The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Ditto.

Turles (no fruit) vs Monster Zarbon.

Turles (+fruit) vs 1st form Freeza.

Sansho, Ginger and Nicky vs start of Z Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu.

Raditz vs Saiyan Arc Yamcha

Recoome vs Tien (right after Kaio training)

[TheMightyOzaru]

-Tullece
-Freeza
-Zetto Senshi
-Yamcha
-Tenshinhan

[dbzfan7]

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs 19/20 or both

I wanna hear why some people put the Cyborgs first, and why some put Freeza ahead.

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs Pui Pui or Yakon

Kaioshin makes a big deal out of Freeza and overrates these two compared to the Saiyans who are below Freeza in base. So how do these guys do.

Base Goku vs Yakon

I don't think Goku really needed SSJ against Yakon, he just used it to kill Yakon easily.

How strong are the Humans at the EOZ in comparison to other fighters?

[Kaboom]

Tullece (no fruit) vs Monster Zarbon.
Tullece (+fruit) vs 1st form Freeza.
Sansho, Ginger and Nicky vs start of Z Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu.
Raditz vs Saiyan Arc Yamcha
Recoome vs Tenshinhan (right after Kaio training)

- Goku at "30,000 and rising was pushing Tullece into a corner, but I don't think he was stronger than him yet. I usually put Tullece around 45,000, so he'd hand Zarbon's big fugly butt to him.
- Just for kicks, I actually usually put post-fruit Tullece right at 530,000 just like Freeza (since he beat a KKx10 Goku who'd be something like 350-450 thousand). So this would be an epic battle that could go either way.
- Hard to tell. In their buffed-up states they beat Piccolo the first time, but only by ganging up on him, and then both Goku and Piccolo took them on rather easily later one-on-one (and even two-on-one in Goku's case), so they're considerably behind Goku and Piccolo individually. So I'd say the humans' advantage in numbers lets them edge out a difficult win.
- The only fighter in Z who's more inept and unlucky than Yamcha is Raditz. Yamcha actually wins this one, especially since he's got better skills and techniques than Raditz (stuff like ki-sensing and attack amplification and such).
- Hard to tell from a solid and factual POV. Not counting the infamous filler, obviously, I don't think Tenshinhan was quite up to the Ginyu Force's level yet. He'd be somewhere around 30,000 like Vegeta was when he fought them, and lose just the same.

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs 19/20 or both
Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs Pui Pui or Yakon
Base Goku vs Yakon
How strong are the Humans at the EOZ in comparison to other fighters?

- I'd wager both 19 and 20 are a good chunk weaker than either full-power iteration of Freeza. But they'd only start out that way; if they absorb a half-decent amount of energy, they could catch up to or surpass him pretty quickly. Without absorption, then they could put up a good fight against him working together but likely still lose.
- Yeah, I think Kaioshin was just overly cautious of Pui-Pui and Yakon due to their association with Majin Boo (and as Bobbidi's majin-ized minions, he might not be able to sense their ki, anyway). If he were to actually fight them, I'd say he could flatten either one of them instantly.
- I would guess that Yakon is a little bit ahead of Goku in power, mainly based on Gohan's judgment of the fight. Gohan seemed extra confident that Yakon would be no trouble for Goku, but when the option of Super Saiyan was seemingly taken out of the picture all of a sudden, Gohan thought they'd need to fight 2-on-1 to win. I think Goku, being Goku, might be skilled enough to have a shot at winning alone, though. Odds would be like 2 to 1 in Yakon's favor.
- I figure Kuririn and Tenshinhan would both top out at close to 150,000, and able to give Captain Ginyu what-for. Yamcha might end up around 60,000, and be able to take on multiple Ginyu Force members at once like by Ginyu's original estimation of Goku. Chaozu... who knows. Despite hanging out with Ten all the time, he's always been the weakest of the human quartet. I think he'd probably be able to take on the around-20,000 powers from early Namek (Vegeta, Kwi, Zarbon, Dodoria), at the very least.

[RandomGuy96]

- I figure Kuririn and Tenshinhan would both top out at close to 150,000, and able to give Captain Ginyu what-for. Yamcha might end up around 60,000, and be able to take on multiple Ginyu Force members at once like by Ginyu's original estimation of Goku. Chaozu... who knows. Despite hanging out with Ten all the time, he's always been the weakest of the human quartet. I think he'd probably be able to take on the around-20,000 powers from early Namek (Vegeta, Kwi, Zarbon, Dodoria), at the very least.

I always just place Chiaotzu as exactly 1/3 of Tien, because they did the same training. Coincidentally this puts Chitaozu over Yamcha for me by the Buu Saga.

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs 19/20 or both
Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs Pui Pui or Yakon
Base Goku vs Yakon
How strong are the Humans at the EOZ in comparison to other fighters?

1. I usually just have them around Freeza's 70% power because Piccolo pwned the stronger of them even after he had absorbed a ton of energy. Both of them working together could definitely take normal Freeza due to stamina issues and their energy drain and MIGHT be able to take Mecha Freeza, but not if he has help from, say, King Cold.
2. Pui Pui I think is a lot weaker. He just didn't have anything that proved he wasn't; I plop him around 10,000,000 because that would still make him one of the strongest warriors in the universe and stronger than what Babidi might estimate final form Freeza is. Yakon I have as 100 to base Goku's 75, but I have base Goku surpassing Freeza by far by the Buu Saga. To be precise I have Yakon at 800,000,000, enough to massacre anyone weaker than Imperfect Cell (post-humans).
3. Gohan seemed to think that Goku would need his help against Yakon, which is the only statement we have comparing them. So Yakon.
4. I used to have Tien and Krillin between Freeza's first and third forms and Yamcha in between Ginyu's and Freeza's first form. I've changed my mind about that recently. Considering that Tien stayed at Kai's planet for a longer time than Goku, considering that Krillin's power was apparently rising by the moment after getting his potential unlocked on Namek, and considering that normal Earth training gives relatively modest gains, by the Buu Saga I have:

Krillin- 570,000
Tien- 360,000
Chitaozu- 120,000
Yamcha- 80,000

Krillin got that massive power boost that apparently kept giving him multi-fold increases by the minute, then he trained for the androids, then with his wife. So I plop him around Freeza's first form.

Tien stayed at Kai's longer than anyone else, and given Goku's gains and Tien's potetial I just multiplied his Saiyan Arc power by 30. Then I doubled that during the Android Arc training and gave him decent gains for the seven years of training in the Buu Saga.

Chiaotzu did the same training as Tien, so the gap between them stayed the same.

Yamcha, on the other hand, did the Kai training + android training, but didn't stay longer like Tien and didn't train for seven years straight during the Buu Saga. Giving him similar gains to Goku during the Kai training would put him around 30,000 right after. Then I have hardcore android training doubling him. Then for the rest of his life he doesn't really go through any more training, but I presume he still works out and gets naturally stronger.

[dbzfan7]

- I would guess that Yakon is a little bit ahead of Goku in power, mainly based on Gohan's judgment of the fight. Gohan seemed extra confident that Yakon would be no trouble for Goku, but when the option of Super Saiyan was seemingly taken out of the picture all of a sudden, Gohan thought they'd need to fight 2-on-1 to win. I think Goku, being Goku, might be skilled enough to have a shot at winning alone, though. Odds would be like 2 to 1 in Yakon's favor.

These seem to be the only quotes on the subject

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P11.1
Context: after Goku manages to kick Yakon in the dark
Goku: “You’ve underestimated us too much. Even in pitch darkness, I can easily tell your movements. Through things like the subtle flow of the air…”

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

If Goku could easily tell Yakon's movements, wouldn't that give him an advantage. Though we could take that as Yakon letting his guard down with Gohan's comment saying that if they fight together SSJ won't be needed. Though What level of Kaioken would you say would be enough.

[Kaboom]

I suppose Goku's main point would just be "fighting in the dark won't change anything."

Though what level of Kaioken would you say would be enough?

Oh, just a regular x2 would be plenty. I don't think the gap between them would be very large at all.

[Saiga]

Tullece (no fruit) vs Monster Zarbon.
Tullece (+fruit) vs 1st form Freeza.
Sansho, Ginger and Nicky vs start of Z Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu.
Raditz vs Saiyan Arc Yamcha
Recoome vs Tenshinhan (right after Kaio training)

I think Tullece wins round 1 and loses round 2. I have him somewhere like 40,000 / 400,000 based on a total guess.

There was a pretty big gap between the humans and Piccolo/Goku (like always), so I think Garlic's cronies would come out on top.

Raditz, 20 battle power advantage combined with superior training. Plus there's some guidebook that says that Yamcha will always find a way to job or something like that.

Recoome stomps so hard Tenshinhan turns into a diamond.

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs 19/20 or both
Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs Pui Pui or Yakon
Base Goku vs Yakon
How strong are the Humans at the EOZ in comparison to other fighters?

I think Freeza is stronger than 19/20 with or without his mechanical parts. However, not so much stronger that he could beat them with melee attacks along. He'd lose one-on-one against either once they got some of his energy.

Freeza would utterly destroy both Pui Pui and Yakon.

I think Yakon's between Gohan and Goku, since Gohan wanted to team up but Goku was already toying with him. So Goku takes this.

As for the humans, I'm currently re-evaluating them myself. I currently have them at:

Kuririn - 145,000
Tenshinhan - 95,000
Yamcha - 44,400

Aaaand haven't even been keeping track of Chaozu. Anyway, I think I may have been too generous with them, especially Tenshinhan and Yamcha. Kuririn I'm a little unsure about, he got up to 75,000 thanks to Guru's power up but I don't know how that'd effect him from there on out. After all, the power up was working over time and may have continued after bringing him to 75,000. Some speculate that part of Piccolo's absurd increase is getting the Guru's power up from Nail (I believe Guru used the power up on him), so I guess that'd mean I should put Kuririn even higher?

[RandomGuy96]

Raditz, 20 battle power advantage combined with superior training. Plus there's some guidebook that says that Yamcha will always find a way to job or something like that.

Okay, first of all that difference is barley 1%...

Secondly... superior training? Raditz seems to be one of the most unskilled fighters in the series and has a very easily exploitable weakness on top of that. He got killed by an attack weaker than him after failing to kill two people who were less than 1/3 his power for Kami's sake. Plus he doesn't seem to know about things like amplification...

[Saiga]

He only seems that way due to going so easy on Piccolo and Goku. I don't know about the original, but the Viz manga has Raditz tell Goku "Even if you had the power to challenge me, you haven't a fraction of the necessary training" which is where I got the superior training from. It makes sense to me that a warrior race would hone better skills than Earth anyway. As for ki amplification, it's hard to factor that in. Going off official battle powers it's hard to reconcile Goku's ki amplification with his KK4/20 Kamehamehas later. Assuming that Yamcha can still amplify his ki beyond 1480 I don't see it doing much - 2.2x may sound like a lot on paper, but Goku's Super Kamehameha did jack shit against Piccolo despite being the stronger one. Since all Yamcha has shown is the regular Kamehameha and the Sokidan, I don't see him doing anything worthwhile with them.

[Kamiccolo9]

Tullece (no fruit) vs Monster Zarbon.
Tullece (+fruit) vs 1st form Freeza.
Sansho, Ginger and Nicky vs start of Z Tenshinhan, Krillin, Yamcha, and Chaozu.
Raditz vs Saiyan Arc Yamcha
Recoome vs Tenshinhan (right after Kaio training)

Edit: I think Freeza would win against Tullece. Even if they were at equal strength, Freeza could simply blow up the planet and win. Now, if Tullece were to transform, and if the Oozaru boost and the Fruit boost stacked, he would stomp Freeza.

1. Tullece. I see him around 40,000 ish.
2. I think Garlic's people have this. In the end of the 23rd Budokai, Piccolo stated that all of Goku's friends combined couldn't stop him, and I don't think any of them have improved that much in the years between the 23rd Budokai and the start of Z.
3. Raditz.
4. Recoome takes this with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back.

Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs 19/20 or both
Freeza/Mecha Freeza vs Pui Pui or Yakon
Base Goku vs Yakon
How strong are the Humans at the EOZ in comparison to other fighters?

1. Unless Freeza starts the fight by bombarding them with Death Beams, I think he could take both.
2. Goku. Yakon only managed to surprise him due to the blades in his arms being retractable, and I believe he was still suppressed when they were gauging his strength in Kilis.
3. I don't have any of the humans surpassing first form Freeza. Nothing puts them that high. They are still some of the strongest fighters in the universe, but not really relevant at the level the Saiyans fight in.

[Kamiccolo9]

Vegeta (Android Arc) vs Initial Imperfect Cell

[Mjb1985]

I have Tullece probably at 30,000. I think Goku was starting to overwhelm him.

19 and 20 Is tough. It all depends on how strong Sick Goku is , but I would be ok with 19 and 20 being superior to Freeza even Pre Absorbtion. That's a tough one though.

And yea I agree, the humans ain't squat to Piccolo and Goku at the 23rd Budokai. I don't think the humans are much different than Goku was right after defeating Piccolo Daimao so I consider them all finger flick status to Kami who can't even see Piccolo and Goku's movements. Perhaps Piccolo's " Even a thousand of you couldn't stop me " line holds truer than then thought. Perhaps it isn't just hyperbole.

I'd give the edge to Yamcha. He seems to think he could handle all 5 Saibamen who are supposed to rival Raditz. I don't think Raditz can easily beat all a Saibaman, let alone all 5.

Regarding Vegeta vs Cell , Vegeta seems to make a couple of comments that suggest he is definitely inferior to Cell by a decent margin , I doubt Vegeta can put up half the fight against Piccolo ( Weighted ) that Cell did. Piccolo ( Weighted ) is said to rival the androids so I'm going with a clear chain like this.

17 > 18 ~ Piccolo ( Weighted ) > Cell > Vegeta

[Kamiccolo9]

Regarding Vegeta vs Cell , Vegeta seems to make a couple of comments that suggest he is definitely inferior to Cell by a decent margin , I doubt Vegeta can put up half the fight against Piccolo ( Weighted ) that Cell did. Piccolo ( Weighted ) is said to rival the androids so I'm going with a clear chain like this.

17 > 18 ~ Piccolo ( Weighted ) > Cell > Vegeta

I would put Piccolo over 18. He was equal to 17, who was the stronger of the two. I also don't think that Piccolo's weighted clothes really had any effect on him at this point. Vegeta was putting up a good fight against 18, and some lines could be interpreted to mean that they were really close in power, and 18 won due to her infinite stamina, while Vegeta was getting tired. So, as I see it
Piccolo>~ 17>18>~SSJ Vegeta. I put Cell on roughly the same level as 18 and Vegeta.

[Mjb1985]

I considered that as well. When I read over Piccolo's respective fights, I get the feeling that without his weighted clothing he was a solid margin superior to what he was previously.

I don't think 18 was going all out against Vegeta and she talks about how Vegeta couldn't do anything to her when she sees him Post Rosat.

I think 18 ( Not going all out ) = Future 18. I think Present 18 is a good deal stronger than Vegeta and can handle him rather easily if she wanted to.

[Kamiccolo9]

I considered that as well. When I read over Piccolo's respective fights, I get the feeling that without his weighted clothing he was a solid margin superior to what he was previously.

It's possible, but I personally feel that the total lack of mentioning anything about weighted clothes after the Raditz fight indicates that the fighters are beyond such methods at this point. Later on we see Goku training with 1 ton arm and leg bands in base. Piccolo is much stronger than the base saiyans, even in the Buu Arc, but If his cape and turban weighed anywhere near that much, then there would have been some kinda indication of that when he's casually throwing them off before fighting 17. Honestly, the only reason I think that he took them off is that the cape possbily be a liability in a fight if 17 were to grab it or something.

I don't think 18 was going all out against Vegeta and she talks about how Vegeta couldn't do anything to her when she sees him Post Rosat.

I think 18 ( Not going all out ) = Future 18. I think Present 18 is a good deal stronger than Vegeta and can handle him rather easily if she wanted to.

Again, it's possible, but 17 also seemed to think that if the other fighters joined in, then 18 would lose. Seeing as how ganging up on a fighter never works in this series, and considering that Vegeta was far stronger than every other fighter there, that leads me to believe that the difference in their strength was pretty small.

Also, for Vegeta vs Cell, when we see Cell running from Piccolo, he sees Vegeta and steers clear from him, saying that he was far stronger than he calculated, and that he'd better hurry up and get stronger.

[Mjb1985]

I hear you. I've thought about it from that angle as well. Then I started thinking that hey maybe he's already shown us taking off weights = change in power enough times he doesn't feel it necessary to have to say it every time. Maybe we should just know it by now.

An interesting weight removal is Kuririn on Namek. Have you ever seen that? These back and forths are getting a bit long winded for my tastes so I will wait to discuss Vegeta vs 18/Cell stuf after ok?

[Kamiccolo9]

I hear you. I've thought about it from that angle as well. Then I started thinking that hey maybe he's already shown us taking off weights = change in power enough times he doesn't feel it necessary to have to say it every time. Maybe we should just know it by now.

An interesting weight removal is Kuririn on Namek. Have you ever seen that? These back and forths are getting a bit long winded for my tastes so I will wait to discuss Vegeta vs 18/Cell stuf after ok?

When did Krillin do that on Namek? I don't remember.

[dbzfan7]

I think Yakon's between Gohan and Goku, since Gohan wanted to team up but Goku was already toying with him. So Goku takes this.

Yakon could have underestimated Goku like Goku said in the quote and held back when attacking Goku as he thought Goku couldn't defend himself. It's a plausible theory as to why after Goku gets his SSJ form drained, Gohan says they should team up so SSJ isn't needed.

[Mjb1985]

You can see Kuririn take off his weights twice. Once while heading towards Vegeta and Nappa and once while heading for Dodoria, Zarbon and Freeza while they were wrecking the Namekian villages.