Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
B wrote:The Buu arc is everything anti-fans accuse the series of being overall, except on purpose. It's without a doubt the best ending DB could have hoped for, taking into account everything that comes before(because it doesn't work without everything that comes before it). To imagine alternatives like Gohan or Vegeta defeating Buu, or giving it a more serious tone, couldn't sound more boring to me. Toriyama is poking fun at his own series in a way that only someone so detached from what he's created can
Good way to put it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I wish people would quit whining about Gohan when he had his shot above all others. There's a reason why he "got the shaft" and it's because nobody bought him as a competent main character and Goku is eons better.
Seriously, he had the Cell Games and ended the series as the strongest unfused fighter in the entirety of the story. Enough is enough, stop crying about it.
Vice wrote:I wish people would quit whining about Gohan when he had his shot above all others. There's a reason why he "got the shaft" and it's because nobody bought him as a competent main character and Goku is eons better.
Seriously, he had the Cell Games and ended the series as the strongest unfused fighter in the entirety of the story. Enough is enough, stop crying about it.
Don't got to be a jerk about it. I'm not saying to change the ending. Gohan only started to suck because Toriyama randomly made him into too much of a pacifist. His Freeza saga personality is what he should have kept so then he wouldn't have got the shaft.
I guess if Goku is eons better you must really have enjoyed GT then
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
And yes, Goku is eons better as a character than Gohan.
I don't see that. He is just a happy go lucky character who fights since he finds it fun and pretty much hasn't changed since day 1
You should watch GT, its up your alley and all Goku centric.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Buu is a mere clusterfuck but makes up for it with character development and humor. Sadly this arc is probably my least favorite but I still enjoy it.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Hands down my favorite arc in the series. My girlfriend's as well.
That said, this only applies to the anime version. I've actually never read the original -- I've heard this is one of the few arcs or possibly only arc improved by Toei's adaptation, which I could definitely see.
The fights are more generally fleshed out in the anime, although the filler with Dabura chilling with the girls in the afterlife was a bit too much.
Plotwise, Buu arc is the probably among the worst, and its poorly written. But its entertaining as hell, and I love the Kid Buu section (hence the username). Goku and Vegeta had great chemistry in that arc, a non-overpowered Saiyan is productive in it (Mr. Satan), and I loved the concept of the universe working together to beat a villain.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
dbzfan7 wrote:
I don't see that. He is just a happy go lucky character who fights since he finds it fun and pretty much hasn't changed since day 1
You should watch GT, its up your alley and all Goku centric.
It's also considered absolutely awful and everything I hated about the Buu Arc amped up to 11 so, yeah, no thanks.
Some people really enjoy it. I thought that Baby was an interesting villian, and the Shadow Dragons were a cool concept (overuse of the Dragonballs having negative consequences.) I would suggest watching it at least once, just to see for yourself.
dbzfan7 wrote:
I don't see that. He is just a happy go lucky character who fights since he finds it fun and pretty much hasn't changed since day 1
You should watch GT, its up your alley and all Goku centric.
It's also considered absolutely awful and everything I hated about the Buu Arc amped up to 11 so, yeah, no thanks.
Yeah its also focused on Goku only who is eons better than Gohan, why hate a series that has such a great character be the complete focus.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I did find it a bit strange that Spopovitch seemed that he was hyped to be a villain, but was brushed away really fast. I probably would have merged his character with Dabura's.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
Vice wrote:I wish people would quit whining about Gohan when he had his shot above all others. There's a reason why he "got the shaft" and it's because nobody bought him as a competent main character and Goku is eons better.
Seriously, he had the Cell Games and ended the series as the strongest unfused fighter in the entirety of the story. Enough is enough, stop crying about it.
This is entirely untrue. Gohan was leading popularity polls at the end of the Cell Games/start of the Boo arc so it's not that nobody bought him as a competent main character.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
One good thing about the Buu Saga: Super Buu was the best villain in Z.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I like certain aspects of the Buu Arc, such as Buu himself, Majin Vegeta, and pretty much everything up till Super Buu. I do however despise Goten and Trunks, and especially Gotenks. So the Gotenks Super Buu fight wore on my nerves very quickly. But it picked up towards the end, with Gohan vs Buutenks being one of my favorite fights, especially in the anime. And Vegeto is awesome. It's probably my fourth favorite Arc, behind the Freeza, Saiyan, and 23rd Budokai Arcs.
In the anime? Oh, hell yeah. After Gohan takes up Goku's mantle at the Cell Games, the Boo arc caps everything off by finally telling Goku and Vegeta's story. I understand those who feel Gohan and the next generation got hosed (and it is unusually cynical for DB to essentially tell a story about the legacy heroes being fuck-ups who need their elders to bail them out), but if you ignore all that stuff and look at it as the story of the Saiyan "brothers" reconciling, you'll find some of the best storytelling in the series.
The big problem is that the Boo saga's middle focuses on the hybrids, when logically it should follow Goku's attempts to "rescue" Vegeta from the afterlife. One of the reasons Goku's dub appeal to Vegeta to forget their old "birthrights" and embrace their new life on earth works so well is that it does some of the character work that should've been done in the middle act of the arc. The hybrids don't have much place in the narrative; Gohan's whole hidden power/succession story was already played out to its logical conclusion at the Cell Games.
This is all clearer in Movie 12 (where Gohan and the kids are wisely sidelined so we can have a Vegeta/Goku story with a beginning, middle, and end), but when Goku and Vegeta are actually on screen, it's better in the anime.
