Base Saiyans and Freeza

[TheGmGoken]

That was an english dub error sir. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r-FHHr1NnI. Goku said it's a form beyond ssj. SSJ2. NEVER did he say Ascended SSJ in accurate scripts. and original audio

Ascend = Beyond to me. Ascend = to climb, to go up, etc. Beyond is past the level, same as go up to me. Beyond SSJ, Ascended SSJ = Climb above SSJ. Sir.

In Dbz when speaking of Ascended SSJ. They said Ascended Saiyan ir Past SSJ. They don't say beyond ssj. However they did say beyond ssj for SSJ2. Beyond and Go up is not the same. As beyond is much more of a stretch or distance then "going up". Goku once again NEVER called ssj2 ascended saiyan and called it ssj2.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/ascend
http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/ascending/

Beyond and Ascend are not synonyms.

[Draken]

The thing is he doesn't even know SSJ2 exists. I don't think we're on the same page here. I'm arguing that Goku didn't expect SSJ2 in any way, shape, or form, because as far as he was concerned it was merely Gohan releasing his anger and potential. He doesn't know SSJ2 exists. He doesn't even think SSJ2 is SSJ2. He called it an Ascended Saiyan 7 years later. At the time, he's not surprised because he was confident his son would bring out his potential and get mad and rape-stomp Cell.

Why would Goku put his faith in Gohan if he didn't show anything in the ROSAT other then surpassing him. Even surpassing him isn't enough to beat Cell. Showing a glimpse of SSJ2 would cement Goku's thought for having Gohan fight Cell instead of taking a big risk that can easily flop since rage boosts can become anything. Seeing it in the time chamber briefly he would have felt that power Gohan had, of course its only a glimpse so he wouldn't know what it was other then Gohan's hidden power releasing. I think Gohan showing his hidden power release in the ROSAT shows why Goku put his faith in Gohan. I can't see Goku having never felt Gohan's hidden power at that point not even slightly impressed by SSJ2 Gohan. Its a dragon ball tradition to have everyone gush about how awesome a strong ki is, but this one time, Goku doesn't.

Didn't Goku jaw drop when Gohan transformed?

No it did not. Goku only smiled and was never impressed by SSJ2 Gohan in the slightest.

Iunno, why would Goku put his faith in the boys if they didn't show anything that impressed him in the slightest? Because they had fusion up their sleeve. Why did he put his faith in Gohan? Because he had rage boosts and potential that brought him from 1 to 1000 when he was like 4. There's no implication whatsoever that Goku saw SSJ2 before, nor does he call it SSJ2, nor does he believe that SSJ2 is a thing even when Gohan was in the form. It's just a huge ass powerup that slightly spiked his hair, maybe from the aura, how would he know? He doesn't because he's not surprised, how many times do I have to say this lol. He's not surprised his son is holyshitragehaxmax. Also GmGoken.

In Dbz when speaking of Ascended SSJ. They said Ascended Saiyan ir Past SSJ. They don't say beyond ssj. However they did say beyond ssj for SSJ2. Beyond and Go up is not the same. As beyond is much more of a stretch or distance then "going up". Goku once again NEVER called ssj2 ascended saiyan and called it ssj2.
http://thesaurus.com/browse/ascend
http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/ascending/

Beyond and Ascend are not synonyms.

Please show me the panel, I don't recall them every calling Super Saiyan 2 "Super Saiyan 2". They're not synonyms but they're pretty damn similar. To ascend is to go beyond; "I ascended past the stairs", I went beyond and above the stairs.

[TheGmGoken]

That face looks shocked and surprised to me. He's not smiling.

The anime portrays it differently. In the manga Goku notices a large Ki, but then smiles on the next page.

Oh good. We're going by he manga.


His jaw didn't drop. But his face is not smiling and just like how the anime adapted it. He was shocked. Notice the spark around Goku's face that happens normally in videos games when a character is shocked or surprised. It happens in anime as well. As I said Goku was surprised as well.

[TheGmGoken]

Please show me the panel, I don't recall them every calling Super Saiyan 2 "Super Saiyan 2". They're not synonyms but they're pretty damn similar. To ascend is to go beyond; "I ascended past the stairs", I went beyond and above the stairs.

Wanted to get the jap panel but this is the fastest resource. There you go just like the adapted anime series Goku said BEYOND SSJ and SSJ2. Not ascended.

To ascend is not to beyond. Here like take it like this
Ascend means power increase in dbz logic. Such as ASSJ and USSJ being a power branch for SSJ.
Beyond would be a WHOLE new power such a transformations. SSJ -------> SSJ2.

[Draken]

lots of stuff

I dunno I always used it as similar words. I use it like "ascend" to go past something, to go over something, "beyond" to go over something, further away, etc. Ascend SSJ, go past the 50x mark and go to 100x. Go beyond SSJ, go beyond 50x and into 100x. Pretty close in my view.

At least we agree on the Goku part

[dbzfan7]

Iunno, why would Goku put his faith in the boys if they didn't show anything that impressed him in the slightest? Because they had fusion up their sleeve. Why did he put his faith in Gohan? Because he had rage boosts and potential that brought him from 1 to 1000 when he was like 4. There's no implication whatsoever that Goku saw SSJ2 before, nor does he call it SSJ2, nor does he believe that SSJ2 is a thing even when Gohan was in the form. It's just a huge ass powerup that slightly spiked his hair, maybe from the aura, how would he know? He doesn't because he's not surprised, how many times do I have to say this lol. He's not surprised his son is holyshitragehaxmax.

For the fusion he knew what fusion was capable of and what the boys were capable of so he put two and two together. Once again Goku had to have felt some surge of power in the ROSAT. He was the only one not impressed by Gohan's power. Its as if he saw it before. All Goku needs is a second to feel Gohan's ki spike to know he could beat Cell. There is also no implication he never felt a Ki surge in the ROSAT that convinced him Gohan was the only one who could win. Goku could have saw a SSJ2 glimpse and not think of it as SSJ2. Would you not be impressed if all of the sudden a massive new power surfaced that you have never felt before that goes beyond every limit you have seen.

I also accept the fuck it all logic for Gohan was really the only shot we got since he is slightly stronger and can rage boost to higher levels. Though that doesn't explain why Goku was so confident Gohan could win if rage boosts can have anything happen.

His jaw didn't drop. But his face is not smiling and just like how the anime adapted it. He was shocked. Notice the spark around Goku's face that happens normally in videos games when a character is shocked or surprised. It happens in anime as well. As I said Goku was surprised as well.

I don't think of it as shocked, looks more like to me he wonders if Gohan finally unleashed his power as it looked like it wasn't going to happen. That's why while everyone else is shocked he smiles afterwords.

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

I believe that after the Freeza arc the base power of the Saiyans didn't increase by much, hence the need to become accustomed to the SSJ form and perfecting their use of it.
And when they had their encounter with the cyborgs, they realized that only training wouldn't do them any more good, so they had to reach a form beyond SSJ.
If training made such huge changes in their base levels, the SSJ multiplier would apply too, thus smaller gains would make a larger difference.
But that doesn't seem to be the case.
So the Saiyans had to reach for new forms and new ways to accustom to the SSJ form to be able to progress.

So personally I don't believe that their base levels breached the 10,000,000 mark.

How powerful do you think Perfect Cell was? I think Goku's base had to fly over 10,000,000 to fight him since Goku was only a SSJ.


From the Super Exciting Guide. This part is about different types of training and it's gains.

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

[Bussani]

In Dbz when speaking of Ascended SSJ. They said Ascended Saiyan ir Past SSJ. They don't say beyond ssj. However they did say beyond ssj for SSJ2. Beyond and Go up is not the same. As beyond is much more of a stretch or distance then "going up". Goku once again NEVER called ssj2 ascended saiyan and called it ssj2.

I think you're finding differences that don't exist in the original dialogue. In Japanese, both the Grade forms and Super Saiyan 2 are described as forms that "surpass Super Saiyan". There's no "beyond" vs. "ascend".

[hleV]

Goku had no idea about SS2, he was expecting Gohan to just snap and get a power boost. Which Gohan did, but he transformed on top of that.

And they last for 1 minute. Goku putting his faith into a one minute rage boost is silly. He is also not even surprised at a new Super Saiyan form while everyone else is.

Goku had taught Gohan's SS to last forever, perhaps his rage boost would do the same. Wait, it DID. And Goku was surprised at SS2 just like everyone else. If for some reason the face expression looks different to you, so be it, but stop using it as an argument.

[TheGmGoken]

I don't think of it as shocked, looks more like to me he wonders if Gohan finally unleashed his power as it looked like it wasn't going to happen. That's why while everyone else is shocked he smiles afterwords.

You don't call that face shocked? did you not see the symbol next to his face? That little spark thing that used in manga, anime, and even video games next to Goku's face. That means Shocked,surprised, or don't know what's about to happen. He was smiling afterwards because Gohan has "unlocked" his hidden power. Goku realized threw all of his rage boost Gohan got that using that Gohan would become stronger. Goku was counting on Cell to make Gohan so mad that e would use his anger. Maybe for an extended period . BUT if we're going by your 1 minute rage thing then take it like this. Goku wanted Gohan to be pissed so he can destroy Cell easily and quickly. Hence why Goku told Gohan to stop toying with Cell.

[dbzfan7]

Goku had taught Gohan's SS to last forever, perhaps his rage boost would do the same. Wait, it DID. And Goku was surprised at SS2 just like everyone else. If for some reason the face expression looks different to you, so be it, but stop using it as an argument.

Yes because Goku knew his rage boost would last, its not like every other time where they are so brief that they end at the worst times. I'm not even calling my theory correct. It's only a theory. It's also funny that nothing contradicts Goku seeing a glimpse of Gohan's power sky rocket which would show why he was perfectly fine and confident letting Gohan fight (of course it works both ways though).

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P7.6, P13.3, P14.7
Context: as Gohan kills the Cell Juniors
Goku: “Hehhehehe…I kne-knew it…”
[ ]
Piccolo: “Is that Gohan?...”
[ ]
Vegeta: “This is unbelievable…”

This can be taken as I knew it he would rage boost. But when does a rage boost ever change Gohan entirely. So he could mean he knew Gohan could reach this level again.

You don't call that face shocked? did you not see the symbol next to his face? That little spark thing that used in manga, anime, and even video games next to Goku's face. That means Shocked,surprised, or don't know what's about to happen. He was smiling afterwards because Gohan has "unlocked" his hidden power. Goku realized threw all of his rage boost Gohan got that using that Gohan would become stronger. Goku was counting on Cell to make Gohan so mad that e would use his anger. Maybe for an extended period . BUT if we're going by your 1 minute rage thing then take it like this. Goku wanted Gohan to be pissed so he can destroy Cell easily and quickly. Hence why Goku told Gohan to stop toying with Cell.

He told Gohan to stop toying with Cell because they have no idea what he is capable of.

That symbol is also used for when a new ki has shot up. His reaction was "a ki has shot up" he saw it was Gohan and smiled. Compare him to everyone else. He doesn't look to shocked to me. Goku also coud have gone with the fuck it theory of we got no choice. But he was so confident in a rage boost that could easily fail and had no idea the boost could last.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, I think Gohan's power simply grabbed Goku's attention. I mean, wasn't Goku pretty much giving up on the whole idea a few pages before? It makes sense for him to be surprised that Gohan actually unleashed his hidden power after all that.

[dbzfan7]

Yeah, I think Gohan's power simply grabbed Goku's attention. I mean, wasn't Goku pretty much giving up on the whole idea a few pages before? It makes sense for him to be surprised that Gohan actually unleashed his hidden power after all that.

Exactly, Goku was before hand getting his ass kicked by the Cell jr until a ki surge grabbed his attention. He was also about to step in since it looked like Gohan wasn't going to do what he intended.

Yet some people here are chirping at me for a theory that i never claimed was true.

[Draken]

Yeah, I think Gohan's power simply grabbed Goku's attention. I mean, wasn't Goku pretty much giving up on the whole idea a few pages before? It makes sense for him to be surprised that Gohan actually unleashed his hidden power after all that.

Exactly, Goku was before hand getting his ass kicked by the Cell jr until a ki surge grabbed his attention. He was also about to step in since it looked like Gohan wasn't going to do what he intended.

Yet some people here are chirping at me for a theory that i never claimed was true.

If you're trying to post a theory without sparking a debate and seeing other peoples' opinions on it, then why post it?

[dbzfan7]

Yeah, I think Gohan's power simply grabbed Goku's attention. I mean, wasn't Goku pretty much giving up on the whole idea a few pages before? It makes sense for him to be surprised that Gohan actually unleashed his hidden power after all that.

Exactly, Goku was before hand getting his ass kicked by the Cell jr until a ki surge grabbed his attention. He was also about to step in since it looked like Gohan wasn't going to do what he intended.

Yet some people here are chirping at me for a theory that i never claimed was true.

If you're trying to post a theory without sparking a debate and seeing other peoples' opinions on it, then why post it?

Some opinions on my theory are fine and well criticized, while others are going don't argue it as if it were fact when i'm not.

[Godo]

Yeah I believe that the largest gains in base post Freeza arc came from the ROSAT training.
Those tree years before the arrival of the Androids were spent pretty much getting used to the SSJ form and I don't believe there were much gains in base since they trained at Earth. Vegeta's training was pretty much attaining the SsJ form and getting used to it.

During the ROSAT training, though, they had much better training partners, and also, a full year of intense and uninterrupted training. Not only that, they achieved new forms of the SSj.

Yes. I really like this theory. If I ever get around to finishing my power levels list, I will probably base it on this idea. What kind of multipliers do you use for SSJ Grades 2 and 3? I use a 65x and 80x base myself.

Well, I have no set numbers, but they should be above x50 and under x100.
Your numbers could work very well. But there are also theories that the Grade 3 multiplier could be as strong as SSJ2, but it is unusable due to it's drawbacks and power drain.
I would put it lower than that, though.

Some opinions on my theory are fine and well criticized, while others are going don't argue it as if it were fact when i'm not.

Huh?

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah I believe that the largest gains in base post Freeza arc came from the ROSAT training.
Those tree years before the arrival of the Androids were spent pretty much getting used to the SSJ form and I don't believe there were much gains in base since they trained at Earth. Vegeta's training was pretty much attaining the SsJ form and getting used to it.

During the ROSAT training, though, they had much better training partners, and also, a full year of intense and uninterrupted training. Not only that, they achieved new forms of the SSj.

Yes. I really like this theory. If I ever get around to finishing my power levels list, I will probably base it on this idea. What kind of multipliers do you use for SSJ Grades 2 and 3? I use a 65x and 80x base myself.

Well, I have no set numbers, but they should be above x50 and under x100.
Your numbers could work very well. But there are also theories that the Grade 3 multiplier could be as strong as SSJ2, but it is unusable due to it's drawbacks and power drain.
I would put it lower than that, though.

Yeah, I don't think that anything shown makes Grade III that strong, but I do see that theory a lot.

[Mjb1985]

Grade 3 can be pretty strong. Goku in the Rosat's Grade 3 is superior to Semi Cell's initial power by a good margin. Grade 3 should span the gap that is

Semi Cell > 16 > 17,18 > Super Saiyans

[Kamiccolo9]

Grade 3 can be pretty strong. Goku in the Rosat's Grade 3 is superior to Semi Cell's initial power by a good margin. Grade 3 should span the gap that is

Semi Cell > 16 > 17,18 > Super Saiyans

Yeah, it's pretty strong, but not as strong as SSJ2. We also don't know how much stronger Goku had become by that point in his training.

[Mjb1985]

It could be stronger than Ssj2 in terms of boost. Ssj2 being stronger than Grade 2 makes sense but Grade 3 is excessive power. Ssj2 could be weaker and just a more efficient use of power. It doesn't necessarily have to be stronger though.