Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

[Blade]

And why's that funny? Do you find it impossible to grasp that some people actually like and prefer his score?

This kind of attitude goes a distance to emphasise my problem with a good portion of the online Dragonball fanbase. If someone said that they found Dragonball unwatchable without Kikuchi's score no-one would bat an eye-lid as if it's objectively correct and proper. There's an insufferable tendency to treat the fashionable view points as objective, unshakeable facts - but really it comes down to little more than closed-mindedness, snobbery and elitism.

Yeah, I do find it impossible, since the Faulconer music makes almost zero sense for the show. It's a bunch of cold, soulless, generic dreck that overemphasizes superficial elements.

That really ends my interest in even attempting to debate with you. You're clearly not someone who is willing to or capable of looking beyond your own staunch opinions by your attempt to dress them as a solid fact. There's no point engaging ignorance, I may as well hit my head against a brick wall.

As someone who has carried out academic musical analysis, ergo, I know what I'm talking about, I can categorically say that that Faulconer's score has a great deal more function than that which you outline. Regardless of if you like the score or not, you're quite wrong to dismiss its entire function based on your personal preferences.

[Rocketman]

I'm sorry, but I can't conceive of a world where it's possible to bash that voice too much. That such an offense to human ears exists astounds me. Almost any other dubism I can grudgingly accept as a matter of taste, but this is just literally painful to endure. It is truly a cruel and unusual crime against hearing.

And yet you defend Nozawa.

[penguintruth]

That really ends my interest in even attempting to debate with you. You're clearly not someone who is willing to or capable of looking beyond your own staunch opinions by your attempt to dress them as a solid fact. There's no point engaging ignorance, I may as well hit my head against a brick wall.

As someone who has carried out academic musical analysis, ergo, I know what I'm talking about, I can categorically say that that Faulconer's score has a great deal more function than that which you outline. Regardless of if you like the score or not, you're quite wrong to dismiss its entire function based on your personal preferences.

Ah, a convenient excuse for retreat, before you've even engaged in a debate. I see you have no argument to the contrary.

Analyze what you will, but a show that is essentially wuxia is far better suited with orchestral music that brings out a sense of palpable energy rather than drones with noisy superficiality in an attempt to rile up only base expectations of professional wrestling "badassery". It's not even very good at that.

[Blade]

Analyze what you will, but a show that is essentially wuxia is far better suited with orchestral music that brings out a sense of palpable energy rather than drones with noisy superficiality in an attempt to rile up only base expectations of professional wrestling "badassery". It's not even very good at that.

It's interesting you say that, actually, as Kikuchi uses drones quite often in his score. That is, drone in the sense of the the actual musical device that goes by that name. Faulconer Productions on the other hand, less so. The Faulconer score pays more attention to leitmotif and emphasis of location, whereas Kikuchi's score is more concerned with vectorising dramatic events as basis for audience emotion. Of course, each score is entirely tailored towards representing specific themes that occur in the dialogue, which in the Funimation dub are often different from the Japanese original. A marked difference can also be observed in how the Faulconer score uses many devices that have historic roots in American cartoon scoring, such as emphasis of movement or 'mickey-mousing'. The Kikuchi score however, whilst owing much to Western musical tradition and instrumentation (he often composes in blues minor pentatonic), doesn't tend to use the aforementioned functions. If you want to actually have a basis of understanding for these sort of things yourself you don't need to go to film scoring school or have industry experience, as I do - but I'd recommend a couple of books to get you started. Michel Chion's 'Audiovisual' and Zofia Lissa's 'Aesthetics of film music' will give you a pretty good start-point on which to move forward on. A basic grasp of semiotics would also be useful, but perhaps that's somewhat outside the limited scope of the exercise.

Ah, a convenient excuse for retreat, before you've even engaged in a debate. I see you have no argument to the contrary.

I have a feeling that it doesn't matter what I say, how much evidence I provide or how extensively I pick apart what you're saying - I don't think for a moment that you're going to step outside your staunch opinions and engage in an actual debate. Saying that you like or dislike a certain score is entirely different from analysing actual musical function, and I don't think for minute that you're either interesting in doing so or willing to do so for any purpose as to defend your personal feelings.

And then there's also the time I would have to invest in the process, which I suspect under the aforementioned pretenses would be time wasted on my behalf.

[Insertclevername]

I asked myself--and them--the same thing. I wish I could say "no".........*sigh*.......but apparently, some people do.

I get comments on my videos saying Kai is unwatchable without Faulconer's music

I don't get that mentality at all. I've watched plenty of otherwise good shows with bad music, and still enjoyed them.

For what it's worth, I switched to the Japanese version because of how annoyed I was from the droning Falconer score.

[ABED]

Blade, can you find a link to any Kikuchi pieces where there's droning?

I don't understand musical theory and can't begin to explain in the terms you use why I like certain pieces but I like what I like and find the orchestral score way more fitting than Faulconer's music. I think Faulconer's score has some good bits here and there, by themselves, but as a score, they don't belong. Please don't write back "that's your opinion". Of course it is, unless I write otherwise, please take it as a given, because I don't want to have to write, "in my opinion" all the time. I don't always agree with how Penguintruth expresses himself, but I do find myself agreeing with him a lot. He was right that Faulconer often puts emphasis on superficial elements. His Bulma theme is so damn annoying. It conveys "airhead" when that couldn't be further from the truth. Vain, sure, but not vapid. His music when Gohan turned SS2 was SOOOOOO disappointing. "spirit vs spirit" isn't everyone's taste, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of Faulconer's drone. I can't even remember it.

The monster truck announcer voice was annoying and sounded like the actors were trying to hard. That's not Dragon Ball at all. The narrator needs to sound avuncular. Starting from the very first episode of Dragon Ball, it's told in the style of an old tale of magic and martial arts. Journey to the West was one of the big influences on the show. Brice Armstrong was the perfect choice for a narrator, and for Kaio. Sean Schemmel has become a great fit for Goku, but not for Kaio. It's arguable that his voice fits Kaio's appearance, but that's the thing - why does that matter more than if it's a good voice? I find it grating to listen to even at its best. Yanami's voice also fit, but he could also convey wise martial arts master. I can't take Schemmel's voice remotely serious. I wonder what FUNi would have done had they not been told to cast soundalikes, and had access to the Japanese version.

As to the person who said "and yet you defend Nozawa" I'll defend that choice to the day I die. She is Son Goku!

The Faulconer score pays more attention to leitmotif and emphasis of location, whereas Kikuchi's score is more concerned with vectorising dramatic events as basis for audience emotion.

If I understand you right, you are saying essentially, Faulconer puts more emphasis on location and character themes, whereas Kikuchi puts more emphasis on drama and emotion. If that's the case, I'd much rather the latter. Emotion is what drama is about! I enjoy a good character theme as much as the next guy, but give me a stirring score any day of the week, such as when Goku saves Gohan from Nappa.

Most of those come from the "season 3" dub. And the Dubku = Super Man thing is another thing I find to be over exaggerate, he had a couple of speeches, that's it. Apart from that he was a general "nice guy" character. Kyle Herbert is a great narrator and the narrator isn't that important anyway, you could use just about any voice and it would work. Schemmel's King Kai is another voice that gets bashed way too much, the voice fits his appearance and the performance fits his character. "But he's supposed to sound like a wise god!" Well the Japanese voice didn't exactly sound "god/sage like" either.

The narrator may not be an important voice to you, but he's in every episode and sets the tone of the show. I think it's very important. Not anyone can do the job. They need a distinct voice and not one that sounds like they are trying too hard. Hebert is good at many things, DBZ narrator isn't one, especially given the writing he has to deliver. Yanami does sound like a wise god, plus I like the contrast to the appearance. His voice fits the appearance, just not in the way you with guess at first. Lastly, yes, those lines were from the season 3 dub, and it did get slightly better over time, but Goku isn't just a "nice guy", nor is he Superman. I don't think they really got his character until around the Buu arc. Season 4 has its fair share of overall badness -

"Guess who joined the Super Saiyan club", "cat loves food...", Tien: "Is his shoe size a secret too?" Yamcha- "Does he have a secret spy decoder ring?", Vegeta: "I stopped caring about being better than Kakarott." Krillin: This plan is half baked. Piccolo: No it fully baked., Krillin: "Wow, that Android's toast!" Piccolo: "More like...burnt toast.", Karin: "...What's shakin'", Yamcha (while carrying Goku): He's put on some weight, Krillin: Cut him some slack he's been sick., Gohan: Piccolo grabed the grabber!, Gohan's speech inside his head about how he can feel his anger slipping.

[kei17]

It's interesting you say that, actually, as Kikuchi uses drones quite often in his score. That is, drone in the sense of the the actual musical device that goes by that name. Faulconer Productions on the other hand, less so. The Faulconer score pays more attention to leitmotif and emphasis of location, whereas Kikuchi's score is more concerned with vectorising dramatic events as basis for audience emotion.

I guess you don't know much about the Kikuchi score. About 80% of its tracks were composed for movies, and they have many characters' specific leitmotifs. Even Kami has it in DBZ movie 1. They were made in the same way as that of the Faulconer score except for non-stopping Mickey Mousing. They reused the movie scores for the TV series, and leitmotifs in them were cared less there because the pieces would have had fewer opportunities for being used if you care too much about each leitmotif. It's the staff of the TV series who chose to "vectorize dramatic events as basis for audience emotion" and that's not Kikuchi's way of composition.

You know you guys changed music in our cartoons too right?

They're just openings and not scores in actual episodes. I've never seen any Japanese dubs of American cartoons with repacement music. Anyway, that "but you did it too" logic doesn't really work here.

[90sDBZ]

Well I for one think Faulconer's score suits DBZ perfectly. Apart from some peaceful scenes or comedy scenes where stupid music plays and makes the scene fall flat I feel like its great.

And I agree that this whole elitist attitude among the fanbase does become most tiresome. You might not think that Faulconer was right for DBZ but that doesn't change the fact that millions of fans love it and think that it fits perfectly.

Now I can't say I agree with people who say it's unwatchable without Faulconer. Imo it's a great show that stands up well enough on its own. But for me personally and many others it enhances the experience and makes many scenes much more memorable.

This whole attitude of people saying "Faulconer sucks. FACT" really needs to change. It's very dismissive of other fans and their opinions. If the Funimation dub was the original version and the Japanese version was the adapted version then I bet things would be very different. Just because Kikuchi was the original it doesn't mean that a different creative approach is unacceptable. You might not care for it but others do so don't dismiss them as fools just because they have different opinions.

I for one can't stand DBZ with Megaman music like in the Westwood dub but I acknowledge that there are those out there that actually enjoy it, and even know I can't comprehend how they could possibly think that way I know that they aren't "wrong" and have every right to like that version.

[Majin Buu]

And I agree that this whole elitist attitude among the fanbase does become most tiresome. You might not think that Faulconer was right for DBZ but that doesn't change the fact that millions of fans love it and think that it fits perfectly.

A lot of people liking something doesn't make it good. Millions of people can like stuff that's terrible. I'm not saying people can't like what they like, just that "lots of people like it" isn't a good argument in a discussion of whether or not it's good.

[ABED]

A good argument can be made that Faulconer doesn't understand the show he's scoring. For instance, Bulma's level of intelligence, or that Goku turning Super Saiyan for the first time is supposed to be a tense moment, not a badass moment.

"50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong" isn't a great argument. It's argumentum ad populum. Feel free to like it, but numbers don't equal quality or lack thereof.

[aarondirebear]

I certainly do.
What truly grates me is the fact that when they dub other anime they keep the original music in...with DragonballZ they single it out to make a mockery of it. They also ruin the characterization of several key characters (especially Kuririn).

[aarondirebear]

It is not its inaccurate script but its "we made it funnier and better" like self-indulgent feeling what makes it so bad. "Modifying" the script works only when the original is full of flaws or simply boring, but it is unneeded and can be very rude to the original creators if the show is well made and enjoyable as-is.

You have to view Funimation's dub as not a like-for-like transliteration of Dragonball Z from Japanese to English but instead an adaptation to cater for a Western audience/market place. Funimation wanted to convey the show in the most understandable and recognisable format for the young American demographic they were targeting, which is unfortunately lost on, or occasionally found to be sacrilege, by fans of the show who are used to the original.

Excuse the expression but it is what it is and it does what it does - both rather successfully in terms of generating popularity and garnering a wide audience, actually.

I certainly don't think that any offense was meant or should be taken.

I'm a member of the western audience. I don't feel catered to. I feel rather that my intelligence has been insulted by their assumption that I would love the drivel that they have presented. "Mondo cool!" indeed. (and I mean indeed in the sarcastic Victorian sense)

[aarondirebear]

Funimation's adaptation was not meant disrespectfully and shouldn't be taken that way. Of course, hardcore fans who hold dear the original as sacred are always going to find issue with the changes - but like I mentioned previously, it's not a literal transliteration, it's an adaptation.

Faulconer's music is repetitive garbage and barely qualifies as music.
I will take the adapatation to be disrespectful to the day I DIE.

[ABED]

It is not its inaccurate script but its "we made it funnier and better" like self-indulgent feeling what makes it so bad. "Modifying" the script works only when the original is full of flaws or simply boring, but it is unneeded and can be very rude to the original creators if the show is well made and enjoyable as-is.

You have to view Funimation's dub as not a like-for-like transliteration of Dragonball Z from Japanese to English but instead an adaptation to cater for a Western audience/market place. Funimation wanted to convey the show in the most understandable and recognisable format for the young American demographic they were targeting, which is unfortunately lost on, or occasionally found to be sacrilege, by fans of the show who are used to the original.

Excuse the expression but it is what it is and it does what it does - both rather successfully in terms of generating popularity and garnering a wide audience, actually.

I certainly don't think that any offense was meant or should be taken.

I'm a member of the western audience. I don't feel catered to. I feel rather that my intelligence has been insulted by their assumption that I would love the drivel that they have presented. "Mondo cool!" indeed. (and I mean indeed in the sarcastic Victorian sense)

I'm with Aarondirebear, if what they gave us was intended to appeal to a western audience, I feel talked down to. There were a number of kid's shows that didn't talk down to kids at the time, and like I said, Dragon Ball and DBZ weren't that sophisticated to begin with.

[90sDBZ]

And I agree that this whole elitist attitude among the fanbase does become most tiresome. You might not think that Faulconer was right for DBZ but that doesn't change the fact that millions of fans love it and think that it fits perfectly.

A lot of people liking something doesn't make it good. Millions of people can like stuff that's terrible. I'm not saying people can't like what they like, just that "lots of people like it" isn't a good argument in a discussion of whether or not it's good.

No popularity doesn't necessarily mean something is good but it does mean that it was a success in doing what it was intended to do and that it meant a lot to many people and really had an impact on them.

And that works the other way too. Just because purists say that Kikuchi's score was great that doesn't make it great either. It all comes to down to the impact it had on you as an individual. To me Faulconer's score was great and I'm aware of that so I can't be wrong. But if someone else felt it sucked then they can't be wrong either and I respect their differing feelings about it.

It's just this whole stupid mentality of "if you like this you're wrong" or "I used to like Faulconer when I was young and ignorant". And I hate how purists imply that fans of Faulconer are either immature or dumb. If you enjoyed it and felt it fitted the show then that's all that matters. There's plenty of intelligent and mature fans out there who love Faulconer's music but aren't so high and mighty that they disrespect those who prefer Kikuchi. I have always loved DBZ the most with Faulconer's score and have hardly ever felt like it was inappropriate so that's how I will continue to watch and enjoy it without any shame and without bashing Kikuchi fans either.

And I hate how things have gotten to the point where some fans are actually ashamed to say they like Faulconer's score. If you like it then good for you and you're right to go with what you like without caring what elitist snobs think.

[ABED]

I think it's a shame that some try and make you feel ashamed for liking Faulconer's score, but I will continue to say that I think the score doesn't fit. Hopefully no one will take it personally. I don't think anyone would miss what wasn't there which is why I wish the score never existed. I can't imagine it's like a TV show, musician or movie that people feel like their life would be worse off for never having heard it.

[Hellspawn28]

This whole attitude of people saying "Faulconer sucks. FACT" really needs to change.

People have their own taste in music. I like the Japanese music better because it feels more natural since that's the music used originally when they made it.

change the fact that millions of fans love it and think that it fits perfectly.

A lot of people like the Twilight, but that does not make it good.

It's very dismissive of other fans and their opinions. If the Funimation dub was the original version and the Japanese version was the adapted version then I bet things would be very different.

Things would be the same. I seen other anime shows around the same time era that DBZ came out like Outlaw Star and Ronin Warriors and they used the original Japanese music from what I can remember. DBZ became popular because it was a fast placed action show that most people never seen before.

[ABED]

I don't know why people consider Kikuchi's score dated. It makes sense that an 80s score goes with shows animated in the 80s.

[90sDBZ]

I don't know why people consider Kikuchi's score dated. It makes sense that an 80s score goes with shows animated in the 80s.

While I do like Kikuchi's score I can understand that reasoning. Even though the show was made in the 80s/90s it is pretty timeless to watch and enjoy. Kikuchi's music on the other hand hasn't aged as well. Strangely I feel like Kikuchi's music from Dragonball has aged better than in Z. In Dragonball it made the show feel exciting like an awesome martial arts adventure but in Z it felt more dated and just wasn't as enjoyable for me.

I recently watched Movie 12 in both English and Japanese and can honestly say the Japanese version bored me to death a lot of the time, largely because of Kikuchi's dated score. The English version on the other hand featured Nathan Jonson's score and added excitement to the movie and drew me in and kept me interested in what was going on.

Faulconer's score also brings the show to life for me and adds a whole new dimension of excitement and emotion to the show. When all is said and done DBZ is an action show full of fast-paced fighting and drawn out powerups. I would just rather have music that engages me and draws me in as opposed to music that puts me to sleep in the midst of a battle that is supposed to be an exciting event.

On a side note there's something I'm curious about and want to get some opinions on. This is nothing to do with Kikuchi but in Kai when Goku comes out of the rejuvenation chamber there's that track that plays called "Super Dragon Soul" by Yamamoto. Obviously this would have been a track intended for Japanese audiences and yet it feels similar to something that Faulconer would play and gives off the same epic feeling that Faulconer did when Goku came flying out of Frieza's spaceship after being healed. Yet I don't see any complaints about it being used. Is it just a case of "It's the original Japanese score for Kai so it's not Americanized and must be good"?

Compare these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T81Q_U4Qe7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rPyDITQGQ

The approach Yamamoto took with that scene feels almost exactly the same as Faulconer's approach. They both treated it as an epic scene with the hero back in action. So why is it that Faulconer gets so much hate for this sort of approach but Yamamoto doesn't?

[Metalwario64]

Obviously this would have been a track intended for Japanese audiences and yet it feels similar to something that Faulconer would play and gives off the same epic feeling that Faulconer did when Goku came flying out of Freeza's spaceship after being healed. Yet I don't see any complaints about it being used. Is it just a case of "It's the original Japanese score for Kai so it's not Americanized and must be good"?

Then you aren't looking hard enough. Quite few people were complaining around that point that too many insert songs were being used. I don't even think it particularly fit with that scene.

I also can't believe you prefer Johnson's lifeless music over Kikuchi's. I thought the movie 12 score was great, and seemingly underrated.