Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Godo]

Just go on with that, no one should attack you. If they do, remind them where this thread is located.
I myself am thinking of making a list without any official levels at all (or as close as possible).

[TheMightyOzaru]

Yea. I've been thinking about making a list without any sort of baseline for fun. Kaboom said he wanted to make one too. I guess some power level people just take it way too seriously.

Its why I hesitate as I see users attacking others rather then suggestions.

I say go for it. I would like to see your list.

[uzuni]

Hello, all. I've decided to take a first-time crack at a DBGT PL list. Before I go about doing so, I would need some further clarification. Namely, where all the characters are placed in relation to each other. Zephyr had the right idea with his hierarchy list. As it stands, I have SS4 Goku better than Super Vegetto, as stated, and 10x better than SS3 Goku, who is 4x better than SS2 Goku, who is 2x better than SS Goku, and so on. Keeping only Goku's PL in mind, where would the rest of the cast of GT fit? I'm especially curious about the Golden Oozarus, both Goku and Baby. Something like this would put things into perspective:

SS4 Gogeta>>>>>Omega Shenron>>>>>SS4 Goku>...

It would be increasingly helpful if DBZ characters could also be included, as I've already got a PL list for DBZ.

This all stems from the fact that I've never seen DBGT in its entirety, neglecting it in the past because it wasn't canon, or whatever.

[dbzfan7]

Yea. I've been thinking about making a list without any sort of baseline for fun. Kaboom said he wanted to make one too. I guess some power level people just take it way too seriously.

Its why I hesitate as I see users attacking others rather then suggestions.

I say go for it. I would like to see your list.

I also still got a few things to place like where I'd put 19 & 20, The humans, Piccolo before combining with God, sick Goku, Piccolo after ROSAT Training, Babidi's underlings, attack bonuses, and more.

[Mjb1985]

Ok cool. I'm trying to come up with it , just honing down on how my percentage gaps should work.

I think you probably need to be like 98% to fight evenly and then only later during the right does it shown you have a disadvantage.

So Jackie , Tenshinhan , Piccolo vs Goku fights should be around that 98% range I feel. There's not much to go off of except Goku's 416 and Piccolo's 408. It's possible the gap widened or tightened since the 23rd but perhaps that was the gap they had? Seems good enough.

And then I work from there. 95.8% could be Zarbon 23 vs Vegeta 24. Perhaps a sub 96% fight would force someone to not be able to hit the other and lead to domination but you can take a beating for a while.

I'd probably throw Goku vs Yamcha , Vegeta ( Initially ) vs Kaioken Goku and so on. It's at a gap where you aren't completely helpless but you can't really manage much. Cell vs Goku probably is close to that range.

It gets pretty difficult to develop what percentage gap should go for each fight. But that's where I'm at now. It would probably be based to go saga by saga and use a scale of 100 for the highest fighter and work backwards. Do that for each saga and eventually throw it all together. Sounds like a ton of work though. What do you think MO?

[Kamiccolo9]

Ok cool. I'm trying to come up with it , just honing down on how my percentage gaps should work.

I think you probably need to be like 98% to fight evenly and then only later during the right does it shown you have a disadvantage.

So Jackie , Tenshinhan , Piccolo vs Goku fights should be around that 98% range I feel. There's not much to go off of except Goku's 416 and Piccolo's 408. It's possible the gap widened or tightened since the 23rd but perhaps that was the gap they had? Seems good enough.

And then I work from there. 95.8% could be Zarbon 23 vs Vegeta 24. Perhaps a sub 96% fight would force someone to not be able to hit the other and lead to domination but you can take a beating for a while.

I'd probably throw Goku vs Yamcha , Vegeta ( Initially ) vs Kaioken Goku and so on. It's at a gap where you aren't completely helpless but you can't really manage much. Cell vs Goku probably is close to that range.

It gets pretty difficult to develop what percentage gap should go for each fight. But that's where I'm at now. It would probably be based to go saga by saga and use a scale of 100 for the highest fighter and work backwards. Do that for each saga and eventually throw it all together. Sounds like a ton of work though. What do you think MO?

The problem with that is the Vegeta/Dodoria fight. There you have two fighters who are extremely close together, yet Vegeta still stomps him effortlessly.
I like the idea for the saga by saga scale though. I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.

[Mjb1985]

Yea , Vegeta vs Dodoria looks a lot closer to Vegeta vs Cui than it does to Vegeta vs Zarbon. I am ok with Dodoria being less than 22k though so it's all good , man Vegeta vs Dodoria was a stomp.

So why don't you help me? Pick a saga and do it. Might have to make the highest fighter like a thousand or something so you have room. Any saga except the Freeza Saga should be fun.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yea , Vegeta vs Dodoria looks a lot closer to Vegeta vs Cui than it does to Vegeta vs Zarbon. I am ok with Dodoria being less than 22k though so it's all good , man Vegeta vs Dodoria was a stomp.

So why don't you help me? Pick a saga and do it. Might have to make the highest fighter like a thousand or something so you have room. Any saga except the Freeza Saga should be fun.

Dibs on not the Buu Saga Ok, I'll take the Saiyan Arc; that's the one I'm most familiar with. I'll PM you when I have something worked out. It'll be a little while though.

[Mjb1985]

Ok cool

[RandomGuy96]

I think those gaps are way too tiny, because officially 80 vs 100 can still be a fight where the weaker fighter can land hits and potentially win with the right technique. See Freeza vs Goku, Vegeta vs Recoome. In general I always saw it like this:

90-100 percent of your enemy: you guys are basically equal, though you'll be at a slight disadvantage. Skill and technique very important.

80-89 percent of your enemy: you're at a significant disadvantage but you can still keep up. Skill pretty important and techniques very important.

70-79 percent of your enemy: you're not going to do very well, but the enemy just can't ignore you, they can beat you without much trouble but still have to keep on guard. You won't die immediately unless you're pathetic and a defeatist. Skill not very important, techniques still pretty important.

Below that: you pretty much get massacred. Only a really powerful technique and/or teamwork can save you now.

[Mjb1985]

What's the 80/100 gap? Freeza , Goku?

[RandomGuy96]

Yes. Also Vegeta and Recoome.

For an example of gaps on my lists, I have Goku at 14,000,000,000 and suppressed Cell at 16,000,000,000. An 87 vs 100 affair. Cell had a noticeable advantage in strength but Goku was a much more skilled fighter, allowing him to keep up, and he would've won with that Instant Transmission Kamehameha technique if Cell couldn't regenerate. Or if he just teleported below Cell's feet.

For another example, I have weighted Piccolo at 1,000,000 handily beating second form Freeza at 1,100,000 before he powered up to even things out. Piccolo was noted to be slightly weaker in that fight yet he was still winning.

[Mjb1985]

I think you got that mixed up. Piccolo ( Weighted ) was stated to be a little stronger than 2nd Form Freeza ( 1st Power Up )

[RandomGuy96]

You sure? I'm pretty sure that Piccolo was stated to be weaker at some point yet he was still winning.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I also still got a few things to place like where I'd put 19 & 20, The humans, Piccolo before combining with God, sick Goku, Piccolo after ROSAT Training, Babidi's underlings, attack bonuses, and more.

Speaking from experience, I just started from the beginning and worked my way up the first time. Things kinda just fall into place.

[dbzfan7]

I also still got a few things to place like where I'd put 19 & 20, The humans, Piccolo before combining with God, sick Goku, Piccolo after ROSAT Training, Babidi's underlings, attack bonuses, and more.

Speaking from experience, I just started from the beginning and worked my way up the first time. Things kinda just fall into place.

Saiyan to Freeza already is covered for the most part so I don't see a reason in doing it. I would start with Mecha Freeza and move on to Kid Boo as Goku basically botched my ideas of 10 years later with Battle of Gods.

I can't decide if 19 & 20 should be stronger or weaker then Freeza. I also wonder about Babidi's underlings as Kaioshin makes a big deal out of them even though he knows about about Freeza. Vegeta beats Pui Pui (Kaioshin makes a big deal out of him) like nothing even though the Saiyans don't surpass Freeza according to BoG. So that puts the whole minion thing into perspective. Perhaps Kaioshin didn't know full power Freeza or is incompetent.

[Mjb1985]

Yea I'm positive. At least regarding Viz. Vegeta states that Piccolo ( Weighted ) is a little bit stronger than Freeza's 2nd Form after his first power up. I can't recall a time when a weaker fighter was actually winning in a one on one battle.

I generally enjoy doing early DB power levels lately.

[RandomGuy96]

I also wonder about Babidi's underlings as Kaioshin makes a big deal out of them even though he knows about about Freeza. Vegeta beats Pui Pui (Kaioshin makes a big deal out of him) like nothing even though the Saiyans don't surpass Freeza according to BoG. So that puts the whole minion thing into perspective. Perhaps Kaioshin didn't know full power Freeza or is incompetent.

A few things:

1. An often repeated theory is that Kaioshin feared Yakon and Pui Pui for their reputation. Notice how he doesn't say that they're strong or anything, he just says that Babidi gathers the most powerful warriors in the universe, so the saiyans shouldn't be so careless. He had no problem with actually fighting Pui Pui and Yakon, even if he was a sissy about it. He would've one-shotted them.

2. Also remember how Kaioshin seemingly can only sense ki when the plot says he can- he sensed SS2 Gohan's power and wasn't awed or anything, he just noted that he was pretty powerful. Kibito even heavily implied that his power would be nothing special for a Kaioshin (though he was awed, so Gohan's at least stronger than East). So it would make no sense for him to actually care about the likes of Pui Pui and Yakon if he can actually sense them. I mean, if he could, he would've known that they were weaker than or on par with the base saiyans and so SS2 Gohan (or anyone else, including himself) would roflstomp.

3. Kaioshin is confirmed to be a lot stronger than Piccolo, who's likely on the same level as Cell Games Vegeta.

4. The guides say that Kibito is on the same level as base Gohan, and that Kibito is "nothing" compared to the Supreme Kai. So it makes no sense for him to be awed at a base saiyan's power. Again, he couldn't sense them.

5. Battle of the Gods is A. a movie B. contradictory with other movies C. almost entirely gag-based and D. leaves open the possibility that Goku was just suppressed. So nothing about it has to be taken so seriously.

[dbzfan7]

I also wonder about Babidi's underlings as Kaioshin makes a big deal out of them even though he knows about about Freeza. Vegeta beats Pui Pui (Kaioshin makes a big deal out of him) like nothing even though the Saiyans don't surpass Freeza according to BoG. So that puts the whole minion thing into perspective. Perhaps Kaioshin didn't know full power Freeza or is incompetent.

A few things:

1. An often repeated theory is that Kaioshin feared Yakon and Pui Pui for their reputation. Notice how he doesn't say that they're strong or anything, he just says that Babidi gathers the most powerful warriors in the universe, so the saiyans shouldn't be so careless. He had no problem with actually fighting Pui Pui and Yakon, even if he was a sissy about it. He would've one-shotted them.

2. Also remember how Kaioshin seemingly can only sense ki when the plot says he can- he sensed SS2 Gohan's power and wasn't awed or anything, he just noted that he was pretty powerful. Kibito even heavily implied that his power would be nothing special for a Kaioshin (though he was awed, so Gohan's at least stronger than East). So it would make no sense for him to actually care about the likes of Pui Pui and Yakon if he can actually sense them. I mean, if he could, he would've known that they were weaker than or on par with the base saiyans and so SS2 Gohan (or anyone else, including himself) would roflstomp.

3. Kaioshin is confirmed to be a lot stronger than Piccolo, who's likely on the same level as Cell Games Vegeta.

4. The guides say that Kibito is on the same level as base Gohan, and that Kibito is "nothing" compared to the Supreme Kai. So it makes no sense for him to be awed at a base saiyan's power. Again, he couldn't sense them.

5. Battle of the Gods is A. a movie B. contradictory with other movies C. almost entirely gag-based and D. leaves open the possibility that Goku was just suppressed. So nothing about it has to be taken so seriously.

Good first few points. I already Had Kaioshin above base saiyans and Piccolo and have Kibito close to base Gohan as the guide says Kibito would only give Gohan a tough fight.

Toriyama wrote the entire story for Battle of Gods (Watanabe wrote the script). I count Battle of Gods as canon as they said it wasn't a side story and was apart of the DBZ universe. The other mvies are labelled as side stories.

[Mjb1985]

@Random

I disagree. I'm under the impression that your power level is what is going to mostly determine the outcome of the battle. Now sure , there are other factors. But all in all , your power level determines how well you do 95% of the time. And I feel your gaps are too wide.

Goku who is over 16,000 flat out states he cannot defeat Vegeta who is supposed to be 18,000. Goku is over 16,000 yet let's give him the clean 16,000 number for now. That would make Goku 88% of Vegeta. To me , this is a gap that cannot be closed by skill. Goku rather risks blowing himself up using Kkx3 rather than let Vegeta kill him. I just don't see any fighter who is only 88% of his opponent being able to win in terms of pure hand to hand. Using good strategy , tactics and highly amplified ki blasts can give you a chance for sure. But in terms of pure hand to hand , an 88% fighter most likely would not be able to beat a 100% fighter. At least imo.