Buu Saga Info

[BejitaSama]

You're just playing on words here, I never try to argument in that way before...
You're saying that you don't interprate things, but I think everyboy's here now that you do as mine. It's an interpretation to say that Goku was refering to what he told before in Buu's body, it's because it helps you. He says that they did it just after Bejita says with a smile that Kid Buu is small. That is the fact. They are talking right now about his size. Again, nothing about the Ki. You know, Bejita did the same thing with Perfect Cell. It's classic. Even Goku when he first saw Freeza said "I thought you were bigger, more impressive".

It's also a big interpretation with South Kaioshin, because the manga shows us that energy of two Kaioshin are not compatible with Buu. Babidi said that about East Kaioshin, and Dai Kai Shin is the second example. And it never shows a single Kaioshin could increase Buu's power. This is the opposite. Don't turn the thing the way you want !

And I never said that Toriyama had increased two characters. I said that he made Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu with Kaioshin statment, and that he was obliged to make Goku stronger than Goku said he was to Piccolo. So Toriyama changes nothing, he precised the level of Goku, which was not very clear all along the saga. For lectors, and Toriyama. And I think he don't care of what Goku could said before, he proves it when he assumes that Goku is in fact stronger than Fat Buu. It's not the same thing to say : "I don't know, I don't think he's so powerful" and "I can beat him".

[Mjb1985]

Yes I'm under the impression Buu takes on the traits of the Kaioshins.

South Kaioshin - Burly
Dai Kaioshib - Benevolent

So Buu's Absorbtion of them wouldn't have to be on any similar numerical scale as the Z fighters. Ah and yes my favorite what if. What if Buu absorbed East Kaioshin?

East Kaioshin - Incompetent

Maybe they should have let Buutenks absorb KibitoKai, maybe they could have beat a clueless Buu. Lol.

[Draken]

You're just playing on words here, I never try to argument in that way before...
You're saying that you don't interprate things, but I think everyboy's here now that you do as mine. It's an interpretation to say that Goku was refering to what he told before in Buu's body, it's because it helps you. He says that they did it just after Bejita says with a smile that Kid Buu is small. That is the fact. They are talking right now about his size. Again, nothing about the Ki. You know, Bejita did the same thing with Perfect Cell. It's classic. Even Goku when he first saw Freeza said "I thought you were bigger, more impressive".

It's also a big interpretation with South Kaioshin, because the manga shows us that energy of two Kaioshin are not compatible with Buu. Babidi said that about East Kaioshin, and Dai Kai Shin is the second example. And it never shows a single Kaioshin could increase Buu's power. This is the opposite. Don't turn the thing the way you want !

And I never said that Toriyama had increased two characters. I said that he made Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu with Kaioshin statment, and that he was obliged to make Goku stronger than Goku said he was to Piccolo. So Toriyama changes nothing, he precised the level of Goku, which was not very clear all along the saga. For lectors, and Toriyama. And I think he don't care of what Goku could said before, he proves it when he assumes that Goku is in fact stronger than Fat Buu. It's not the same thing to say : "I don't know, I don't think he's so powerful" and "I can beat him".

So you think "we did it" refers to size and nothing else? Then why is Goku suddenly happy and willing to fight when mere moments ago he tells Vegeta a being too strong for the two of them to fight together got even STRONGER? You're outright ignoring facts and justifying it by giving your own head canon theory that has no basis. Goku lying is completely random and was never once backed up unless your theory is Pure Buu > Super Buu. Which is a theory as proof for a theory, which (I'm not the greatest law enforcement guy, but...) I don't think that works in an argument. "Officer, this guy beat up that guy." "Proof? Another guy admitted it was himself". "Oh he was lying it was this other guy". See the problem here?


And you're very contradictory in that third paragraph. First you say AT didn't boost 2 characters. Then you say he boosted Buu and in turn boosted Goku from previous established levels. Sounds like boosting 2 characters to me. And that theory is, once again, based on another theory, that Goku "lied".

[BejitaSama]

I didn't contradict myself, you don't understand. Toriyama didn't make Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu to justify something , he just end the history of Buu by presenting us his original form, which is stronger than Super Buu. And as he or whoevever wanted to make Goku the final hero, he just made Goku lied to Piccolo earlier by the sentence "I could beat Fat Buu". So, Toriyama already clearly contradicted himself, so I say : why not here too? And I'm sorry, but he had no reason to lie to Piccolo too, he said to him that he wanted that the boys save the earth !That's all.

Because, I remind you again, you' re totally interprating the Souht Kaioshin history to make Super Buu stronger.

[Draken]

I didn't contradict myself, you don't understand. Toriyama didn't make Kid Buu stronger than Super Buu to justify something , he just end the history of Buu by presenting us his original form, which is stronger than Super Buu. And as he or whoevever wanted to make Goku the final hero, he just made Goku lied to Piccolo earlier by the sentence "I could beat Fat Buu". So, Toriyama already clearly contradicted himself, so I say : why not here too? And I'm sorry, but he had no reason to lie to Piccolo too, he said to him that he wanted that the boys save the earth !That's all.

Because, I remind you again, you' re totally interprating the Souht Kaioshin history to make Super Buu stronger.

Exactly, he had no reason to lie to Piccolo, so he didn't.

And your problem is? You're totally interpreting the South Kaioshin history yourself to make Super Buu weaker. Except we have a basis for Super Buu being stronger, a statement by Goku and established precedent.

Whatever, at least you admit Gohan> Pure Buu and Goku lol.

[Mjb1985]

Piccolo should be smart enough to see through Goku's half assed excuse. Goku is not a world class liar here.

[dbzfan7]

Piccolo should be smart enough to see through Goku's half assed excuse. Goku is not a world class liar here.

True. Also the fact Goku was dodging the question with I don't know. Goku was lying because he is a dead guy and he shouldn't be the one to save earth since he is dead. The living should solve the problems of the living world, not the deceased. Goku also lied so people wouldn't get angry at him for not outright killing Fat Boo. In BOG they got angry at Goku watching Birus fight instead of helping. Imagine if Goku said "I could have killed Fat Boo but wanted to let the boys do it."

If were going with statements that retcon and that Goku was stronger later. How about when Goku says a warrior stronger then him will fight Boo.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife)

He doesn't say it when talking to Boo as herms points out, but it was written in a retcon way like Goku saying he could beat Fat Boo when he earlier says Boo is like a ie and if he had gone all out he couldn't have won.

[The Monkey King]

Piccolo should be smart enough to see through Goku's half assed excuse. Goku is not a world class liar here.

But he didn't. Maybe goku's a better liar than we give him credit for.

As for Goku, Fat Buu and Gotenks I think it goes like this:

Ssj3 Goku>>>ssj1 Gotenks(pre)>Fat Buu>Base Gotenks(pre)

Ssj3 Gotenks>>>ssj3 Goku>=ssj1 Gotenks(post)>Base Gotenks(post)>Fat Buu

[Mjb1985]

@dbzfan

Yep that's what I'm saying. Piccolo is way too smart to be fooled. He watched the fight. Anyone watching the fight could see that Goku seemed to be able to take out Buu which is why Piccolo immediately brought up if the strain was the reason he didn't.

In the end Goku tells him no the strain wasn't a problem , I didn't want to try because it's not my job. He just didn't want to flat out admit it and look like a jerk.

No one who reads the story was surprised that Goku later admits he could have beat Fatty.

And I don't think there is anything that contradicts Gotenks > Goku. It's continually brought up too many times for me to neglect it.

[Draken]

Piccolo should be smart enough to see through Goku's half assed excuse. Goku is not a world class liar here.

But he didn't. Maybe goku's a better liar than we give him credit for.

As for Goku, Fat Buu and Gotenks I think it goes like this:

Ssj3 Goku>>>ssj1 Gotenks(pre)>Fat Buu>Base Gotenks(pre)

Ssj3 Gotenks>>>ssj3 Goku>=ssj1 Gotenks(post)>Base Gotenks(post)>Fat Buu

I agree with this sequence. Goku was probably full power sure, but not using all of it and definitely not trying as hard as he could have against Fat Buu, giving Gotenks room to comfortably be above Fat Buu but before RoSaT, below SSJ3 Goku. Then again that retcons Goku's statement that an even stronger fighter will go fight Buu, so maybe fusion is just "that extreme" in our favorite pal Goku's words!

[Mjb1985]

I don't see what contradicts Gotenks > Goku though? Why the need to alter a suggestion that was brought up several times?

[Hitiro]

Because, I remind you again, you' re totally interpreting the South Kaioshin history to make Super Buu stronger.

And you are totally interpreting Goku was lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo(Super Boo). At least we are offering a plausible excuse for why Boo felt the need to absorb the Dai Kaioshin after he absorbed South Kaioshin. If South Kaioshin didn't increase Boo's power or made him weaker then Boo would have no REASON to absorb Dai Kaioshin. You are just saying Goku is lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo(Super Boo) because you want SSJ3 Goku > Evil Boo(Super Boo). There is no other justification for your answer here.

[BejitaSama]

No. I think Kid Buu > Super Buu, so ... I'm not a fanboy man, I just have another explianation than you.
I think I tell everything, i'm not going to pass my life on this subject, we have two different point of view on this. Just disappointed that with all I bring on, you never respect what I say. You take all your time to discredit what I say, but never try to answer to the weaknesses of your argumentation lol.
And for Draken : You're mocking me, you're pathetic. Whatever you think, it's not stated and I'm sure it's awful for you, you have to make everybody agrees with this

And yes, I am interpreting, but I'm based on the first lie of Goku. You, with South Kaioshin, based on nothing. As I said, there isn't any Kaioshin who have increased Buu's power, that's the opposite.

I will troll you to finish : the only clear statment is the anime which takes the risk to put clearly Kid Buu and Goku above. You can think that's a shame, but nothing contradicts it, or at least as there are arguments against your theory. And that's the way that Toei chose.

[Mjb1985]

Goku did flat out say he couldn't beat Super Buu.
Goku looked helpless as Buutenks went to attack him.
Goku was so desperate to gain power that he was willing to fuse with freaking Satan to beat Buuhan.

There's no way I can see Goku > Super Buu personally.

[TheMightyOzaru]

There isn't a way for this to work. There is also no reason to assume SSJ3 Goku > Super Buu.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I don't think I have much more to say on that. Now what's so wrong with Gotenks > Goku ?

[Hitiro]

No. I think Kid Buu > Super Buu, so ... I'm not a fanboy man, I just have another explianation than you.
I think I tell everything, i'm not going to pass my life on this subject, we have two different point of view on this. Just disappointed that with all I bring on, you never respect what I say. You take all your time to discredit what I say, but never try to answer to the weaknesses of your argumentation lol.

I'm sorry but I have answered everything you consider a "weakness" its you who is saying Goku is lying about not being able to beat Evil Boo with no basis. You are basically saying "Goku is lying, because I think Pure Boo > Evil Boo." There is no proof Goku is lying. There is no evidence to state otherwise. Its not the same as when Goku admits he could beat Fat Boo. Goku never admits he could beat Evil Boo. So as far as we know Evil Boo > SSJ3 Goku based on Goku saying he can't beat Evil Boo.

And yes, I am interpreting, but I'm based on the first lie of Goku. You, with South Kaioshin, based on nothing. As I said, there isn't any Kaioshin who have increased Buu's power, that's the opposite.

No, South Kaioshin increasing Boo's power is based on every other character apart from Dai Kaioshin increasing his power. East Kaioshin never says South Kaioshin weakens Boo. Only Dai Kaioshin. Good Boo, Gotenks and Gohan all increased Boo's power. Goku has no reason to lie about not being able to beat Evil Boo. Please explain to me why Goku would lie when there is nobody left to beat Evil Boo and Vegeta has refused to do fusion again?

I will troll you to finish : the only clear statment is the anime which takes the risk to put clearly Kid Buu and Goku above. You can think that's a shame, but nothing contradicts it, or at least as there are arguments against your theory. And that's the way that Toei chose.

I don't understand what you are saying here, can you please re-word what you are saying so I can understand what you mean?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yea I don't think I have much more to say on that. Now what's so wrong with Gotenks > Goku ?

In terms of SSJ or just in general? In general there is nothing wrong with it. In just SSJ, I don't particularly abide by such a notion but I certainly don't see anything wrong with it either.

[Kamiccolo9]

BejitaSama, If you don't mind me asking, what reason could Goku possibly have to lie about Super Buu being able to kill him? He was begging Vegeta to fuse with him in Buu's body, and we know that Goku is obsessed with fair, one-on-one fights (he let Piccolo punch him to make up for Kami blocking his attack, he let Vegeta escape so that he could fight him again, he let Freeza reach his full power, he healed Cell before he fought Gohan so it would be a fair fight, they fight one-on-one in Babidi's space ship; even when it looks like Gohan might lose,Goku and Vegeta do not interfere, Goku doesn't stop the fight between Spopovitch and Videl, he and Vegeta compete to see which of them will fight Pure Buu one-on-one, they do the same thing in the 2008 Special with Aka, he is disappointed with Super Saiyan God because he required help from others to achieve it), so fusion has to be a last resort. It goes against Goku's established character to ask for help from another fighter when he doesn't need it. Yet against Pure Buu, he's totally confident that he can beat him on his own. Even after Buu starts fighting and proves that he's stronger than they fought, Goku is still sure he can win.
So we see that:
Goku is willing to put aside his Saiyan pride and beg for help to defeat Super Buu, who he states would kill him otherwise.
Goku is fully confident in his ability to defeat Pure Buu.
I have tried to stick purely to what is said in the manga and the two recent animations in order to cut down on speculation.

[Mjb1985]

Yea in regards to Ssj Gotenks > Ssj3 Goku. Ok that's cool. Hey you guys might want to tone down your debate. That's a quick way to get this topic closed.