How would you compare Grade 3 SSJ to SSJ2?

[TheGmGoken]

I made this topic so another thread won't get ruined. However I do think SSJ2 > Grade 3 SSJ. I'll say Grade 3 is close to SSJ2 through. Around an 70 - 90x boast.

[Kaboom]

For a while I was considering it moderately stronger than Super Saiyan 2, something around 125x. But that recently translated whatever-it-was related to the Trunks special that talked about Super Saiyan forms and pegged Super Saiyan 2 as the "strongest" has caused me to reconsider lately. Now I peg it at equal to Super Saiyan 2 in power (sharing the 100x boost), but still the inferior form for other obvious reasons.

That may change again, though... That mini-guide from the Trunks-whatever (was it the anime comic?) is pretty old, and might not need to be held on the same pedestal as more recent stuff about the transformations like the Super Exciting Guide.

[Kamiccolo9]

Personally, I consider it inferior to SSJ2 in every way. Even if it were physically stronger, the greater ki control that granted by SSJ2 would enable the fighter to channel their ki into their strength and surpass Grade 3 anyway. I use an 80x base for Grade III.

That's interesting. Generally I find people put Grade 3 superior to Ssj2. You have Goku advancing a lot in a short time in the Rosat?

Yeah, I had this discussion with Godo earlier in the thread, and he had this to say.

Yeah I believe that the largest gains in base post Freeza arc came from the ROSAT training.
Those tree years before the arrival of the Androids were spent pretty much getting used to the SSJ form and I don't believe there were much gains in base since they trained at Earth. Vegeta's training was pretty much attaining the SsJ form and getting used to it.

During the ROSAT training, though, they had much better training partners, and also, a full year of intense and uninterrupted training. Not only that, they achieved new forms of the SSj.

I pretty much agree with this.

[Mjb1985]

So how strong is Goku then?

Grade 3 Goku > Semi Cell > Grade 2 Goku > Ssj Goku

Is the gap between the Super Saiyans and Semi Cell way less than 2x?

[Kamiccolo9]

So how strong is Goku then?

Grade 3 Goku > Semi Cell > Grade 2 Goku > Ssj Goku

Is the gap between the Super Saiyans and Semi Cell way less than 2x?

Well, at the time when he showed off Grade III to Gohan, he hadn't seen Perfect Cell yet. So he was probably comparing his Grade III to Semi-Perfect Cell. I imagine he was stronger than Cell, but the speed would have still been an issue.
I think that Goku didn't make huge increases until he started mastering the SSJ state. The combination of that, sparring with Gohan, and the hostile environment would have accelerated his training tremendously.

[Mjb1985]

That's exactly what I'm saying. What I'm asking is how big the gap is between them and how big of a boost is Grade3?


Grade 3 ???
Semi Cell 100
Grade 2 ???
Ssj Goku ???

Just fill in the question marks

[Kamiccolo9]

That's exactly what I'm saying. What I'm asking is how big the gap is between them and how big of a boost is Grade3?


Grade 3 ???
Semi Cell 100
Grade 2 ???
Ssj Goku ???

Just fill in the question marks

Well, I'm gonna assume that Goku had gotten some training underway at this point, and was around Android Arc Vegeta's strength. So, all of my numbers are gonna be based off that.
Base Goku would be around 4 million.
SSJ Goku would be around 200 million.
Grade 2 would be around 260 million.
Grade 3 would be around 320 million.
I have Androids 17 and 18 around 230 million and 210 million, respectively, with Full Power Imperfect Cell and Android 16 being around 260 million. Semi Perfect Cell was able to shrug off 16's punch to the face like it was nothing, so I'd place him anywhere between 350-400 million.

[Mjb1985]

Grade 3 is supposed to be superior to Semi Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

Grade 3 is supposed to be superior to Semi Cell.

Well, that's why I said around 4 million for base Goku. If you give him 4.5 million, he's slightly stronger than the low number I gave for Semi-Perfect Cell's power. I left it kinda vague since Gohan saying that could definitely defeat Cell was made when Gohan hadn't seen Semi-Perfect Cell's full power. And Goku's quote leaves it kinda vague as to whether he was saying he couldn't beat Cell because he wasn't strong enough, he was too slow, or both.

[dbzfan7]

I consider the grade forms imperfect SSJ2's. Grade 2 is a step in the right direction while Grade 3 Gives you the power of a SSJ2, but the speed loss makes the form bad.

[Mjb1985]

Yes that's why I think Grade 3 Goku should be considerably higher than Semi Cell's initial power. You see what I'm talking about though right? It's pretty tight.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yes that's why I think Grade 3 Goku should be considerably higher than Semi Cell's initial power. You see what I'm talking about though right? It's pretty tight.

Oh, his initial power. Yes, I agree. Yeah, I see what you're talking about, but going from the quotes give, I can see it going either way, so I placed them pretty close.

[Mjb1985]

From the quotes Grade 3 Goku should be greatly superior to Semi Cell's initial power. Gohan said he can definitely beat Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

From the quotes Grade 3 Goku should be greatly superior to Semi Cell's initial power. Gohan said he can definitely beat Cell.

Yeah, but the numbers I gave were for Semi-Perfect Cell's full power. For his initial power, I would place him around 300-310 million. Vegeta said that he powered up a lot in their fight. I also think it's likely that Goku knew that Cell wasn't displaying his full power when they spoke, so that would influence the uncertainty in his quote as well.

[Mjb1985]

Why did you mention 16 punching a FP Cell then? 16 punched Initial Cell.

[Kamiccolo9]

Why did you mention 16 punching a FP Cell then? 16 punched Initial Cell.

I made a mistake when writing that. Still shouldn't change anything though. Initial Cell is still far stronger than 16.

[Mjb1985]

So how strong according to your chart ? Way weaker than Grade 3 Goku?

[Kamiccolo9]

So how strong according to your chart ? Way weaker than Grade 3 Goku?

Slightly-decently weaker. It depends on where you put Goku in base. So with a 4-4.5 million base Goku, you have a 320-360 million Grade III Goku. So, IMO, anything in that gap would work.

[Mjb1985]

So...

You have

Grade 3 Goku 320
Initial Semi Cell 300
16 / Imperfect Cell 260
17/18/ Kamiccolo 230
Ssj Goku 200

I thought you had Freeza at 120 and Ssj Goku at 150?

[Kamiccolo9]

So...

You have

Grade 3 Goku 320
Initial Semi Cell 300
16 / Imperfect Cell 260
17/18/ Kamiccolo 230
Ssj Goku 200

I thought you had Freeza at 120 and Ssj Goku at 150?

I do. This is a very tentative list though, so a +/- 10-15 million anywhere wouldn't be unwarranted. I'm still working with my new levels.
I don't think the Saiyans made very big gains until the ROSAT training, so I see no need for the androids to be over twice as strong as Freeza. We have seen relatively minor gaps equate to dominance in a fight, so there's really no need for the gaps to be too large.