The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

There's also the fact that a 10% gap is enough for someone to 1hko.

Officially, Goku vs Freeza was 150,000,000 vs 120,000,000. 25% gap. No one hit KO there. And if you're talking about Dodoria, he can easily be explained by the circumstances.

[Draken]

There's also the fact that a 10% gap is enough for someone to 1hko.

Officially, Goku vs Freeza was 150,000,000 vs 120,000,000. 25% gap. No one hit KO there. And if you're talking about Dodoria, he can easily be explained by the circumstances.

Dodora, Zarbon, Cui, (okay fine Cui was a bit bigger, but still 24000/18000 = 4/3 = 33% gap was 1hko). And officially, SSJ is a 50x gap, and Goku was exhausted and battered up as hell. He may or may not have actually been 150 million during the fight.

[RandomGuy96]

Zarbon? And Cui is also easily explained by the circumstances, though it's not like he would've done much better if they were different...

Also there's no evidence that they were below those levels for the fight. You'd think that it would be mentioned somewhere if the precedent set by those official power levels was completely wrong. People just like to say that so they can apply insanely small gaps.

[Draken]

Zarbon? And Cui is also easily explained by the circumstances, though it's not like he would've done much better if they were different...

Also there's no evidence that they were below those levels for the fight. You'd think that it would be mentioned somewhere if the precedent set by those official power levels was completely wrong. People just like to say that so they can apply insanely small gaps.

Vegeta was like 30k against his 28k or some shit after transformation. Or Zarbon was his 28k against Vegeta's 24k.

"Circumstances." ya sure. Freeza is easily explained by the circumstances as well. Well how about the fact that prior to transforming Goku was half dead and couldn't even stand on his own, with a stated level of 3 million and a stated MAX of 150 million because of a 50x increase?

[Saiga]

There's no need to explain Goku and Freeza, Goku beat the shit out of him for funsies.

[Mjb1985]

Considering the only time we get to see their full powers and Freeza ended up winning that quick battle, I'm more inclined to give Freeza a lot more credit than an 80% gap. And Freeza's 50% power handling the KHH from Kkx20 Goku solidifies that as well for me. I have Freeza as a close rival to Goku, similar to every other arc ending battle.

Maybe 120 million is the range Freeza got to when Goku decided to quit against him.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I think Freeza fared so well against Goku because of his bulked up muscles and overall durability. Seriously, the dude survived a planet exploding on him. Goku may have 25% more Ki but Freeza's strength and durability gave him the ability to resist for as long as he did.

[Godo]

I think Freeza fared so well against Goku because of his bulked up muscles and overall durability. Seriously, the dude survived a planet exploding on him. Goku may have 25% more Ki but Freeza's strength and durability gave him the ability to resist for as long as he did.

Goku fought at a relaxed, "normal" power output state, whilst Freeza went all out during the fight (when he bulked up to 100%) just to be able to show some resistance. So much in fact, that he burned out all his ki in a short time.
If Goku would have went all out like Freeza did, Freeza would probably not last even a minute. After all, Goku's agenda was to crush Freeza and his pride, showing him utter defeat in this way.

Sure, Freeza is tough and seems to have durability. But it's not like as if he was in the center of the planet's explosion either. He was probably tossed out into space.

[Kaboom]

I think the only thing that might have affected how Goku and Freeza compared was Goku's injuries holding him back a bit. Breaking into Super Saiyan may have replenished his stamina and ki, but it didn't make all the damage he'd sustained from Freeza's beatings go away, and they would probably affect his performance somewhat. More so than Freeza's own damage would, at least.

Otherwise, I don't see anything that would necessitate doubting the 150/120 million figures for them... Freeza got in a few good hits, but Goku was still in control for the majority of the fight. Specific power gaps don't matter that much anyhow.

[Draken]

I think Freeza fared so well against Goku because of his bulked up muscles and overall durability. Seriously, the dude survived a planet exploding on him. Goku may have 25% more Ki but Freeza's strength and durability gave him the ability to resist for as long as he did.

Goku fought at a relaxed, "normal" power output state, whilst Freeza went all out during the fight (when he bulked up to 100%) just to be able to show some resistance. So much in fact, that he burned out all his ki in a short time.
If Goku would have went all out like Freeza did, Freeza would probably not last even a minute. After all, Goku's agenda was to crush Freeza and his pride, showing him utter defeat in this way.

Sure, Freeza is tough and seems to have durability. But it's not like as if he was in the center of the planet's explosion either. He was probably tossed out into space.

He had 0 ki to shield himself with, was cut in half, and survived a planetary explosion. That's durability if I've ever seen it.

[Godo]

He had 0 ki to shield himself with

We don't know that.

was cut in half

He sure was. He managed to shoot a huge ki blast either way (not too damaged to be able to still fight).

survived a planetary explosion

How strong was the explosion in the first place? We don't know that. Was Freeza affected by 100% of the explosion or was he pushed by it's shockwave? Was Freeza engulfed by it?
Freeza even said that when the planet exploded, he would survive since he could breathe in space. Did he expect that he fully could have escaped the planetary explosion, or was he thinking about that it wouldn't kill him or harm him by much?
Would five minutes be enough to fly far enough out to space and escape the radius of the blast? Was Freeza that fast?

Yes, I agree with that Freeza was very durable, especially since he took all that beating from Goku before succumbing to the explosion. And I still believe in the official numbers.
But I like to have a critical standpoint either way.

[Draken]

He had 0 ki to shield himself with

We don't know that.

was cut in half

He sure was. He managed to shoot a huge ki blast either way (not too damaged to be able to still fight).

survived a planetary explosion

How strong was the explosion in the first place? We don't know that. Was Freeza affected by 100% of the explosion or was he pushed by it's shockwave? Was Freeza engulfed by it?
Freeza even said that when the planet exploded, he would survive since he could breathe in space. Did he expect that he fully could have escaped the planetary explosion, or was he thinking about that it wouldn't kill him or harm him by much?
Would five minutes be enough to fly far enough out to space and escape the radius of the blast? Was Freeza that fast?

Yes, I agree with that Freeza was very durable, especially since he took all that beating from Goku before succumbing to the explosion. And I still believe in the official numbers.
But I like to have a critical standpoint either way.

He used all his ki in his last blast attempt at Goku, remember when he got a recharge by Goku? If not 0 it was very close.

[Mjb1985]

Well a lot of people like the 120/150 numbers because of what happens in the next saga. Trunks thinks he can handle a powered up Freeza in seconds and Goku is well ahead of Trunks. So people like to think that Goku was just injured against Freeza a bit instead of making him progress so much over the course of the year.

Freeza fought Goku way better than Zarbon was able to fight Goku. Nothing in Freeza vs Goku suggested that Goku could have completely manhandled him at any time imo.

[RandomGuy96]

The 120/150 figure works fine to me. As in, those levels, at full power, with neither being short of their full power, because such a thing was never mentioned and would actually make the numbers we were given pointless, since they wouldn't reflect anything. Also, Trunks has no idea how strong Freeza is.

I think Freeza fared so well against Goku because of his bulked up muscles and overall durability. Seriously, the dude survived a planet exploding on him. Goku may have 25% more Ki but Freeza's strength and durability gave him the ability to resist for as long as he did.

Also this. Freeza's species is naturally durable. And remember Nappa vs Goku? Goku was twice as strong there yet he couldn't one hit kill Nappa. Imagine that, except Nappa gains significantly more power- enough to actually put up a fight rather than just get effortlessly pummeled- and the Freeza vs Goku fight makes more sense.

Vegeta was like 30k against his 28k or some shit after transformation. Or Zarbon was his 28k against Vegeta's 24k.

I actually think Monster Zarbon is 30,000. Vegeta only took him out because he cheap-shotted him by throwing dirt into his eyes and then spamming blasts. He even bragged about how clever he was for doing that.

[Draken]

The 120/150 figure works fine to me. As in, those levels, at full power, with neither being short of their full power, because such a thing was never mentioned and would actually make the numbers we were given pointless, since they wouldn't reflect anything. Also, Trunks has no idea how strong Freeza is.

I think Freeza fared so well against Goku because of his bulked up muscles and overall durability. Seriously, the dude survived a planet exploding on him. Goku may have 25% more Ki but Freeza's strength and durability gave him the ability to resist for as long as he did.

Also this. Freeza's species is naturally durable. And remember Nappa vs Goku? Goku was twice as strong there yet he couldn't one hit kill Nappa. Imagine that, except Nappa gains significantly more power- enough to actually put up a fight rather than just get effortlessly pummeled- and the Freeza vs Goku fight makes more sense.

Vegeta was like 30k against his 28k or some shit after transformation. Or Zarbon was his 28k against Vegeta's 24k.

I actually think Monster Zarbon is 30,000. Vegeta only took him out because he cheap-shotted him by throwing dirt into his eyes and then spamming blasts. He even bragged about how clever he was for doing that.

I think Vegeta had at least a slight power advantage seeing how easy it was. If they were dead even I don't think Vegeta could have just punched through him so easily despite his surprise/cheap attacks.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't think you need to have a power advantage to punch through someone anyway. I mean we've seen strong people fail to impale weaker people on their fists a lot, like kaio-ken x3 Goku vs Vegeta or Goku vs Nappa. And it's shown repeatedly that the element of surprise is a huge advantage; if Piccolo could punt 50% Freeza despite only possessing 2% of his power, and if Majin Vegeta could one-shot Goku at equal powers with one light chop... what could Vegeta do to Zarbon with a surprise hit at equal powers?

[RandomGuy96]

Pikkon vs pre-Majin Vegeta SS2.

[dbzfan7]

Paikuhan vs pre-Majin Vegeta SS2.

Toei enhanced Paikuhan wins

Non Toei enhanced Paikuhan loses.

[Kamiccolo9]

Paikuhan vs pre-Majin Vegeta SS2.

Vegeta. Isn't it implied that he surpassed SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell Games even before he gets his Majin powerup? And I don't see Pikkon beating Cell Games Gohan.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't think that was implied. The only thing ever mentioned was that Vegeta is stronger than Teen Gohan. Since he seems impressed that Goku surpassed Gohan when he fought Cell, he's most likely weaker before he obtained the Majin power-up.

Vegeta still wins.