Buu Saga Info

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Kamiccolo9
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:15 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Undertaker wrote:SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku because he was felt from the Kaioshin realm and since it's stated and not contradicted. SSJ Gotenks (Post) is far stronger and SSJ3 Gotenks is in a different league. Gotenks smashes Goku with his nails. People who say otherwise are trolls being in denial.
To be fair, Pure Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta's power when they were in the Kaioshin realm, and they were just Super Saiyans.
He never sensed them as Kaioshin's IT is not based on ki. Not to mention they never powered up. You can't feel them if they are not powered up. Goku and Gohan were felt when they were powered up. Kibiot said only Goku was felt from this distance while Fat Buu was not
Look here Image
You see Buu looking around, then he locks on to them, grins, and teleports. It's Kibitokai's technique, but he still needs to know where to teleport.
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kaboom » Sat May 04, 2013 4:17 pm

BejitaSama wrote:And for Draken : You're mocking me, you're pathetic. Whatever you think, it's not stated and I'm sure it's awful for you, you have to make everybody agrees with this :D
None of this, please.
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:17 pm

Well he remembers where Kaioshin's planet was. It was the last place he was. He's searching for the planet , he's not searching for ki.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:19 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:Well he remembers where Kaioshin's planet was. It was the last place he was. He's searching for the planet , he's not searching for ki.
The planet is in another realm. Why would he be looking around for it? He can't see it, and you can't sense a planet. And how would he know that Goku and Vegeta were there?
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Undertaker » Sat May 04, 2013 4:19 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Look here http://s01.mpcdn.net/manga/p/280/57749/7.jpg
You see Buu looking around, then he locks on to them, grins, and teleports. It's Kibitokai's technique, but he still needs to know where to teleport.
Kaioshin's IT can lead him anywhere he wants without sensing ki. Buu never sensed them which is why Goku mentions how he learned Kaioshin's IT. He never sensed them because they never powered up to begin with.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:20 pm

How did Kibito teleport Gohan and Kaioshin to the planet?

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:22 pm

I know what the technique does. By why would he go to Kaioshin's planet unless he knew they were there? He didn't need to sense their ki to teleport, but he needed to to find them so that he knew where to teleport.
Mjb1985 wrote:How did Kibito teleport Gohan and Kaioshin to the planet?
Because he knew exactly where it was because he lived there. He also did it instantly, without having to search, unlike Buu.
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:25 pm

Kid Buu knew exactly where Kaioshin's planet was as well. That was the last place he was. He saw Kaioshin and assumed they went there.

Fat Buu can't be sensed from that distance. Unless you think the Super Saiyans are stronger than him , there's no way he could sense them.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Zephyr » Sat May 04, 2013 4:26 pm

Some arguments I threw together, regarding the comments made about Kid Buu's size:

1.
- Buu's ki had been increasing just previously, and everyone was in a panicked state
- After he completely becomes Pure, nobody is panicking about his ki
- Thus, after becoming Pure, Buu's ki was no longer a cause for concern
- Therefore, it must have dropped to a combattable level

2.
- Vegeta mocked how small Buu got physically
- Just because he only explicitly mocks his physical size, does not mean that his ki didn't also shrink
- Vegeta is a mean and rude person
- Thus, it would be in his nature to unnecessarily mock somebody for something completely inconsequential
- Therefore, Vegeta only referring to Buu having shrunk physically does not support the idea that Buu's ki didn't shrink when he became Pure

3.
- Goku says that now they can take him
- This means that every point prior to him being Pure, they could not take him
- Such points would logically include:
-- Prior to them fusing to become Vegetto
-- Vegetto himself would be exempt from this for obvious reasons
-- Them being small inside of Buu
-- Them having regained their size outside of Buu
-- When Buff Buu was present
- Therefore, the only form of Buu that Goku and/or Vegeta could defeat without fusing would be Pure Buu

4.
- Goku says that they can now take Buu on after Vegeta mentions him shrinking physically
- This does not mean, however, that Goku was responding directly to Vegeta's comment, and nothing explicitly conveys that he is
- Goku and Vegeta could have simply been making independant commentary on the state of the situation:
-- Goku: "He's weaker? We fucking got this shit now, mang."
-- Vegeta: "Hah, he's short now!"
- Therefore, Goku's comment does not need apply to Buu's physical size

Let's then take the conclusion from each argument above, and form the core argument:
- Buu's ki must have dropped to a combattable level
- Vegeta only referring to Buu having shrunk physically does not support the idea that Buu's ki didn't shrink when he became Pure
- The only form of Buu that Goku and/or Vegeta could defeat without fusing would be Pure Buu
- Goku's comment does not need apply to Buu's physical size
- Therefore, Kid Buu is the wekaest form of Buu and the only one that Vegeta could take, and at no point do the questionable lines that appear to support the flipside support it as concretely as they support this one.

Small addendum:
Vegeta making "the misjudgment of an enemy's physical size" mistake against Cell can easily be attributed to Vegeta's then hot-headed cockiness and not wanting to follow his instincts. There's no reason why Goku and Vegeta during the tail end of the Buu arc would have the same mindset as Vegeta did when Cell first became Perfect.
Mjb1985 wrote:Yes the fan theory consists of the logic that since Kaioshin ki is specifically stated to not be used to revive Buu , while Goku and Gohan's ki is able to , there is a difference there. Which is factual.

Then with the surrounding logic of how Buu's power varies , people put two and two together and wala! A reasonable logical fan theory!
I'm aware that the theory makes sense. I'm simply saying that you can't use a fan theory as a premise in an argument where the only acceptable premises are factual things depicted and/or stated in the manga.
Last edited by Zephyr on Sat May 04, 2013 4:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Undertaker » Sat May 04, 2013 4:27 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:I know what the technique does. By why would he go to Kaioshin's planet unless he knew they were there? He didn't need to sense their ki to teleport, but he needed to to find them so that he knew where to teleport.
Mjb1985 wrote:How did Kibito teleport Gohan and Kaioshin to the planet?
Because he knew exactly where it was because he lived there. He also did it instantly, without having to search, unlike Buu.
He never sensed them so it doesn't matter because only SSJ3 tier and above can be sensed. Kid Buu used the same teleport that Kibito used which is not based on ki and he had to look for it because he didn't know where it was. He was there though.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:31 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:Kid Buu knew exactly where Kaioshin's planet was as well. That was the last place he was. He saw Kaioshin and assumed they went there.

Fat Buu can't be sensed from that distance. Unless you think the Super Saiyans are stronger than him , there's no way he could sense them.
I don't think it has anything to do with power. Kaioshin knew how strong Freeza was, remember? And he also knew about the Super Saiyan transformations. How would he know about those if he hadn't sensed them before? If you're good enough at sensing ki, then I don't think it matters where you are. No one except Buu ever tried to sense into the Kaioshin Realm. What made SSJ3 Goku so special, was that no one was trying to sense him, but they did anyway.
Undertaker wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I know what the technique does. By why would he go to Kaioshin's planet unless he knew they were there? He didn't need to sense their ki to teleport, but he needed to to find them so that he knew where to teleport.
Mjb1985 wrote:How did Kibito teleport Gohan and Kaioshin to the planet?
Because he knew exactly where it was because he lived there. He also did it instantly, without having to search, unlike Buu.
He never sensed them so it doesn't matter because only SSJ3 tier and above can be sensed. Kid Buu used the same teleport that Kibito used which is not based on ki and he had to look for it because he didn't know where it was. He was there though.
The Kaioshin realm is in another universe. You're not going to find it by looking around, and, as I said, you can't sense a planet.
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Undertaker » Sat May 04, 2013 4:34 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Mjb1985 wrote:Kid Buu knew exactly where Kaioshin's planet was as well. That was the last place he was. He saw Kaioshin and assumed they went there.

Fat Buu can't be sensed from that distance. Unless you think the Super Saiyans are stronger than him , there's no way he could sense them.
I don't think it has anything to do with power. Kaioshin knew how strong Freeza was, remember? And he also knew about the Super Saiyan transformations. How would he know about those if he hadn't sensed them before? If you're good enough at sensing ki, then I don't think it matters where you are. No one except Buu ever tried to sense into the Kaioshin Realm. What made SSJ3 Goku so special, was that no one was trying to sense him, but they did anyway.
Kaioshin has his godly ability and can sense anyone, even humans. Hence, why Goku always relies on King Kai for searching foes around the universe. Your point is disproven. :wave:

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Undertaker » Sat May 04, 2013 4:36 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:Kid Buu knew exactly where Kaioshin's planet was as well. That was the last place he was. He saw Kaioshin and assumed they went there.

Fat Buu can't be sensed from that distance. Unless you think the Super Saiyans are stronger than him , there's no way he could sense them.
I don't think it has anything to do with power. Kaioshin knew how strong Freeza was, remember? And he also knew about the Super Saiyan transformations. How would he know about those if he hadn't sensed them before? If you're good enough at sensing ki, then I don't think it matters where you are. No one except Buu ever tried to sense into the Kaioshin Realm. What made SSJ3 Goku so special, was that no one was trying to sense him, but they did anyway.
Undertaker wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I know what the technique does. By why would he go to Kaioshin's planet unless he knew they were there? He didn't need to sense their ki to teleport, but he needed to to find them so that he knew where to teleport.
Mjb1985 wrote:How did Kibito teleport Gohan and Kaioshin to the planet?
Because he knew exactly where it was because he lived there. He also did it instantly, without having to search, unlike Buu.
He never sensed them so it doesn't matter because only SSJ3 tier and above can be sensed. Kid Buu used the same teleport that Kibito used which is not based on ki and he had to look for it because he didn't know where it was. He was there though.
The Kaioshin realm is in another universe. You're not going to find it by looking around, and, as I said, you can't sense a planet.[/quote]

Buu knows where the planet is. He was there. He never sensed anything because he used a teleport that is not related to ki sensing

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:38 pm

Undertaker wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Mjb1985 wrote:Kid Buu knew exactly where Kaioshin's planet was as well. That was the last place he was. He saw Kaioshin and assumed they went there.

Fat Buu can't be sensed from that distance. Unless you think the Super Saiyans are stronger than him , there's no way he could sense them.
I don't think it has anything to do with power. Kaioshin knew how strong Freeza was, remember? And he also knew about the Super Saiyan transformations. How would he know about those if he hadn't sensed them before? If you're good enough at sensing ki, then I don't think it matters where you are. No one except Buu ever tried to sense into the Kaioshin Realm. What made SSJ3 Goku so special, was that no one was trying to sense him, but they did anyway.
Kaioshin has his godly ability and can sense anyone, even humans. Hence, why Goku always relies on King Kai for searching foes around the universe. Your point is disproven. :wave:
Kaio is shown to have telepathic abilities that Kaioshin doesn't have. My point is hardly disproven. Kaioshin's sensing abilities have been shown to be notoriously unreliable.
Undertaker wrote:
Buu knows where the planet is. He was there. He never sensed anything because he used a teleport that is not related to ki sensing
Stop double posting. And if he already knew where it was, what was he looking around for? And why did he react when he sensed something?
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:44 pm

Excellent breakdown Z regarding Buu's size.

One note though. Vegeta did sense Perfect Cell properly. Cell was putting out a fake ki that even Android 16 with his scanner got wrong. So sure he mocked Cell's size , but he also mocked his power. The power Cell was putting out was below Vegeta's. So no harm done to Vegeta's rep there.

And regarding the fan theory stuff , I didn't know I was in a discussion about factual and non factual stuff. I am just giving my opinion lol. That's how I feel about the matter , I never thought it was factual. It's just one fans opinion.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Zephyr » Sat May 04, 2013 4:49 pm

Mjb1985 wrote:One note though. Vegeta did sense Perfect Cell properly. Cell was putting out a fake ki that even Android 16 with his scanner got wrong. So sure he mocked Cell's size , but he also mocked his power. The power Cell was putting out was below Vegeta's. So no harm done to Vegeta's rep there.

And regarding the fan theory stuff , I didn't know I was in a discussion about factual and non factual stuff. I am just giving my opinion lol. That's how I feel about the matter , I never thought it was factual. It's just one fans opinion.
Okay, I see. Didn't realize Vegeta was doing more than stupidly thinking he could win based on physical size alone.

And no problem. I just saw the comment regarding the fan theory, and assumed it was being used as a key premise for why one Buu was stronger than the other.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:51 pm

The guidebooks clear up a lot of ambiguity in the Buu Saga, but not all. Important things:

East Kaioshin is much stronger than Piccolo, which would logically make him low to mid Cell Games MSS tier.

Kibito is about equal to base Gohan.

Kibito is said to be nothing compared to East Kaioshin, further supporting the base saiyans being nowhere near Kaioshin.

Gohan was a SS2 when fighting Dabura.

Vegeta is stronger than pre-ROSAT Gotenks, but weaker than post (duh). Likely referring to SS Gotenks and SS2 Vegeta in both cases.
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He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:54 pm

No problem Z. I used to debate about a guy who considered damn near everything Vegeta said a throwaway line. So I started looking out for it and I started to see Vegeta is generally right about everything. He is an elite warrior after all , he can be duped though. There's generally a reason Vegeta is wrong and it's not because he's overconfident. Interesting stuff. I had a breakdown similar to yours years ago regarding this issue , but I wouldn't be able to find it now.

That's one way of interpreting it. I just don't see it that way.

I don't think Piccolo can sense Kaioshin's ki. No one else can.

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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat May 04, 2013 4:59 pm

@ Undertaker and Mjb1985, the manga never shows nor states Buu fighting the Kaioshins in the Kaioshin Realm. It's just as likely that the Kaioshins sensed Buu causing destruction in the mortal realm, and went to stop him themselves. Buu also couldn't teleport then, so how would he have gotten there?
The anime does show him fighting in the Kaioshin Realm, but if you want to include that, you need to include Buu sensing Goku and Vegeta at SSJ2 as well, which validates the point I'm trying to make.
Mjb1985 wrote: I don't think Piccolo can sense Kaioshin's ki. No one else can.
The new movie states that gods have a special ki that cannot normally be sensed, but remember, Piccolo was once God of Earth. It makes sense for him to be able to sense Kaioshin's power while the others cannot.
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Re: Buu Saga Info

Post by Mjb1985 » Sat May 04, 2013 5:02 pm

That's exactly what I mean. Piccolo due to Kami's previous god ship , was able to sense that Kaioshin was a god , a superior god at that and decided to back out based on that. I don't feel Piccolo could sense his actual power level though.

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