Hirudegarn compared to Janemba

[RandomGuy96]

I personally think Potara is just barely above the fusion dance, especially when it's Goku + Vegeta.

And I personally believe that even SS2 Gogeta would get bashed to pieces by Buuhan. Normal SS Gogeta would get laughed at and dismissively one-shotted.

[Draken]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Gohan was always shown to have amazing, incredible potential, and went through rigorous, life-threatening (literally) training to achieve the power he had, as well as several months in the RoSaT, which is wayyy more than Goten or Trunks ever went through.

[Saiga]

Not really. He wasn't anything special before the RoSaT training, and even that was mostly Guru's power up and Zenkai. So only 1 year of training is enough to rocket him beyond everybody else, and it's noted that Goten and Trunks have an easier time with such things in one of the Daizenshuu.

[Draken]

Not really. He wasn't anything special before the RoSaT training, and even that was mostly Guru's power up and Zenkai. So only 1 year of training is enough to rocket him beyond everybody else, and it's noted that Goten and Trunks have an easier time with such things in one of the Daizenshuu.

His potential was noted far before the RoSaT training, and he needed a full year of tough training with Piccolo to get to over a thousand. Another year of training by Goku specifically targeting for his son to surpass him in the RoSaT was needed. Goten and Trunks have an easier time yes, but what was their training? Goten messing around with mommy? Jumping cliffs to see dinosaurs? Play fighting with his best friend? They are incredibly strong, that's for granted, stronger than their fathers were a year before their birth, but not as strong as their fathers are now.

[Saiga]

His potential was noted, yes, but he was still nothing. And he got 1,000 times stronger in that year, only half of which was spent with Piccolo.

Goten and Trunks sparred against each other, and have also mastered Super Saiyan. That alone implies they used the forms a lot, and sparring has always been one of the most effective training methods in Dragon Ball. We're even told as much. Furthermore, mastering Super Saiyan increases those gains even further.

[Draken]

His potential was noted, yes, but he was still nothing. And he got 1,000 times stronger in that year, only half of which was spent with Piccolo.

Goten and Trunks sparred against each other, and have also mastered Super Saiyan. That alone implies they used the forms a lot, and sparring has always been one of the most effective training methods in Dragon Ball. We're even told as much. Furthermore, mastering Super Saiyan increases those gains even further.

Gohan had a power level of one?

Their training is still nothing compared to their fathers. Goku is even a little surprised by how... weak they are when they show him their true powers. I don't recall the exact quote, it went something like

Goten : We'll show him what we can really do!

Trunks and Goten go to SSJ

Goku : That's it? So that's your full power huh?

[MDSTSSJ]

Because for SS Gogeta to be stronger than Super Buu, Goku and Vegeta would have to be ridiculously stronger than their sons, who could only exceed Buu with SS3 AND ROSAT training, and even then, the domination they showed over Buu was nowhere near the domination Gogeta showed over Janemba. I have Super Buu very slightly stronger than Gogeta SS as a result. I think Potara is five times greater than the dance myself.

Boo´s Arc and Movie 12 Goku and Vegeta are ridiculously stronger than the kids I think. Movie 12 Goku and Vegeta have the same powers than Boo´s Arc.

I always see the Movie 12 fight between SSJ3 Goku and Janemba like SSJ3 Kakarotto and Super Boo if they fought.

SSJ Gogeta and Janemba fight don´t show almost nothing about SSJ Gogeta´s true power.

The main and decisive difference in terms of power between Potara and Fusion Dance is that the stronger one have to lower his Ki to be on par with the weaker one in the Fusion Dance. For me that´s the only very important advantage for Potara in terms of power. How much is the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta merges? 4x at most.

Something like this:

Base Vegetto = SSJ Gogeta

SSJ Vegetto = SSJ2 Gogeta

SSJ2 Vegetto = SSJ3 Gogeta

SSJ3 Vegetto 4x stronger than SSJ3 Gogeta

[Saiga]

Gohan had a power level of one?

Yes. As Raditz noted.

Their training is still nothing compared to their fathers. Goku is even a little surprised by how... weak they are when they show him their true powers. I don't recall the exact quote, it went something like

Goten : We'll show him what we can really do!

Trunks and Goten go to SSJ

Goku : That's it? So that's your full power huh?

That's not how it went at all. Goku wasn't surprised either way... Piccolo, however, was surprised at their power.

And their training is nothing compared to what their fathers went through... but the same can be said for Gohan.

[Draken]

Gohan had a power level of one?

Yes. As Raditz noted.

Their training is still nothing compared to their fathers. Goku is even a little surprised by how... weak they are when they show him their true powers. I don't recall the exact quote, it went something like

Goten : We'll show him what we can really do!

Trunks and Goten go to SSJ

Goku : That's it? So that's your full power huh?

That's not how it went at all. Goku wasn't surprised either way... Piccolo, however, was surprised at their power.

And their training is nothing compared to what their fathers went through... but the same can be said for Gohan.

Nah I found it.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

Goku wasn't exactly impressed, I don't see the kids being near his power and Goku not being at least a little shocked at a 7 year old nearing his power.

Boo´s Arc and Movie 12 Goku and Vegeta are ridiculously stronger than the kids I think. Movie 12 Goku and Vegeta have the same powers than Boo´s Arc.

I always see the Movie 12 fight between SSJ3 Goku and Janemba like SSJ3 Kakarotto and Super Boo if they fought.

SSJ Gogeta and Janemba fight don´t show almost nothing about SSJ Gogeta´s true power.

The main and decisive difference in terms of power between Potara and Fusion Dance is that the stronger one have to lower his Ki to be on par with the weaker one in the Fusion Dance. For me that´s the only very important advantage for Potara in terms of power. How much is the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta merges? 4x at most.

Something like this:

Base Vegetto = SSJ Gogeta

SSJ Vegetto = SSJ2 Gogeta

SSJ2 Vegetto = SSJ3 Gogeta

SSJ3 Vegetto 4x stronger than SSJ3 Gogeta

How do you have base = SSJ but SSJ = SSJ2? O_o. Unless you use your own multipliers for fusion, in which case do tell.

[Saiga]

As I said, he wasn't surprised either way.

[Draken]

As I said, he wasn't surprised either way.

Right. So I don't see the kids being as close to Goku as many would believe.

[Saiga]

As I said, he wasn't surprised either way.

Right. So I don't see the kids being as close to Goku as many would believe.

How? It just means their full power was in the range he expected. If he already expected them to be close to him, then they wouldn't surprise him being being close to him.

I only think they're just over 1/3 of his strength, and I can't see that necessitating surprise from him.

[Kamiccolo9]

Nah I found it.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

Goku wasn't exactly impressed, I don't see the kids being near his power and Goku not being at least a little shocked at a 7 year old nearing his power.

Another possible explanation is that Goku was expecting them to be that strong. He did see them fight as Super Saiyans in the Budokai. If he'd already seen them powered up once, it's entirely possible that he wouldn't be suprised a second time.

[MDSTSSJ]

How do you have base = SSJ but SSJ = SSJ2? O_o. Unless you use your own multipliers for fusion, in which case do tell.

Oh yeah, you are right. That´s my own personal multipliers differences between Potara and Fusion Dance.

[Draken]

As I said, he wasn't surprised either way.

Right. So I don't see the kids being as close to Goku as many would believe.

How? It just means their full power was in the range he expected. If he already expected them to be close to him, then they wouldn't surprise him being being close to him.

I only think they're just over 1/3 of his strength, and I can't see that necessitating surprise from him.

Goku at 7 was like 10, Gohan at 7... I think like a couple hundred k? Then suddenly Goten comes in at hundreds of millions. I don't see that, especially with what the JUMP Special showed us lol.

[Saiga]

I don't take the Jump special into account.

And Goku had a battle power of 10 at 12 years old. 7 year old Gohan was over 200,000 - possibly in the millions because of his Zenkai. So he's over 20,000 times stronger than an older version of his father, and gets even stronger when he gets angry.

[Draken]

I don't take the Jump special into account.

And Goku had a battle power of 10 at 12 years old. 7 year old Gohan was over 200,000 - possibly in the millions because of his Zenkai. So he's over 20,000 times stronger than an older version of his father, and gets even stronger when he gets angry.

Well if you choose what you take and don't take into account, then I'm gonna have to go back to my previous statement of "agree to disagree".

[Saiga]

All I take into account is the manga and relevant guidebooks. You're kind of hypocritical to say that while also saying the anime/GT is inconsistent in the BoG thread.

[Draken]

All I take into account is the manga and relevant guidebooks. You're kind of hypocritical to say that while also saying the anime/GT is inconsistent in the BoG thread.

Isn't the JUMP Special said to be in the manga's continuity? Or did I totally misread that . I assume you take into account BoG, from the base saiyans thing, which is in the manga's continuity, so you're saying the same thing.

[Saiga]

Nothing is ever said about the Jump Special's place in continuity. Tarble is referenced in BoG but I don't take that into consideration either. The "official history" stuff is way too vague.