Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

[Blade]

If that was the case, then why broadcast Kai on Nicktoons?

Nicktoons purchased the broadcast rights from Funimation, that's their prerogative as a broadcaster. Funimation will have sold to the highest bidder, that is, supposing there was more than one.

Also, if they understood it, why would we get "your father was a brillaint scientist"?

It's a bad adaptation. They may have thought they were adapting it for young kids but I think they underestimated the intelligence of their audience.

Why purchase the rights to something if you are going to make such significant deviations?

The names, faces and brands are all intact - Funimation's changes did little to effect the major narrative events of the series but to instead a fashion a tone and feel that they felt would be understandable and attractive to Western viewers. Why do that? Well, for starters to try and generate as large of an audience as possible, which in turn would guarantee a healthy financial return. I don't think that from a business point of view the motivation to implement the changes are particularly difficult to understand, but obviously as staunch fans of the original it can be difficult to detach ones self, making them rather difficult to swallow.

Whether you agree or disagree with the changes that Funimation made and the grounds on which they made them isn't really important, it's still unfair to classify it as a bad dub in light of these unless absolute faithfulness to the original is your primary concern.

[samuraix123]

What are people talking about "your father was a brilliant scientist"?

Edit - Wow! Haha it's been a while since I watched the Ocean Dub. I have all the episodes but forgot all about this! Haha yeah...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_DFJ-OXTzQ that's funny

[Fennekin]

That said, in the United Kingdom at least, the decision to use the Ocean Dub was down to a series of disputes between Cartoon Network (CNX/Toonami) and Funimation.

What kind of disputes? I never heard of this.

[Blade]

That said, in the United Kingdom at least, the decision to use the Ocean Dub was down to a series of disputes between Cartoon Network (CNX/Toonami) and Funimation.

What kind of disputes? I never heard of this.

Back when the 'Fusion Saga' began on CNX suddenly the UK started to receive Funimation's dub of Dragonball Z again, having had the Ocean Dub since the Android Saga. However, after its first airing and several repeats CNX then reverted to the Ocean cast again, which CNX/Toonami stuck with until the end of Dragonball Z and on all subsequent repeats. At the time this completely mystified me, so I emailed CNX about it. They responded by telling me that the Ocean Dub was used due to an issue between Funimation and Cartoon Network UK, but that they had purchased a limited-run license of the 'Fusion Saga' from Funimation as the Ocean Dub for the the latter part of Z was not complete at the time - meaning that there would have been an unusually long wait for new episodes to be broadcast.

We're going back around 10 years here, but I still have access to the email account I used back then. I'll have a dig around a little later on and see if I have the exchange archived.

[ABED]

If that was the case, then why broadcast Kai on Nicktoons?

Nicktoons purchased the broadcast rights from Funimation, that's their prerogative as a broadcaster. Funimation will have sold to the highest bidder, that is, supposing there was more than one.

Also, if they understood it, why would we get "your father was a brillaint scientist"?

It's a bad adaptation. They may have thought they were adapting it for young kids but I think they underestimated the intelligence of their audience.

Why purchase the rights to something if you are going to make such significant deviations?

The names, faces and brands are all intact - Funimation's changes did little to effect the major narrative events of the series but to instead a fashion a tone and feel that they felt would be understandable and attractive to Western viewers. Why do that? Well, for starters to try and generate as large of an audience as possible, which in turn would guarantee a healthy financial return. I don't think that from a business point of view the motivation to implement the changes are particularly difficult to understand, but obviously as staunch fans of the original it can be difficult to detach ones self, making them rather difficult to swallow.

Whether you agree or disagree with the changes that Funimation made and the grounds on which they made them isn't really important, it's still unfair to classify it as a bad dub in light of these unless absolute faithfulness to the original is your primary concern.

Your point as to why they didn't change the music is conjecture. Keeping the same music for Kai just goes with their dubbing philosophy for about the past 10 years - keep it as close as possible. Faithfulness is my primary concern, but I understand their need to make money, but are you implying they aren't trying to make as much money now or that they couldn't have made the money they did without the big changes?

It's perfectly fair to call it a bad dub on those grounds. It isn't true to its source material, and plenty of names and plot points were changed.

You don't have to explain to me that they were trying to make changes to appeal to as large an audience as possible. You keep saying that and not once have I ever said I didn't understand that. My point of contention is that they likely didn't understand that the audience was going to like it regardless, and they underestimated the sophistication of their audience. Broadening appeal doesn't equal dumbing it down. Do you honestly think DBZ is so high brow kids couldn't get an accurate dub?

That fashion, tone and feel isn't their job to make. Changing that, it becomes something other than what it is. I assume they bought it because they felt the original already would appeal.

Have you read or heard something that told you who Kai's target audience was?

[Ryuji-Otogi]

Retaining the original music score and having an accurate script are held as a standard by all anime fans where dubs are concerned, not just DBZ. Nothing wrong with that. Changing shows a lot just so 'Western audiences' can enjoy them is from a different time. Or 4K!Ds now.

Kickuchi's Dragonball Z's score shows its age and did at the time that Funimation were dubbing the series, their choice to re-score it had something to do with freshening up and modernising the series. Modern anime dubs often keep the original score for two reasons: the music doesn't sound as dated or, the more likely of the two, they don't have the production budget to produce their own. For example: Kai using the Japanese score was entirely for budgetary reasons, there quite simply isn't the money available now that there was then.

Furthermore, the Faulconer production score was, in the words of Bruce himself, produced under a direct mandate to 'cater for a Western audience, ergo marketplace'. This is a lot more than just changing the music - the Faulconer score is entirely expressive of different themes and contains codified messages and symbolism that Western audiences can understand and identify more closely with. Notions of heroism and other themes that young male demographics tend to identify heavily with are interjected into Dragonball Z by Faulconer's score where they do not occur in either the Japanese dialogue or score. This is entirely intentional in Funimation's adaptation and it would appear by the millions of ten year old kids who bought into the idea during the Dragonball Z boom in North America that it was rather effective. If you happen to be interested I've actually written an academic paper on the very subject.

Funimation's adaptation was not meant disrespectfully and shouldn't be taken that way. Of course, hardcore fans who hold dear the original as sacred are always going to find issue with the changes - but like I mentioned previously, it's not a literal transliteration, it's an adaptation.

Kai changed to Kikuchi's music because of the Yamamoto-plagairism scandal. FUNimation retained the music in Kai's dub because they never change the music for any of their series anymore. And it's actually cheaper oftentimes for the dubbing companies to produce their own score in-house than it is to pay for the licensing fees and royalties for using the original Japanese tracks, which is why anime-music was almost always replaced in the 90s. I agree the Faulconer music was made to 'spice up' DBZ, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Dubs should be translated accurately and retain the original music score--which FUNimation itself admits today and commits to the practice with every dub they produce. I don't see why you're trying so hard to justify an outdated practice that no one even does anymore, save for companies like 4K!Ds.

[kei17]

Kickuchi's Dragonball Z's score shows its age and did at the time that Funimation were dubbing the series, their choice to re-score it had something to do with freshening up and modernising the series.

And it's that kind of "modernizing" nonsense what's so self-indulgent of them. I don't think the Kikuchi score would have been any kind of drawbacks in the U.S. market at the time because it has been accepted in every non-English-speaking country without any problem, even in the 21st century. I do think that localization is needed if there are any problems about social norms or religions, like cutting scenes with Bulma dressing in sexually-revealing clothes for the Arabic dub, but adding silly jokes and replacing the original score with non-stopping low budget techno music are not parts of "localization". They're just wrong acts based on old myths and rather an unconscious insult to the original creators. As they say, don't fix it if it ain't broke.

While the FUNi Z dub is not the worst, it certainly is one of the most "sinful" dubs.

[ABED]

I'm 27, and I don't know what appeals to kids. You think businessmen in their 30s do?

To answer the topic question, I don't know since I don't watch enough anime, but it's certainly awful in many parts. Funi was still finding their bearings, but I wish they hadn't with this series.

[B]

It doesn't have to be the worst dub to be terrible. It's mesmerizing the qualifiers and technicalities fans look for to justify what they like.

Oh, and on the music: Gen Fukunaga admitted the music was changed because FUNimation would make money for every $econd the Faulconer $core played on TV. That'$ why there are zero $ilent $cene$ and it'$ $o difficult to di$cern where one track end$ and another begin$/

[Blade]

It doesn't have to be the worst dub to be terrible. It's mesmerizing the qualifiers and technicalities fans look for to justify what they like.

Oh, and on the music: Gen Fukunaga admitted the music was changed because FUNimation would make money for every $econd the Faulconer $core played on TV. That'$ why there are zero $ilent $cene$ and it'$ $o difficult to di$cern where one track end$ and another begin$/

Just to clarify: I'm not particularly a fan of the Funimation dub and I am not defending the creative license they took. I'm merely attempting to be objective on the matter as to evoke a meaningful debate in what could easily become just another generic and mindless Funimation bashing topic. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think it's fair to label that the Funimation dub is a bad production simply on the grounds that it made changes to the tone and content of the show. Those were creative decisions that were made to adapt the show for a North American audience, and regardless of if I find them to be tasteful or not, they are part and parcel of what was a essentially a highly successful production.

There are so many factors one could look at when determining the quality of a dub, things such as the voice acting and the production values - both in terms of audio and the handling of the animation to name just a few. It seems that so often a wider debate is sacrificed in the name of relentlessly obsessing over minor Americanisations or changes to the dialogue without much thought given as to why Funimation made them or indeed the wider successes of Funimation's adaptation. Everything else is more often than not ignored or simply not considered as it falls outside the red-misted hue of defensive fanboy-ism - and you know what? I think that's a real shame on a forum like this with so many wonderfully knowledgeable and intelligent fans of the series.

[Blade]

Oh, and on the music: Gen Fukunaga admitted the music was changed because FUNimation would make money for every $econd the Faulconer $core played on TV. That'$ why there are zero $ilent $cene$ and it'$ $o difficult to di$cern where one track end$ and another begin$/

As far as I'm aware Faulconer gets the lion share of the royalties.

[Hellspawn28]

I seen dubs that are worst, but I just find the pre-Kai dubs overrated because people just wank them and act like that they are the best dubs ever. I feel like just because you grow up with it that does not make it good. I just hate the stupid jokes and corny lines to just make the series more americanize. It seems like they did this a lot during the 80's up to the early 2000's when it came to Japanese shows coming to the US.

[Blade]

I seen dubs that are worst, but I just find the pre-Kai dubs overrated because people just wank them and act like that they are the best dubs ever.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but couldn't this also be said of fans who were first exposed to the Japanese? It's my case in point when it comes to the endless Funi-bashing, there's an over sentimentality within the fandom.

[B]

I wasn't trying to curb anyone's discussion... or maybe I was subconsciously, since it seems like this topic comes up often. Considering the backlash against the dub, it seems that every now and again people go around fishing for any compliment that can be found, no matter how small. "Yes, they did all that, but what about this stuff?! This stuff wasn't so bad, right? Right? Tell me I'm right!"

That may or may not have been the goal of this thread.

[OutlawTorn]

The dub is flawed, for sure, but I wouldn't say it is the worst dub. The thing is, and it doesn't matter if any of us agrees with it or not, in order to get the most exposure for the product on television, FUNimation would have to abide by whatever content restrictions were imposed upon them. With Saban, that meant removing references to death and brought about some of the more ridiculous lines to step around that. I have no idea about what Cartoon Network's influence might have been, but when FUNimation was revising the dialogue for the ultimate uncut and season set releases, they certainly had a golden opportunity to present an even better product for home video. It's just too bad they didn't take full advantage of that opportunity.

I think it's just easy to demonize the FUNimation dub as it certainly appears to be the most circulated of the dubs.

[ABED]

I get why certain changes needed to be made to many lines in order to meet broadcast standards, but if you look at the difference between broadcast Kai and home video Kai, they did a much better job than when they did the same scene in DBZ. Meeting broadcast standards doesn't lead to "mondo cool" or Freeza's personality change.

[dbzfan7]

Not the worst. Just not that good.

[Super Sonic]

Kickuchi's Dragonball Z's score shows its age and did at the time that Funimation were dubbing the series, their choice to re-score it had something to do with freshening up and modernising the series.

And it's that kind of "modernizing" nonsense what's so self-indulgent of them. I don't think the Kikuchi score would have been any kind of drawbacks in the U.S. market at the time because it has been accepted in every non-English-speaking country without any problem, even in the 21st century. I do think that localization is needed if there are any problems about social norms or religions, like cutting scenes with Bulma dressing in sexually-revealing clothes for the Arabic dub, but adding silly jokes and replacing the original score with non-stopping low budget techno music are not parts of "localization". They're just wrong acts based on old myths and rather an unconscious insult to the original creators. As they say, don't fix it if it ain't broke.

While the FUNi Z dub is not the worst, it certainly is one of the most "sinful" dubs.

You know you guys changed music in our cartoons too right?

And while changed and not aging well, I'd rather sit through season 3's dub again, than watch the accurate dub of Funimation's worst series, Master of Martial Hearts.

Will say, I'm surprised a lot of non-native English speakers have such bad opinions on the English dub. Thought you'd guys have the same "We don't care what you foreigners do" mindset that most Americans have of foreign dubs of US cartoons.

[matt0044]

And while changed and not aging well, I'd rather sit through season 3's dub again, than watch the accurate dub of Funimation's worst series, Master of Martial Hearts.

That has less to do with FUNi's involvement and more to do with how it was produced in Japan.

[Ringworm128]

The worst is the Westwood/Ocean dub, it's like the Funimation dub except actually bad.