Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yeah, so? That's an obvious contradiction but Paikuhan vs Goku is perfectly plausible with Paikuhan being Super Perfect Cell level, making everything make sense.
Not really. Draken you can take over. You really think Goku could have fought SPC when he can't even keep up with PC before going full power. He would not be able to touch Paikuhan if he had such a hard time with Supressed PC who wasn't even at full strength.
Darn I was hoping you'd stay taken over .
It's his most powerful attack, I think that auto makes it stronger than burning attack. Also no, he did not dodge the second. He took one full force, braced himself for the second (failing miserably I might add) and then dodged the third with IT. He took 2 full on the face.
That doesn't really prove anything. Remember Nappa surviving two hits from Kaio-Ken x2 Goku, a x4 gap? Pikkon being stronger than SPC contradicts nothing.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:That doesn't really prove anything. Remember Nappa surviving two hits from Kaio-Ken x2 Goku, a x4 gap? Paikuhan being stronger than SPC contradicts nothing.
He survived with a broken back and being extremely crippled. Goku survived still able to stand and fight and use ki to fire a kamehameha.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Do we know for sure that Paikuhan is above Super Perfect Cell? Is it possible that Cell wasn't at full power at the time? I just remember Cell saying that he could defeat Goku, which is something he could have done even before getting his zenkai. I don't recall him having the lightning or anything either. It has been a long time since I've seen that fight though. Is there a line that says he's still at full power?
Not that I have seen. Which is why its more likely he wasn't FP, More like half since it is all he would need.
Ah ok. Pikkon being somewhat above Full Power Perfect Cell makes more sense to me. Maybe Goku "surviving" Pikkon's attacks could be attributed to his dead body? In the filler, it seems to ignore the "if you die when you're dead, you're gone forever" rule that gets introduced in the Buu Arc.
Then the Hyper Tornando wasn't quite 4 times stronger than Goku AND Goku could actually brace himself, unlike Nappa AND Goku could use his ki to defend himself more effectively than Nappa AND Pikkon was probably screwing around considering his taunting of Goku, high suppression when fighting base Goku, and his fondness for overly dramatic unneeded finishes. Simple.
Ah ok. Paikuhan being somewhat above Full Power Perfect Cell makes more sense to me. Maybe Goku "surviving" Paikuhan's attacks could be attributed to his dead body? In the filler, it seems to ignore the "if you die when you're dead, you're gone forever" rule that gets introduced in the Buu Arc.
Also that.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:That doesn't really prove anything. Remember Nappa surviving two hits from Kaio-Ken x2 Goku, a x4 gap? Paikuhan being stronger than SPC contradicts nothing.
He survived with a broken back and being extremely crippled. Goku survived still able to stand and fight and use ki to fire a kamehameha.
Seriously Goku survived his ultimate attack twice (back to back) and still could fight. Paikuhan even acted exhausted like Goku at one point. Even after Paikuhan uses the attack twice they go blow for blow and you can see Paikuhan has the same face as Goku for a struggle. And do you honestly believe if Goku braced himself a block he could survive Super Perfect Cells Kamehameha.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I don't think Pikkon was over Super Perfect Cell. Cell never displayed the sparks and aura that he had after his zenkai, and wasn't powered up when Pikkon hit him. He was just charging at base Goku, and got blindsighted by Pikkon. Unless Cell actually said that he was at full power, which I don't think he did (I could be wrong), I see no reason to assume that he was.
Ah ok. Paikuhan being somewhat above Full Power Perfect Cell makes more sense to me. Maybe Goku "surviving" Paikuhan's attacks could be attributed to his dead body? In the filler, it seems to ignore the "if you die when you're dead, you're gone forever" rule that gets introduced in the Buu Arc.
Also that.
Don't forget that any advantage that Goku had from his dead body would also apply to Pikkon.
Last edited by Kamiccolo9 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:I don't think Paikuhan was over Super Perfect Cell. Cell never displayed the sparks and aura that he had after his zenkai, and wasn't powered up when Paikuhan hit him. He was just charging at base Goku, and got blindsighted by Paikuhan. Unless Cell actually said that he was at full power, which I don't think he did (I could be wrong), I see no reason to assume that he was.
Exactly. That way the fight makes way more sense.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Yes, SPC letting himself be beaten and thrown in jail like a whipped dog and not getting back up and beating the shit out of Pikkon despite clearly being alive, ruining the point of the scene in the process and rendering everyone's reactions invalid, definitely makes the most sense. Goku would definitely be very surprised and impressed by Pikkon getting extremely lucky against Cell, doing something Goku himself could've done. It also makes sense for Pikkon to then take absolutely no damage at all from attacks over twice as strong as him.
Even after Paikuhan uses the attack twice they go blow for blow and you can see Paikuhan has the same face as Goku for a struggle
Faces don't matter here. See SS4 Goku vs Super Baby 2 (makes pained face---> "your punches tickle me hahaha") and first form Freeza vs Vegeta (makes pissed off face--->guidebooks say he's over twice as strong repeatedly).
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Because Goku surviving his ultimate attack (which is more powerful then burning shot and has a bigger multiplier) twice and still being able to fight makes much more sense. Also doesn't explain why Paikuhan is as tired as Goku is when they are both out of breath.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Tue May 14, 2013 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Indeed it does. Surviving something doesn't really require an impressive power. Nappa is a testament to that. And it fits Pikkon's personality to not instantly finish off Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yes, SPC letting himself be beaten and thrown in jail like a whipped dog and not getting back up and beating the shit out of Paikuhan despite clearly being alive, ruining the point of the scene in the process and rendering everyone's reactions invalid, definitely makes the most sense. Goku would definitely be very surprised and impressed by Paikuhan getting extremely lucky against Cell, doing something Goku himself could've done. It also makes sense for Paikuhan to then take absolutely no damage at all from attacks over twice as strong as him.
Even after Paikuhan uses the attack twice they go blow for blow and you can see Paikuhan has the same face as Goku for a struggle
Faces don't matter here. See SS4 Goku vs Super Baby 2 (makes pained face---> "your punches tickle me hahaha") and first form Freeza vs Vegeta (makes pissed off face--->guidebooks say he's over twice as strong repeatedly).
It doesn't make sense for them to have bodies in the first place. Toei does what they want with filler. Maybe something prevents Cell from escaping? He already had once, so maybe the oni people did something to prevent it from happening again? That makes sense to me. We don't know how Toei Hell works.
Regardless, Cell doesn't exhibit any of his Super Perfect traits. If he did, he could just teleport out of Hell.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Indeed it does. Surviving something doesn't really require an impressive power. Nappa is a testament to that. And it fits Paikuhan's personality to not instantly finish off Goku.
And I guess you also believe Goku could survive Cell's final kamehameha against Gohan as long as he crossed his arms in block formation like he did against Paikuhan.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Do we know for sure that Paikuhan is above Super Perfect Cell? Is it possible that Cell wasn't at full power at the time? I just remember Cell saying that he could defeat Goku, which is something he could have done even before getting his zenkai. I don't recall him having the lightning or anything either. It has been a long time since I've seen that fight though. Is there a line that says he's still at full power?
There is a guidebook that states that Cell was as strong as he was when he was alive, or something like that. I don't remember the actual wording of this, but I remember that it was implying that Cell was Super Perfect. I think it was one of the anime Daizenshuu guides.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Goku's battle power already exceeds Cell's but the energy also attacks at a sub-cosmic level so Cell is f***ed.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
MDSTSSJ wrote:Movie 7 SSJ Kakarotto with the Genkidama absorbed Vs Semi Perfect Cell.
Cell. This Goku was able to beat Super 13, who I believe was roughly on par with 16. If we had more feats to go on, I might give it to Goku, but as it stands, I don't see Goku closing the massive gap between 16 and Cell. Besides, Cell would likely just regenerate. Or blow himself up if he saw that he was outclassed.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Goku's battle power already exceeds Cell's but the energy also attacks at a sub-cosmic level so Cell is f***ed.
I don't know where you get Goku being stronger than Cell, but that's your call. If the Genki Dama had been shown being more effective in the past, I may consider giving Goku the advantage, but it wasn't capable of taking out either Vegeta or Freeza.
MDSTSSJ wrote:Movie 7 SSJ Kakarotto with the Genkidama absorbed Vs Semi Perfect Cell.
Cell. This Goku was able to beat Super 13, who I believe was roughly on par with 16. If we had more feats to go on, I might give it to Goku, but as it stands, I don't see Goku closing the massive gap between 16 and Cell. Besides, Cell would likely just regenerate. Or blow himself up if he saw that he was outclassed.
I consider Super 13 stronger than 16. 13, 14 and 15 are weaker than 17 and 18 but those 3 fused, are too strong. Super 13 is stronger than 16, 17 and 18 and this Goku beat Super 13 with one single blow and when Super 13 try hit that Kakarotto, his fists disintegrated. For me that´s a massive amount of power and that´s why i think that Kakarotto is above Semi Perfect Cell.
I think that even Imperfect Cell could've done what Goku did.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I think that even Imperfect Cell could've done what Goku did.
I think that may be pushing it. Super 13, 16, and Imperfect Cell are all about even, IMO. Super 13 may be slightly weaker, since Piccolo was able to kinda budge him (I think?), but I don't see much of a gap there.
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