Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Throughout the series mainly in the Z portion(not even going to talk about GT) but it seemed like Goku had MCD. Main Character Disease. Some other main characters got them in other series. Some have a bad-case and some have good cases. Goku would be in the middle. Here's how I rank it.
Goku-Saiyan Arc: Good case. He was the strongest with reason but still had to work to fight VEgeta and didn't brush him aside with ease. His kaioken was the main source of power even to beat Nappa due to his speed. He also needed other character to help him get a tie with Vegeta. By the end of the fight Goku was beaten and torn apart. In the beginning of arc was highly outclassed and did not even get a surprise hit on Raditz. He had trouble with King Kai's Training. - The disease is curable
Goku-Namek Arc: Needs to be treated ASAP. His power during the Ginyu saga was fine since he had 100x training but after Ginyu it got way out of hand. From what I can recall zenkai comes when a saiyan is near death. The way Goku got zenkai in the Namek arc was for the sake of the plot. From what I can infer Goku wasn't that close to death when he got back in Goku's body after being in Ginyu's. I'll say he was close to being koed or unconscious but near death? I would't say that. But when he healed it showed the zenkai was for the plot rather then logical. In this arc Vegeta was literary working for power and getting near death zenkai. I'll say Vegeta went from 23k to over 30k. Then once he healed from Rikum beatdown he was around 300 - 525k since he was able to clash with Freeza. That's still a large amount. It's a 10% - 57% increase. But compared to Goku who wasn't as damage as Vegeta when he fought Rikum went from 90k to 3,000,000 plus the kaioken. Which is a 30% increase. That's only a 27% change in increase but Vegeta worked for it more while Goku was getting MDC. I'm not a Vegeta fanboy. I prefer goku over him. I understand why people prefer if Goku was 300,000 because that's more logical. Even if Piccolo was 1 million or 1.3 million Goku haves kaioken to boast. He also got ssj once Kurrin dies so that can still put Goku being the strongest. The disease is fatal. Other anime character will get a zenkai because it speards lol.
Goku - Cyborg Arc: Decent. Just take pills. His power increase wasn't huge. I'll say he went from 3mill to about 3.5 mill to 4 million. Since Goku was inactive for most of the arc he didn't get a a lot of boast but when he did it was a lot. But this time it's explained due to Goku training method being better then most. I do wonder what type of Zenkai he got after having a virus. That's closer to death then what he had in Freeza arc. Goku plays a mentor-father role while Gohan plays the son-student role during the last parts of the arc. The disease is getting better. He'll be healthy in a weak.
Goku - Djinn Boo arc: Unexplained. I mean Goku was treated like a side character till Akira wanted him to be the hero again and made the main villain weaker so Goku can win. Him getting ssj3 should have gotten a flashback through. Even if it would've been filler. Though I'll say Goku was going to the MCD in Boo also because he started to be a Main Character Jackass. He pretty much said "I'll let the young fight for now". When he have to power to stop people from dying. Boy did that back fire on him. The Earth blow up. Goku didn't even know about Goten. Why would he say "I'll let the fight go to the new generation". I mean I have no issue with Goku passing the torch but Akira should have let the young kill the main villain instead of Goku pulling power at of his ass and goes "I can beat buu at full power SSJ3." "I could have beaten Buu eariler"
The disease is no longer a disease no more. Just an author having favoritism on a character.
I think Goku was more focused on during the original Dragonball half.
Honestly while he did get a lot of focus in Dragonball Z with all kinds of power ups, transformation, new techniques and whatnot, he didn't have much to show for it. He died against Raditz, didn't kill Nappa, almost died again against Vegeta, merely knocked out the Ginyu Special Corps, didn't kill Freeza, was sidelined against the majority of the Artifical Human/Cell arcs, same with the Boo saga except for killing Yakon and then it was all Vegeta's plan, Mr. Satan helping out to defeat the Evil Boo in the end.
It is in his character to be rude and a bit crass. He's a hick, with no formal education. That is Son Goku. That is who he is.
Superman in an orange Gi was the bastard son of FUNimation. Its not The real character, it is as false as Chatku.
DBZ Mick wrote:I think Goku was more focused on during the original Dragonball half.
Honestly while he did get a lot of focus in Dragonball Z with all kinds of power ups, transformation, new techniques and whatnot, he didn't have much to show for it. He died against Raditz, didn't kill Nappa, almost died again against Vegeta, merely knocked out the Ginyu Special Corps, didn't kill Freeza, was sidelined against the majority of the Artifical Human/Cell arcs, same with the Boo saga except for killing Yakon and then it was all Vegeta's plan, Mr. Satan helping out to defeat the Evil Boo in the end.
Honestly though, that's almost what makes it worse in some people's eyes though I bet. When Goku was getting almost all the focus in the early Dragon Ball, at least it was following him and using him a little better. Once you hit DBZ though, it almost literally becomes a game of 'how does Goku get sidelined, how long does that last, and how does he make a comeback from it to save the day somehow in the end'. That's where the complaints about him in Z come from I think.
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DBZ Mick wrote:I think Goku was more focused on during the original Dragonball half.
Honestly while he did get a lot of focus in Dragonball Z with all kinds of power ups, transformation, new techniques and whatnot, he didn't have much to show for it. He died against Raditz, didn't kill Nappa, almost died again against Vegeta, merely knocked out the Ginyu Special Corps, didn't kill Freeza, was sidelined against the majority of the Artifical Human/Cell arcs, same with the Boo saga except for killing Yakon and then it was all Vegeta's plan, Mr. Satan helping out to defeat the Evil Boo in the end.
Honestly though, that's almost what makes it worse in some people's eyes though I bet. When Goku was getting almost all the focus in the early Dragon Ball, at least it was following him and using him a little better. Once you hit DBZ though, it almost literally becomes a game of 'how does Goku get sidelined, how long does that last, and how does he make a comeback from it to save the day somehow in the end'. That's where the complaints about him in Z come from I think.
I guess it's not exactly related to the main idea of the topic, but I'd still like to point this out.
"Zenkai" is not a conscious force. Even though it's described as a near-death power-up, can we really just assume that a Saiyan's body/ki/whatever somehow "detects" when they're death, and then increase the power upon healing up? I choose not to.
The way I see it, it's all about received damage. When a Saiyan recovers from injuries, they get a power boost. Simple as that. The power boost itself may be random, depend on the actual damage that needs to be recovered, or whatever. But it's still about damage to the body. I believe it's also been said that the more Saiyans fight, the stronger they get, implying that even not-so-significant battle injuries/wounds may cause a Saiyan to get stronger once they recover.
hleV wrote:I guess it's not exactly related to the main idea of the topic, but I'd still like to point this out.
"Zenkai" is not a conscious force. Even though it's described as a near-death power-up, can we really just assume that a Saiyan's body/ki/whatever somehow "detects" when they're death, and then increase the power upon healing up? I choose not to.
The way I see it, it's all about received damage. When a Saiyan recovers from injuries, they get a power boost. Simple as that. The power boost itself may be random, depend on the actual damage that needs to be recovered, or whatever. But it's still about damage to the body. I believe it's also been said that the more Saiyans fight, the stronger they get, implying that even not-so-significant battle injuries/wounds may cause a Saiyan to get stronger once they recover.
But a battle power jump from 90k to 3,000,000 is a little non-logical and had to be for the plot.
Perhaps Goku's large Zenkai's'were due to all the massive PLs goku was sensing while healing and his body was trying to Match/surpass those massive PLs.
I thought the Zenkai was preparing him for the Super Saiyan form. He was already close to achieving it. I felt Zenkai's were a faster way to getting a Saiyans body ready for SSJ. After its achieved the Tail becomes useless and Zenkais become practically non existent.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
DBZ Mick wrote:I think Goku was more focused on during the original Dragonball half.
Honestly while he did get a lot of focus in Dragonball Z with all kinds of power ups, transformation, new techniques and whatnot, he didn't have much to show for it. He died against Raditz, didn't kill Nappa, almost died again against Vegeta, merely knocked out the Ginyu Special Corps, didn't kill Freeza, was sidelined against the majority of the Artifical Human/Cell arcs, same with the Boo saga except for killing Yakon and then it was all Vegeta's plan, Mr. Satan helping out to defeat the Evil Boo in the end.
Honestly though, that's almost what makes it worse in some people's eyes though I bet. When Goku was getting almost all the focus in the early Dragon Ball, at least it was following him and using him a little better. Once you hit DBZ though, it almost literally becomes a game of 'how does Goku get sidelined, how long does that last, and how does he make a comeback from it to save the day somehow in the end'. That's where the complaints about him in Z come from I think.
Saiga wrote:I disagree. I feel the MCD strongly throughout early Dragon Ball, as it seemed like everybody else existed just to job and show how great Goku was.
Only person or animals that jobbed to Goku that I can think of is Oolong and Dinosaurs.
Saiga wrote:I disagree. I feel the MCD strongly throughout early Dragon Ball, as it seemed like everybody else existed just to job and show how great Goku was.
Only person or animals that jobbed to Goku that I can think of is Oolong and Dinosaurs.
Not just jobbing to Goku, but jobbing to others so Goku could come in and roflstomp them. Yamcha vs Mummy, Tenshinhan vs Drum, etc.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Saiga wrote:I disagree. I feel the MCD strongly throughout early Dragon Ball, as it seemed like everybody else existed just to job and show how great Goku was.
Only person or animals that jobbed to Goku that I can think of is Oolong and Dinosaurs.
Not just jobbing to Goku, but jobbing to others so Goku could come in and roflstomp them. Yamcha vs Mummy, Tenshinhan vs Drum, etc.
TheGmGoken wrote:
But Goku wasn't on the sidelines 24/7 either.
What does that matter?
Cause that's Goku in Dbz anime and DB Manga(Saiyan arc and beyond) in a nutshell. *Gets taken out of action* returns with a new power or is about to get new power. Fight the guy. Save the world.
TheGmGoken wrote:
Cause that's Goku in Dbz anime and DB Manga(Saiyan arc and beyond) in a nutshell. *Gets taken out of action* returns with a new power or is about to get new power. Fight the guy. Save the world.
And again, what does that matter? Taking him out of the action let the other characters do more until he returned. Plus, that isn't true for the Cell Arc, and it also applies to the Piccolo Daimao arc.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
TheGmGoken wrote:
Cause that's Goku in Dbz anime and DB Manga(Saiyan arc and beyond) in a nutshell. *Gets taken out of action* returns with a new power or is about to get new power. Fight the guy. Save the world.
And again, what does that matter? Taking him out of the action let the other characters do more until he returned. Plus, that isn't true for the Cell Arc, and it also applies to the Piccolo Daimao arc.
Yeah, the "Wait for Goku" moments only worked for Freeza.
He came and knocked out Nappa, but lost to Vegeta shortly after.
He came and knocked out Recoome, but lost to Ginyu shortly after.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
TheGmGoken wrote:
Cause that's Goku in Dbz anime and DB Manga(Saiyan arc and beyond) in a nutshell. *Gets taken out of action* returns with a new power or is about to get new power. Fight the guy. Save the world.
And again, what does that matter? Taking him out of the action let the other characters do more until he returned. Plus, that isn't true for the Cell Arc, and it also applies to the Piccolo Daimao arc.
It does apply in the Android Arc.
He had a heart virus. Return and was about to get another power up.
That doesn't apply to Piccolo Daimao arc because Goku at least fought more. He had 3 fights and was then thought to be "dead" but he was more or less badly injured. Then he went to Korin to take that poison thing for power to face KP. He wasn't inactive and was actually doing something. Saiyan arc was at least explained as he was dead. However Freeza arc was over kill for me. Then Buu arc just made me angry cause he was more of a jackass main character then normal.
TheGmGoken wrote:
It does apply in the Android Arc.
He had a heart virus. Return and was about to get another power up.
That doesn't apply to Piccolo Daimao arc because Goku at least fought more. He had 3 fights and was then thought to be "dead" but he was more or less badly injured. Then he went to Karin to take that poison thing for power to face KP. He wasn't inactive and was actually doing something. Saiyan arc was at least explained as he was dead. However Freeza arc was over kill for me. Then Buu arc just made me angry cause he was more of a jackass main character then normal.
Except when he returns in the Android Arc, Vegeta and Trunks get the power up first. And he doesn't save the day.
I'll agree with you on the Freeza arc, though. That was a bad use of his character.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
