Base Saiyans and Freeza

[Saiyan Prince Vegeta]

Well the story Toriyama wrote was basically the script (he himself said he wrote the script) and they had to cut it down because what he did was 120 minutes long (I think Toriyama said that). Also Watanabe would create a story suggestion and show it to Toriyama. Toriyama would then reject it, or accept it and build up on it. He also came up with a backstory for Beers so it would work for him, he even fits it in with the manga when asked why is Kaios planet so small in the full colour manga Q&A page.

Anyway, it's likely Toriyama came up with the Freeza statement himself or just accepted it. Also, I don't fancy getting into a canon debate, I just wanted to clear some things up.

[Mjb1985]

Is Kaio's new planet ever suggested to have 10x gravity like his old one in the movie? I'd be pretty interested in they because how that would effect Goku's training weights in the Buu Saga.

Goku was wearing 2 tons on each limb, if he was on a 10x gravity planet than would be 20 tons on each limb. Definitely a significant difference.

[RandomGuy96]

Well the story Toriyama wrote was basically the script (he himself said he wrote the script) and they had to cut it down because what he did was 120 minutes long (I think Toriyama said that). Also Watanabe would create a story suggestion and show it to Toriyama. Toriyama would then reject it, or accept it and build up on it. He also came up with a backstory for Beers so it would work for him, he even fits it in with the manga when asked why is Kaios planet so small in the full colour manga Q&A page.

You got a source for that?

And I just wanted to point out that just because the Daiz has Freeza at 120 and Goku at 150 doesn't mean you necessarily have to take that as a fact, let alone let that fight determine every single gap in the series.

I personally view the manga scouter numbers on a different tier than the guidebook numbers and when the guidebook logic matches up well with what the manga is going with, then sure, I don't have any issue following them. But when they start seeming like a stretch in comparison, I generally disregard them.

For me I would have to have Freeza at 140-145 million based on my interpretation. I also wouldn't be able to have Nappa at 4,000 either. There is just too many conflicting issues for me, but others find ways around it.

I have tried it that way but I find it easier to just slightly adjust the guidebook numbers than run into theories on why Freeza was more skilled than Goku or why Nappa is more durable than Cell. It seems easier to just make some minor adjustments imo, but any way you want to go about it is fine.

But regardless of the option you pick, I don't think Freeza vs Goku is a good fight to determine your whole point of view on how fights to percentage wise. If you are using the guidebook numbers you are better suited with an opinion like Kaboom in which there isn't a strict percentage gap means fight should look like this mentality.

If you are in that group who tries to do that, you should probably take a look at all the power battles given, fights shown that correlate with them and make your own assumptions.

I let it determine the gaps because it gels well with what's already in the series, and it's official and author-approved. In fact I don't think any power level gaps shown in the series are unworkable with the guidebooks. The only numbers that I think are suspect are Kami's 220, Roshi's 180, Cooler's Squadron's <200,000 levels, Raditz's 1,500, and Nappa's 4,000, and I still accept the latter, even if requires a bit more stretching than I'd like.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

“Battle of Gods” Theatrical Pamphlet - Comment From Original Manga Author, Akira Toriyama
Apparently, it’s been 17 whole years since the last animated Dragon Ball movie! To be able to have a new work made after so many years and months have passed, I have to thank all the people who have given their support. For all the animation up to now, I’ve basically just left everything up [to the staff], so this is my first try at being involved starting from the story’s creation. At any rate, it was quite a long time ago that I drew Dragon Ball, so I had to start by working to remember it. I pulled out the comics [i.e., the tankōbon] of my own work, which it’s fair to say I never look at; and as I flipped through it, even though I’ve gotten older, as you’d expect of the original creator, I was quickly able to recapture the feeling from back then. The keywords this time, “God of Destruction Beerus” and “Super Saiyan God”, were suggestions from the scriptwriter, but they were good ideas for presenting a crisis for the main characters, who had grown so strong that they’d reached a point where there was nothing higher. I borrowed these ideas, and after first deciding on Beerus’ character design and background, I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga's] serialization had continued. The God of Destruction Beerus, who I drew the design for myself (something I don’t usually do), is a terrifying opponent so overwhelmingly strong that he surpasses the dimension of the previous enemies. But it’s my trademark to not let things get too dark. At the very least, I’m satisfied that it’s been finished up as a very entertaining piece of work.

---

Mandō Kobayashi Interview with Akira Toriyama
Q: I heard that this is the first time you’ve been deeply involved with the script of a movie; please tell us the reason.
A: The catalyst was that, first of all, when the script originally came to me, there was a lot of the sort of dialogue that only the creator would know, so I thought, “that bothers me”, and then this and that also started to get on my mind, and so rather than telling them to revise each individual thing, I thought it might be faster if I just wrote the script myself.

---

DVD & Blu-ray Vision, April 2013 Issue - Scriptwriter Yūsuke Watanabe Interview

Q: What sort of work was it making the story with Toriyama-sensei?
A: First, I’d create a story suggestion with concepts such as Beerus, God of Destruction, in it, and have Toriyama-sensei look at it; Toriyama-sensei got into it, saying, “Well, how about this sort of story?”, and would make it even better like that. Since there were length considerations, I would sort of stretch that out and make it into a script.

Q: So you had a rapport sort of like a game of catch.
A: We went back and forth two or three times.

Q: Were there any ideas that made you think, “as expected of Toriyama-sensei“?
A: The story I received was about 60 minutes, so I created a development where the Dragon Balls are stolen by a group of thieves, who were new characters. Then Toriyama-sensei told me, “Since we’re going with an all-star cast, let’s have the Pilaf gang steal them”. With this change, the feeling of a reunion, or a special, was upped even more. Also, I felt that being able to create characters that aren’t necessary in terms of the story, but still interesting, is something only Toriyama-sensei can do, and no ordinary idea.

---

So, in short, it seems as if Watanabe wrote a script and gave it to Toriyama to look over. Toriyama decided to write a version himself as if he was continuing the manga, and then Watanabe expanded on the version he was given back by tossing more ideas back and forth between the two of them.

[Bussani]

Is Kaio's new planet ever suggested to have 10x gravity like his old one in the movie? I'd be pretty interested in they because how that would effect Goku's training weights in the Buu Saga.

Goku was training on planet Heaven in the Buu arc, not a Kaio planet. I suppose it's not impossible that Heaven might have more gravity than Earth, but other than that seeming a bit weird to me, you'd think they would have mentioned it. Even the guide that explained why that training was extra challenging didn't mention higher gravity being a factor.

[Mjb1985]

That's interesting. They had it called Planet Heaven in a guide or the movie?

[Draken]

It doesn't even matter what the gravity was for the weights... 10 tons is 10 tons. Maybe on Earth it'd weigh more or less, but on that planet the gravity made it 10 tons. It's not like they said 10 earth tons and we didn't factor in the gravity difference.

[Mjb1985]

That's a good way of looking at it. I'm going to start looking at it that way.

[Bussani]

That's interesting. They had it called Planet Heaven in a guide or the movie?

Daizenshuu 4 identified it as Heaven.

Heaven

The planet where those who have been judged by Enma Daio to be good people reside. Goku trained here heading into the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai.

It's a very large planet floating between Enma's palace and the Dai Kaio's world.

It doesn't even matter what the gravity was for the weights... 10 tons is 10 tons. Maybe on Earth it'd weigh more or less, but on that planet the gravity made it 10 tons. It's not like they said 10 earth tons and we didn't factor in the gravity difference.

Weeell...tons can be used as either a measurement of weight or a measurement of mass, so it is technically possible to say something like: "This is ten tons (mass), but under this gravity, it weighs twenty tons." I don't think Toriyama would make it that obtuse, however; I believe he said ten tons and forty tons because he thought that sounded impressive. And compared to how much Goku and Vegeta would have weighed in the gravity they trained in before, forty tons is impressive.

[Draken]

That's interesting. They had it called Planet Heaven in a guide or the movie?

Daizenshuu 4 identified it as Heaven.

Heaven

The planet where those who have been judged by Enma Daio to be good people reside. Goku trained here heading into the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai.

It's a very large planet floating between Enma's palace and the Dai Kaio's world.

It doesn't even matter what the gravity was for the weights... 10 tons is 10 tons. Maybe on Earth it'd weigh more or less, but on that planet the gravity made it 10 tons. It's not like they said 10 earth tons and we didn't factor in the gravity difference.

Weeell...tons can be used as either a measurement of weight or a measurement of mass, so it is technically possible to say something like: "This is ten tons (mass), but under this gravity, it weighs twenty tons." I don't think Toriyama would make it that obtuse, however; I believe he said ten tons and forty tons because he thought that sounded impressive. And compared to how much Goku and Vegeta would have weighed in the gravity they trained in before, forty tons is impressive.

I have thought of that, then I thought it's Toriyama and I came to the same conclusion you did, he meant 10 and 40 tons as 10 and 40 tons, without getting all science-ey. And it IS impressive. People don't seem to realize that moving around, throwing rapid punches and kicks with weights attached to the ends of your arms and legs is VERY different from pure, heaving weight lifting. Try attaching a 30 pound wristband and throwing a punch. Now try benching/dead-lifting 30 pounds. Note the different. 40 tons is quite impressive considering his ease.

[RandomGuy96]

While flying.

[Draken]

Yea. Obviously I don't know the exact math (since there probably isn't) but I'm quite confident that doing that is at least 2x harder than heavy lifting. Goku should easily lift 80 tons with ease in SSJ.

[Mjb1985]

Oh yea I agree with that. Putting on weights on your legs and arms is only but a small percentage of what you can lift.

Goku would be in the illustrious 100 ton Class in bench pressing ability easily IN BASE! Goku ain't weak by Marvel standards at all.

[Draken]

Oh yea I agree with that. Putting on weights on your legs and arms is only but a small percentage of what you can lift.

Goku would be in the illustrious 100 ton Class in bench pressing ability easily IN BASE! Goku ain't weak by Marvel standards at all.

Many people wouldn't agree because of that stupid filler scene (lol ScrewAttack) but yea pretty much. It's as crazy as needed Krillin to lift rocks for Goku even though he can bench press a planet

[Mjb1985]

I really like how BOG had Goku punching through Kaio's planet.

[Draken]

I really like how BOG had Goku punching through Kaio's planet.

Oh I personally thought that wasn't amazingly impressive seeing the size of the planet and the fact that it was Goku's full power punch in SSJ3... should get someone to do the math on that one

[dbzfan7]

I really like how BOG had Goku punching through Kaio's planet.

Oh I personally thought that wasn't amazingly impressive seeing the size of the planet and the fact that it was Goku's full power punch in SSJ3... should get someone to do the math on that one

It's got tens times the gravity of earth and possibly ten times the density. Also I think if Goku used his base strength and lifted with all his might in a single point he could be in the 100 tons class. He can't do that with the weights on each arm, but I believe he can with bench pressing or using his legs. I tend to find when combining your bodies strength on a single point you can double the amount you can lift or more as you can use all your might instead of dividing it.

[RandomGuy96]

That lifting is still rather unimpressive for star/solar system busters.

[Cardle grave]

King kai world has 10x gravity, So it would make sense if otherworld has much more since it is a training ground.

[TheMightyOzaru]

King kai world has 10x gravity, So it would make sense if otherworld has much more since it is a training ground.

I honestly don't see why a heavenly plain would have heavy gravity... Even if it did, Goku wouldn't weigh anymore since 10 tons is still 10 tons under any gravity.