Was Great Ape (GT) Vegeta stronger than SSJ4 Gokuu?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Since Great Ape Vegeta was able to crush him with his hands as a base Oozaru, do you think he got fed by so much Blutz waves that his Oozaru was able to overpower Gokuu's SSJ4 easily?

[TheMightyOzaru]

This is GT, anyone can overpower anyone if the story calls for it.

[MDSTSSJ]

No! SSJ4 is stronger than Great Golden Ape because they must control all that great power to become SSJ4.

The advantage that Vegeta have is the ability to control the Ozaru state.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, Goku was heavily weakened at the time, and I doubt that he would try to hurt Vegeta anyway. So no.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't normally come into the power debates, but this one seemed more story based than just...bickering pandering, for lack of a better term. So -

Well, Goku was heavily weakened at the time, and I doubt that he would try to hurt Vegeta anyway. So no.

- basically what he said, is how I took it. If I recall, Goku pretty much went from fighting (and forgive me, I still can't remember the Japanese names with ease) Nova Shenron, to Eis Shenron, to Eis Shenron while blind, to Syn Shenron while blind, to Syn Shenron proper - all while keeping in his Super Saiyan 4 form. Even barring GT logic, that's a lot of fighting while staying at a higher level of power. I think he'd already gotten a charge from Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Oob prior to this, but that's still a long time of fighting, so Goku had to be fairly exhausted by that point.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Do you think Vegeta's Blutz Waves charge had nothing to do with it, you think? Maybe Oozaru/ SSJ4 Vegeta is a lot stronger than Gokuu because of Bulma's Blutz Waves?

[Kamiccolo9]

Do you think Vegeta's Blutz Waves charge had nothing to do with it, you think? Maybe Oozaru/ SSJ4 Vegeta is a lot stronger than Gokuu because of Bulma's Blutz Waves?

Not really. They had to be equal to fuse, and neither of them are shown or mentioned to be powering down.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I'm doubting it, mostly because there's not really anything to show Vegeta being outlandishly stronger than Goku is once they both are in SS4 form, and this is again with Vegeta coming fresh into the fight whereas Goku's been going for quite a while.

Though it's debatable that maybe Vegeta was briefly stronger due to all of the Blutz waves, maybe. I don't see it as him having kept that power and staying that much stronger though. I'd say that if, and it's a pretty big if, he was stronger than Goku was, it all evened out more-or-less once he controlled the form and transformed into a Super Saiyan 4.

[Lozzenger]

Well going purely by multipliers SSJ4 should be much stronger than a Golden Oozaru.

These are the Saiyan multipliers (basic forms only):

Oozaru- 10x
SSJ- 50x
SSJ2- 100x
SSJ3- 400x
SSJ4- 4000x

A Golden Oozaru is a Super Saiyan Oozaru, it is clearly a stronger form than SSJ3 since Baby-Vegeta toys with SSJ3 Goku, therefore it can't be SSJ+Oozaru, because that would multiply a Saiyan's power by 60. I believe that a Golden Oozaru form= SSJxOozaru- therefore multiplying the Saiyan's power by 500, still leaving it only an 1/8th of as strong as SSJ4.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well going purely by multipliers SSJ4 should be much stronger than a Golden Oozaru.

These are the Saiyan multipliers (basic forms only):

Oozaru- 10x
SSJ- 50x
SSJ2- 100x
SSJ3- 400x
SSJ4- 4000x

A Golden Oozaru is a Super Saiyan Oozaru, it is clearly a stronger form than SSJ3 since Baby-Vegeta toys with SSJ3 Goku, therefore it can't be SSJ+Oozaru, because that would multiply a Saiyan's power by 60. I believe that a Golden Oozaru form= SSJxOozaru- therefore multiplying the Saiyan's power by 500, still leaving it only an 1/8th of as strong as SSJ4.

SSJ4 doesn't have an official multiplier though. We don't know how strong it is.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

Do you think Vegeta's Blutz Waves charge had nothing to do with it, you think? Maybe Oozaru/ SSJ4 Vegeta is a lot stronger than Gokuu because of Bulma's Blutz Waves?

Not really. They had to be equal to fuse, and neither of them are shown or mentioned to be powering down.

SSJ4 Vegeta got smacked around a bit, lost ki using ki attacks. Why should we assume someone that couldn't dent Super 17 as a SSJ could suddenly fuse with someone that did as a child without powering up/ down?

[Kamiccolo9]

Do you think Vegeta's Blutz Waves charge had nothing to do with it, you think? Maybe Oozaru/ SSJ4 Vegeta is a lot stronger than Gokuu because of Bulma's Blutz Waves?

Not really. They had to be equal to fuse, and neither of them are shown or mentioned to be powering down.

SSJ4 Vegeta got smacked around a bit, lost ki using ki attacks. Why should we assume someone that couldn't dent Super 17 as a SSJ could suddenly fuse with someone that did as a child without powering up/ down?

Because Base GT Goku? He's as strong as he needs to be to support the plot.
Being serious now, the Dragon Fist technique has let Goku defeat foes that should have been far beyond him before. I think that the Dragon Fist attack is what beat Super 17, not Goku himself.

[Draken]

Do you think Vegeta's Blutz Waves charge had nothing to do with it, you think? Maybe Oozaru/ SSJ4 Vegeta is a lot stronger than Gokuu because of Bulma's Blutz Waves?

Not really. They had to be equal to fuse, and neither of them are shown or mentioned to be powering down.

SSJ4 Vegeta got smacked around a bit, lost ki using ki attacks. Why should we assume someone that couldn't dent Super 17 as a SSJ could suddenly fuse with someone that did as a child without powering up/ down?

While SSj4 Goku fought all 7 of the Shadow Dragons all day, got battered around far longer than Vegeta, lost ki, his sight, etc etc. And because he got a new transformation that made him much stronger?

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

A transformation fueled by super Blutz waves that were said to be 1,000x stronger than how Gokuu got them before SSJ4.

[MDSTSSJ]

A transformation fueled by super Blutz waves that were said to be 1,000x stronger than how Gokuu got them before SSJ4.

Why? Bulma gave the required amount of Blutz to Vegeta to transforms into the Great Golden Ape, nothing more.

[Nazi Cola]

Episode 36
Time: 12m25s
Context: Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin observe the fight
Kibitoshin: “Apparently, Goku-san has the greater speed.”
Elder Kaioshin: “But as hulking as Baby is, his power has him winning… If he catches him, he’s out.”
Note: In the dub, Elder Kaioshin speaks in a more vague way, saying that the battle could sway either way.

Looking through the rest of the quotes, this seems to be the case - Baby had the power advantage but Goku was faster.

[dbzfan7]

Episode 36
Time: 12m25s
Context: Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin observe the fight
Kibitoshin: “Apparently, Goku-san has the greater speed.”
Elder Kaioshin: “But as hulking as Baby is, his power has him winning… If he catches him, he’s out.”
Note: In the dub, Elder Kaioshin speaks in a more vague way, saying that the battle could sway either way.

Looking through the rest of the quotes, this seems to be the case - Baby had the power advantage but Goku was faster.

Didn't Goku overcome Bebi's strength when Bebi Grabbed Goku.