Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Base Gotenks: 800
SSJ Gotenks: 40000
SSJ3 Gotenks: 320,000
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife)
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I don't know if Gotenks has to be that much stronger. And I abide by
Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre > Ssj3 Goku > Base Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Gotenks can be however much stronger than Goku than you want even with that chart. It doesn't appear that Gotenks uses regular boosts imo. He seems extremely off.
Mjb1985 wrote:I don't know if Gotenks has to be that much stronger. And I abide by
Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre > Ssj3 Goku > Base Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Gotenks can be however much stronger than Goku than you want even with that chart. It doesn't appear that Gotenks uses regular boosts imo. He seems extremely off.
It would almost lead one to believe that power levels aren't entirely consistent or something....
Nah, perish the thought
Mjb1985 wrote:I don't know if Gotenks has to be that much stronger. And I abide by
Ssj3 Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks > Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks Pre > Ssj3 Goku > Base Gotenks > Ssj2 Goku
Gotenks can be however much stronger than Goku than you want even with that chart. It doesn't appear that Gotenks uses regular boosts imo. He seems extremely off.
It would almost lead one to believe that power levels aren't entirely consistent or something....
Nah, perish the thought
No way. Toriyama loves to think everything through and plan ahead. His favourite SSJ form was SSJ2 and he never forgot about how it looked.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Mjb1985 wrote:The other guy posted the quote. It's up above. I think Piccolo did grasp Goku's power hence why he wondered why he didn't finish the job.
Eh, Piccolo still had no idea if this was because Goku purposelly choose to hold-back or if it was because his Super Saiyan 3 power was running out. This tells me he was unsure about Super Saiyan 3 in general.
Still, we're shown in the series that someone can be transformed and fighting (Super Saiyan Vegeta Vs #18, in which there was no suppressing in Super Saiyan yet), and still not show what they're truly capable of until they start fighting seriously. I think the same applies here. All Piccolo knew about was what he saw: Goku stalling and not fighting all-out in Super Saiyan 3 and he wondered if he was capable of much more than shown. He was.
Also, how come you have Base Gotenks above Goku? Piccolo's quote?
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Lol. Yea man, I think when you don't bring numbers involved , it's not as bad.
I mean Base Gotenks Post > Ssj Gotenks Pre seems to be clearly displayed. At least to me.
But Goku doesn't seem to be a complete ant to Gotenks and Gohan either. Sure he's not as strong , but he's not a bum you know?
I think a happy medium would just be giving Gotenks small boosts under the guise that fusion is crazy. At least that way you can stick to what the story seems to be portraying.
I didn't bother to read this circle jerk - What I know from what was clearly shown is
Things I know that weren't said:
"You can't suppress SSJX"
Gotenks is stronger than Goku
Gohan is stronger than Goku
South Kiaoshinn Boost Buu's power (or has any effect)
What IS shown/stated
Goku wasn't using full power fighting Manjin Buu
Goku has to power up to full power in SSJ3
Kidbuu is said to be clearly stronger than Superbuu
Goku is clearly on Buu's level
Vegeta's comments in relation to his fight with Buu
But herp derp away with made up information. I'm waiting.
I go by the anime version of the events, so I have SS3 Goku = Pure Buu > Fat Buu > Pure Buu = SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > Super Buu > SS3 Goku > Fat Buu > SS2 Goku > SS1 Goku > Gohan > Super Buu > SS3 Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I go by the anime version of the events, so I have SS3 Goku = Pure Buu > Fat Buu > Pure Buu = SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > Super Buu > SS3 Goku > Fat Buu > SS2 Goku > SS1 Goku > Gohan > Super Buu > SS3 Goku.
I don't think it quite works that way, SSJ3 Goku is actually >> Pure Buu, he was just heavily suppressed the whole time with the drain of a living body making it even harder for him to sustain his full power.
Buu still won the fight and Pure Buu was clearly stated to be on a whole different level than all the other Buus, which would include Buuhan, who actually sometimes gave Vegetto trouble. Also notable is that Goku got bitch smacked by Buutenks while Gohan held his own. This clearly means that SS3 Goku retained all the power of Vegetto after defusing and multiplied that power by 9002. Therefore SS3 Goku = Pure Buu >>>> SS Vegito > base Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > Gohan > SS3 Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Buu still won the fight and Pure Buu was clearly stated to be on a whole different level than all the other Buus, which would include Buuhan, who actually sometimes gave Vegetto trouble. Therefore SS3 Goku = Pure Buu >>>> SS Vegito > base Vegito > Buuhan > Buutenks > SS3 Goku
That's right, my mistake. I forgot the line that where Vegeta mentions "You're better than me Kakarot. You are the best" isn't talking about between Vegeta and Goku's rivalry, but in general. Goku was suppressing himself when he fused with Vegeta to make Vegeta feel better, and so his full SSJ3 power is actually even greater than when he multiplied himself by himself.
Judging by his one-shotting of Gohan as a SS inside of Super Buu's body, he was also clearly suppressing himself the entire saga. He was also lying about him and Vegeta being equals in the same forms, again to make Vegeta feel better. In actuality he could totally curbstomp even Buuhan as a SS2, he just didn't have to release the power of his SS2 until the almighty Pure Buu showed up, as his SS was obviously >>>> Gohan who is >> Super Buu who is >>> everyone else.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Ooooooor or or... We could just say Goku was talking out of his ass . Seriously that one line is the only thing supporting Pure being the strongest Buu, which in and of itself is bull shit regardless of whether you believe Kid Buu > Super Buu.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
No, the narrator, Goku, and Kibito Kai all clearly say it. Therefore Pure Buu >>>> Buuhan. This is further supported by SS Goku being >>>>> Gohan. This is undeniable canon and clearly proves Goku is the strongest character in fiction.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, the narrator, Goku, and Kibito Kai all clearly say it. Therefore Pure Buu >>>> Buuhan. This is further supported by SS Goku being >>>>> Gohan. This is undeniable canon and clearly proves Goku is the strongest character in fiction.
You mean a figment of Buu's imagination... I honestly can't tell if your trolling or are just actually believing the bull crap the anime is throwing your way.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, the narrator, Goku, and Kibito Kai all clearly say it. Therefore Pure Buu >>>> Buuhan. This is further supported by SS Goku being >>>>> Gohan. This is undeniable canon and clearly proves Goku is the strongest character in fiction.
You mean a figment of Buu's imagination... I honestly can't tell if your trolling or are just actually believing the bull crap the anime is throwing your way.
RandomGuy96 wrote:No, the narrator, Goku, and Kibito Kai all clearly say it. Therefore Pure Buu >>>> Buuhan. This is further supported by SS Goku being >>>>> Gohan. This is undeniable canon and clearly proves Goku is the strongest character in fiction.
You mean a figment of Buu's imagination... I honestly can't tell if your trolling or are just actually believing the bull crap the anime is throwing your way.
Methinks you may be missing the point...
I clearly am.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Everyone knows Mr. Satan is the strongest. Goku is a pussy ass bitch compared to him. Followed by Broly because his power is maximum and takes out galaxies..herp a derp #ChurchofGoku
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
. Seriously that one line is the only thing supporting Pure being the strongest Buu, which in and of itself is bull shit regardless of whether you believe Kid Buu > Super Buu.