Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Draken wrote:
Well Kaioshin is arguably stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than 18 who's way stronger than Freeza who should be stronger than the base Saiyans, so maybe not.
That's precisely what we are arguing, so it's a bit of circular reasoning to assume that to argue against what I am saying.
My point is that Freeza's NOT stronger than the base saiyans, precisely because as you agree, Kaioshin is clearly stronger than Frieza. And the base saiyans are shown by what I pointed out to be stronger than Kaioshin.
I mean otherwise, are we saying if we gave some Freeza level guys a Potara fusion, they could whoop Buuhan easily? That seems like an extreme stretch
MuKen wrote:I think by the end of the series, the Saiyans' base forms have clearly moved beyond any of the beginning of the series villains, including Freeza. Goku and Vegeta at least are above Kaioshin and Kibito. Their fusion was completely toying with Buuhan before they ever used SSJ. Kibito and Kaioshin's fusion on the other hand, didn't even want to come fight Kid Buu. Seeing as all of Kaioshin's peers were said to be able to one-shot Freeza easily, I think it's safe to say that Kaioshin himself is at least on Freeza's level, and probably much higher.
The new movie story that is written by Toriyama has Base Saiyans weaker then Freeza. Also Vegetto only fought Boohan as an SSJ, he never fought him in base (anime does not count as it has loads of inconsistent filer).
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
MuKen wrote:That's precisely what we are arguing, so it's a bit of circular reasoning to assume that to argue against what I am saying.
My point is that Freeza's NOT stronger than the base saiyans, precisely because as you agree, Kaioshin is clearly stronger than Freeza. And the base saiyans are shown by what I pointed out to be stronger than Kaioshin.
I mean otherwise, are we saying if we gave some Freeza level guys a Potara fusion, they could whoop Buuhan easily? That seems like an extreme stretch
You realise that Gohan stated he would have trouble with Kibito if he didn't go SSJ. Right? So if you believe base Saiyans > Kaioshin. Then you would have to believe base Saiyans > Kibito > Kaioshin. That isn't the case. The Kaioshin is clearly several times stronger than Kibito. So no, base Saiyans are not more powerful than Kaioshin. They are just not impressed with him because of their SSJ transformations. You also need to realise that the Potara fusion doesn't just add the two Saiyan's battle powers together. It does a lot more than that.There would be no way adding two base Saiyans together and them transforming into a SSJ in their fused form would ever get their powerlevel anywhere near a character who has the power of two individuals over SSJ3 Goku, himself and Gohan. It doesn't matter how strong Goku and Vegeta are in base. They would have to be much stronger than their base forms to even put a fight up against Buuhan if the Potara didn't do something to increase their power further. If we look at it this way.
Base Goku: 10
SSJ3 Goku: 10*400 = 4,000
Base Vegeta: 10
Base Vegito: 20
SSJ Vegito : 20*50 = 1,000
Now lets assume Gohan and Evil Boo(Super Boo) were on par with SSJ3 Goku for arguments sake.
Evil Boo: 4,000
Gohan: 4,000
Buuhan: 8,000
As you can see SSJ Vegito would be 8x weaker than Buuhan. And if you are going to increase Goku and Vegeta's battle powers then you will have to do the same for Gohan and Evil Boo who are stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Whatever Goku's base battle power is Evil Boo and Gohan are going to be at least 400 times stronger than that. So it doesn't matter where you place Goku and Vegeta's battle powers. They could be stronger than Freeza or weaker than him. The results would always be the same unless the Potara fusion has a hidden modifier like the Fusion dance does. That is why it doesn't matter what you argue about Goku and Vegeta's battle powers in regard to Freeza's.
Last edited by Hitiro on Wed May 15, 2013 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Honestly I would say Goku is slightly stronger than Freeza since that's how my battle powers scaled come this movie. Also, Goku did say he was only using 80% battle power against Beers as a SSJ God during a fight so it wouldn't shock me if Goku was only at 50-80% power in front of Beers. Either way though the base Saiyan's, more specifically Goku and Vegeta, are around Freeza. We could also easily assume that Freeza was stronger back in the day since he became a couch potato for 20+ years.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
I don't think Gohan meant that regarding Kibito. I think Gohan didn't want to show that he was capable of superhuman abilities by having to have a real fight with Kibito. Going into class the next day after flying around and hitting with intense force could be all that he was talking about.
Mjb1985 wrote:I don't think Gohan meant that regarding Kibito. I think Gohan didn't want to show that he was capable of superhuman abilities by having to have a real fight with Kibito. Going into class the next day after flying around and hitting with intense force could be all that he was talking about.
The Daizenshuus state that Kibito would give base Gohan a good fight.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
What does that prove? Gohan had to be a SSJ to handle it for a while. Gohan also knows how to manage his Ki better than Kibito so it makes sense he can lift the sword where he can't.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
What does that prove? Gohan had to be a SSJ to handle it for a while. Gohan also knows how to manage his Ki better than Kibito so it makes sense he can lift the sword where he can't.
This. And I personally go by the theory that the sword was cursed against being liftable by Kaioshins anyway.
I just think that AT is showing us that Base Gohan is way stronger than Kibito. Kibito cannot deadlift something that Gohan can swing around. That can be taken as an enormous difference in ability imo.
Mjb1985 wrote:I just think that AT is showing us that Base Gohan is way stronger than Kibito. Kibito cannot deadlift something that Gohan can swing around. That can be taken as an enormous difference in ability imo.
Well the Daizenshuus say otherwise. There is no reason to go against it when Gohan simply manages his Ki better. Goku can also lift and swing the Z-Sword around with no prior training where it took SSJ Gohan to just lift. Is base Goku stronger than SSJ Gohan? I don't think so, the Z-Sword shouldn't and doesn't decide anything.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours." Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/ThePrinceOfSaiyajins My 3DS Friend Code:
2707-1669-7946
Base Gohan was able to lift it and swing it as well. I find the Zeta Sword exchange to be a direct contradiction to the Daiz commentary regarding Kibito and Gohan. So I don't accept it.
It's possible Kibito is that strong during the Budokai I will admit. But he is seriously downgraded as the saga continues. I think AT kind of goes one way and then later is like meh, let me to this way.
Mjb1985 wrote:
It's possible Kibito is that strong during the Budokai I will admit. But he is seriously downgraded as the saga continues. I think AT kind of goes one way and then later is like meh, let me to this way.
If you are going to use this kind of thinking, then you would have to accept that SSJ3 Goku being stronger than Gohan and Gotenks is possible. Toryama could have just changed his mind, and powered up Goku because he felt like it.
In-universe, nothing keeps Kibito from being that strong. It's not like he's strong enough to actually do anything, so we never get to see any feats.
Exactly. The only feat we see is him being way weaker than Base Gohan. Makes me question his early suggestion. Which doesn't have to be taken as a statement of Super Saiyan power anyhow.
Ssj3 Goku will be as strong as AT makes him. He can do what he wants, he's the author. Nothing suggested that Goku surpassed Gotenks or Gohan though. So I don't see a need for that.
Mjb1985 wrote:Exactly. The only feat we see is him being way weaker than Base Gohan. Makes me question his early suggestion. Which doesn't have to be taken as a statement of Super Saiyan power anyhow.
Ssj3 Goku will be as strong as AT makes him. He can do what he wants, he's the author. Nothing suggested that Goku surpassed Gotenks or Gohan though. So I don't see a need for that.
If you think that Pure Buu is stronger than Super Buu, then making Goku stronger than Gotenks at least is necessary. Which is easy if you think that Toryama made Goku stronger for no reason.
Gohan couldn't lift the sword in base either, at the beginning. We only see him lifting it in base after he's been training awhile, and he is specifically noted to have become stronger.
The story suggests that they weakened Buu by removing his Absorbtions. That was the entire point of getting absorbed. There are numerous statements saying that Buu is now a lot more manageable.
If Kid Buu > Pure Buu , they would have used fusion or done Potara again. So there's a wealth of information contradicting Goku being stronger than he was against Fat Buu. All we know is that he could have beat him, which seemed suggested anyhow during the time.
Gohan was able to immediately lift the sword in Base. He didn't need to train to lift it.
Mjb1985 wrote:The story suggests that they weakened Buu by removing his Absorbtions. That was the entire point of getting absorbed. There are numerous statements saying that Buu is now a lot more manageable.
If Kid Buu > Pure Buu , they would have used fusion or done Potara again. So there's a wealth of information contradicting Goku being stronger than he was against Fat Buu. All we know is that he could have beat him, which seemed suggested anyhow during the time.
Gohan was able to immediately lift the sword in Base. He didn't need to train to lift it.
But then Buu is said to get stronger as he reverts to Buff Buu. After he turns into Pure Buu, Vegeta insults him, but he uses a term that has been regularly used in the series to mean actual physical size, and Goku agrees with him. Vegeta has already refused fusion; why bother trying again? Goku says that he wasn't going all out against Fat Buu, so we don't actually know how much power he was holding back. Toryama making Goku stronger just because would fit all this perfectly.
Not that I actually believe that. Just playing Devil's Advocate
And, you're right about him wielding it in base. Still, physical strength is only a small aspect of power. Kaioshin was weaker than the Super Saiyans, yet he put up as good of a fight as Gohan did against Buu. Kibito has magical powers as well, just because his physical strength didn't match Gohan's, doesn't mean he didn't rival him in power.
