Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:If Gohan was so much stronger than Cell, then he wouldn't have been nearly killed by one blast that Cell didn't even put any effort into. I mean as it stands SS2 Gohan has NO feats that put him above SPC... he got nearly killed with one blast and then lost a beam struggle. It's only because of Vegeta that the solar system didn't blow up right there.
He wasn't nearly killed, and it was an unguarded attack made by someone who is on the same tier of strength. In a series where we see unguarded attacks by weaker characters send vastly stronger opponents flying, I see no reason to assume that Cell was as strong as Gohan since he managed to incapacitate his arm.
And who is to say that there was no effort put into it? Freeza's Death Beams are some of the most casual looking attacks in the series, but they are still lethal.
I subscribe to the theory that Gohan's SSJ2 power was enhanced by one of his rage boosts, and that this is what made him so much stronger than Super Perfect Cell. If it was just "normal" SSJ2 Gohan and Cell, I would say they were roughly even, with Cell having the edge.
It's more like the other way around. Cell has no feats that put him above Gohan. His blast hit Gohan off guard and it was intended to be enough to kill Vegeta. Anything about how much effort Cell put into it is based on absolutely nothing. We see that he's only barely overcoming Gohan's blast with his own, despite Gohan being injured and only using one arm. Can't say things are in Cell's favour here, Goku even says Gohan wasn't using his full power.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
This Super Perfect Cell states he has powered up like Gohan. He has traits that resemble Gohan. And even Gohan admits to underestimating him. I personally wouldn't have the gap between them much bigger or smaller than every other arc ending battle.
Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan, Piccolo Daimao, Piccolo Junior,100% Freeza vs Goku's respective power for each saga should be the baseline here.
All of those battles were very, very close. Imo, Cell and Gohan wouldn't be any different.
Also, there's nothing in the manga that says you can't use a full powered ki amplified attack because you are injured. I could go in more detail about a theory I proposed about how ki blasts work if you guys would like but it would make this post too long winded.
No I'm under the impression that Gohan is indeed less than half power as stated due to his injury yet he's still holding back his full power ( in ki blast form ) because he's afraid to destroy the Earth as Goku suggests.
I don't think Gohan can regain his power he has lost through injury, but I don't think that effects him in regards of his ki blast power.
Mjb1985 wrote:No I'm under the impression that Gohan is indeed less than half power as stated due to his injury yet he's still holding back his full power ( in ki blast form ) because he's afraid to destroy the Earth as Goku suggests.
I don't think Gohan can regain his power he has lost through injury, but I don't think that effects him in regards of his ki blast power.
Oh ok, my mistake.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Freeza vs Kibito
Mecha Freeza vs Kibito
Kibito gets ass raped twice. If between EoZ and Buu Saga Goku = less than Freeza and Kibito was said to be a good challenge for Gohan, then Kibito gets destroyed by Freeza/Mecha.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Freeza vs Kibito
Mecha Freeza vs Kibito
Kibito gets ass raped twice. If between EoZ and Buu Saga Goku = less than Freeza and Kibito was said to be a good challenge for Gohan, then Kibito gets destroyed by Freeza/Mecha.
Yep. Kibito doesn't stand a chance.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Ok, new idea.
Base Goku (Movie 5) vs Base Goku (Buu Arc)
I think that M5 Goku has this. He was stated to rival Freeza in base, while BOG states that the base Saiyans were weaker than Freeza, and BOG is often assigned to the manga continuity.
Battle of the Gods has no real bearing on anything for me (or at least it has no more bearing than that movie where base Gohan made Freeza explode with a single punch), so I think Kibito one-shots in both cases.
Movie 5 base Goku dominates Movie 14 base Goku going by that. Though I don't really think Movie 5 base Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Strife1 wrote:Gohan Buu Vs. Gogeta Ssj OR Gohan and Gotenks Ssj3 Absorbed by Buu Vs. Gogeta Ssj
Gogeta loses both.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Battle of the Gods has no real bearing on anything for me (or at least it has no more bearing than that movie where base Gohan made Freeza explode with a single punch), so I think Kibito one-shots in both cases.
Movie 5 base Goku dominates Movie 14 base Goku going by that. Though I don't really think Movie 5 base Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza.
How strong do you think Kibito is? You obviously don't follow the movie where Gohan was haxed in base and could one-shot Freeza so how do you get Kibito one shotting Freeza?
In power levels? Around 350,000,000. I never really thought about Kibito and just kind of had him there because that's where I had base Gohan, since the guides say that he's around base Gohan's power. I don't think it really matters since there's no evidence for him being stronger either way. Sure, Movies 12 and 14 would supposedly show how strong the base saiyans are, but you can always just make up reasons for why those showings or statements aren't valid ("Freeza was suppressed", "Goku was suppressed", "Gohan was haxxed", "it's a movie, it doesn't count", et cetera). If I weren't doing power levels, I'd just go with simple power scaling for a rough estimate, and conclude that Kibito being stronger than Freeza in the Buu Saga would fit with the bloating of power levels from Piccolo Jr. to Vegeta and from Vegeta to Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:In power levels? Around 350,000,000. I never really thought about Kibito and just kind of had him there because that's where I had base Gohan, since the guides say that he's around base Gohan's power. I don't think it really matters since there's no evidence for him being stronger either way. Sure, Movies 12 and 14 would supposedly show how strong the base saiyans are, but you can always just make up reasons for why those showings or statements aren't valid ("Freeza was suppressed", "Goku was suppressed", "Gohan was haxxed", "it's a movie, it doesn't count", et cetera). If I weren't doing power levels, I'd just go with simple power scaling for a rough estimate, and conclude that Kibito being stronger than Freeza in the Buu Saga would fit with the bloating of power levels from Piccolo Jr. to Vegeta and from Vegeta to Freeza.
There's also the fact that a 10% gap is enough for someone to 1hko. I don't see any implications that the base saiyans got over 100x stronger since Freeza.
