to it. The evidence is right in front of us. If SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta Piccolo WOULD have said something.

I can infer a lot of this - I left my opinion out, because sadly on this forum, isn't worth more than yours.

The fact that every other absorption, apart from Dai Kaioshin, increased Boo's power doesn't count as evidence huh? It is more plausible that Boo got stronger with the absorption of South Kaioshin and Boo thought absorbing Dai Kaioshin would do the same for him than your argument of South Kaioshin had no effect on him and he then absorbed Dai Kaioshin just because he felt like.

Actually, that's exactly why. One Kai actually lowers his power when everyone else boost it, Kai's power can't be used to revieve him and no mention of a Supposed "HUGE" boost in power from south Kaio. It's a theory invented by you and it's wrong.

Please show me where? I haven't seen it, nor has dbzfan7. The only thing you offered as an explanation is "The guidebook says Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT training." You didn't offer a reason as to why, in your opinion with SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta, Piccolo doesn't say anything about SSJ Gotenks being too weak to fight Fat Boo. You just said above that you don't have a reason why Piccolo didn't say it so I have a hard time believing this explanation even exists.

Sounds like a personal problem.

[Hitiro]

I can infer a lot of this - I left my opinion out, because sadly on this forum, isn't worth more than yours.

You seem to misunderstand I was actually ASKING for your opinion on why Piccolo didn't say SSJ Gotenks wasn't strong enough to beat Fat Boo if SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta.

Actually, that's exactly why. One Kai actually lowers his power when everyone else boost it, Kai's power can't be used to revieve him and no mention of a Supposed "HUGE" boost in power from south Kaio.

And why pray tell did Boo feel the need to absorb Dai Kaioshin if South Kaioshin had no positive effect on him? Are you telling me Boo absorbed South Kaioshin and then absorbed Dai Kaioshin just because he felt like? You know that Boo likes to tortue and kill his victims don't you? What satisfaction would Boo gain from Dai Kaioshin unless Boo was assuming he'd get a power increase based on the South Kaioshin?

It's a theory invented by you and it's wrong.

And your proof of this? In fact, who give you the right to judge my opinion wrong? Did Akira Toriyama decend down on a nimbus and bestow upon you the right to judge peoples opinions? Its sheer arrogance on your part to be dictating this. You don't even have any proof to back it up. The simple fact of the matter is every other absorption other than the Dai Kaioshin's increased Boo's power. My opinion stands its ground because of that fact. Your opinion that South Kaioshin had no effect whatsoever though has little proof. Why would it be that out of all the absorptions Boo has had only one had no effect? It seems you are just saying this because you don't want your opinion of Pure Boo > Evil Boo to be proven wrong. You aren't being objective at all. You see evidence, you change it so your opinion still stands.

Please show me where? I haven't seen it, nor has dbzfan7. The only thing you offered as an explanation is "The guidebook says Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta after the RoSaT training." You didn't offer a reason as to why, in your opinion with SSJ Gotenks < SSJ Vegeta, Piccolo doesn't say anything about SSJ Gotenks being too weak to fight Fat Boo. You just said above that you don't have a reason why Piccolo didn't say it so I have a hard time believing this explanation even exists.

Sounds like a personal problem.

It seems you are the one with a personal problem, you are arrogant, you come on here dictating people who believe Evil Boo > Pure Boo are just plain wrong and then you call us idiots or foolish when we offer legitimate evidence against your claims. You are either a troll or you seriously have a god-complex.

[Amuro Ray]

It seems you are the one with a personal problem, you are arrogant, you come on here dictating people who believe Evil Boo > Pure Boo are just plain wrong and then you call us idiots or foolish when we offer legitimate evidence against your claims. You are either a troll or you seriously have a god-complex.

You're wrong, deal with it. None of that malarky theory is stated anyplace, and I'll keep calling it crap anytime you post it - because that's exactly what it is. Now debate me on facts - not on bull****.

[Hitiro]

It seems you are the one with a personal problem, you are arrogant, you come on here dictating people who believe Evil Boo > Pure Boo are just plain wrong and then you call us idiots or foolish when we offer legitimate evidence against your claims. You are either a troll or you seriously have a god-complex.

You're wrong, deal with it. None of that malarky theory is stated anyplace, and I'll keep calling it crap anytime you post it - because that's exactly what it is. Now debate me on facts - not on bull****.

Fine then, if thats the way you are going to be about it:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Goku says they are no match for Evil Boo, fact.