Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:28 pm

I'm so out of the loop as to what is "in". I think the score is just as timeless as the show. Then again, I'm not that big on new music anyways. Most of the music I listen to is from the 80s or before.

Kikuchi's stuff is memorable. I can't remember a single track from Nathan Johnson. Was he the guy who wrote the guitar riff that appeared at the opening credits for the season sets? If so, that's not a bad track - not Dragon ball in the least, but on its own it's quite nice.

Yes, DBZ has action but if that's all anyone takes from it, then they are missing out. There's a humor and whimsical quality to it that Faulconer never gets. I also don't equate action with guitars and techno.

"Is it just a case of "It's the original Japanese score for Kai so it's not Americanized and must be good"?"
No, It's hopeful and heroic, which I honestly don't think Faulconer ever got. Okay, maybe the Super Saiyan 3 theme was pretty good, but there he missed the point of the scene. Never mind, I just saw the videos you posted, and realized I was thinking of Z. Kikuchi's score was amazing in that moment. I don't care for either Kai's score nor Faulconer's.

B · Post by B » Sat May 25, 2013 8:38 pm

90sDBZ wrote:I would just rather have music that engages me and draws me in as opposed to music that puts me to sleep in the midst of a battle that is supposed to be an exciting event.

Who said all battles were supposed to be "exciting events"? If anything, the best approximation of what any scene is "supposed to be" is how it was originally scored/directed/animated, etc. Is the music really "engaging" you if it's supposedly only there to reinforce the most bare-bones, surface level of a scene?

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:42 pm

Battles don't have to be just exciting. Often they are tense, suspenseful, funny or dramatic.

Zenkai · Post by **Zenkai** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:49 pm

90sDBZ wrote: Kikuchi's music on the other hand hasn't aged as well.

It has aged just fine. I think it will age much better than the Faulconer score in the long run.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:51 pm

Zenkai wrote:
90sDBZ wrote: Kikuchi's music on the other hand hasn't aged as well.
It has aged just fine. I think it will age much better than the Faulconer score in the long run.

Sometimes what's old is new, and retro often rules!

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Sun May 26, 2013 2:38 am

90sDBZ wrote:Just because Kikuchi was the original it doesn't mean that a different creative approach is unacceptable.

Yes it does.

90sDBZ wrote:On a side note there's something I'm curious about and want to get some opinions on. This is nothing to do with Kikuchi but in Kai when Goku comes out of the rejuvenation chamber there's that track that plays called "Super Dragon Soul" by Yamamoto. Obviously this would have been a track intended for Japanese audiences and yet it feels similar to something that Faulconer would play and gives off the same epic feeling that Faulconer did when Goku came flying out of Freeza's spaceship after being healed. Yet I don't see any complaints about it being used. Is it just a case of "It's the original Japanese score for Kai so it's not Americanized and must be good"?

Compare these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T81Q_U4Qe7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rPyDITQGQ

The approach Yamamoto took with that scene feels almost exactly the same as Faulconer's approach. They both treated it as an epic scene with the hero back in action. So why is it that Faulconer gets so much hate for this sort of approach but Yamamoto doesn't?

It's not Yamamoto's song, and Yukio Nagasaki, the audio director, is the one who placed the score.

90sDBZ · Post by **90sDBZ** » Sun May 26, 2013 8:40 am

Well I guess this just isn't a forum for fans of Faulconer or Funi's Z dub so all we can do is agree to disagree. To me Faulconer's score fits perfectly and sounds just as great now as it did 13 years ago and despite still loving Kikuchi in DB I just can't bring myself to enjoy Kikuchi in Z as much and find myself bored by it regularly. If Faulconer's score had never existed and Kikuchi had always been used for the dub I think I would still be a fan but wouldn't be revisiting the series as often as I do. That's my point of view anyway.

Majin Buu · Post by **Majin Buu** » Sun May 26, 2013 8:44 am

90sDBZ wrote:And that works the other way too. Just because purists say that Kikuchi's score was great that doesn't make it great either. It all comes to down to the impact it had on you as an individual. To me Faulconer's score was great and I'm aware of that so I can't be wrong. But if someone else felt it sucked then they can't be wrong either and I respect their differing feelings about it.

That's not really a good argument either when it comes to discussing whether or not the music is good. The right to your own opinion and being right about something are not the same. People can feel a certain way about something and still be wrong about it. Someone can enjoy poorly written films like the (Michael Bay) Transformers films, but that doesn't change the fact that they're poorly written films, it just means that person likes these poorly written films and has the right to do so. People are entitled to feel the way they feel about anything, but being entitled to your own opinion doesn't inherently make that opinion right, it just means you're allowed to have that opinion.

"It's just this whole stupid mentality of "if you like this you're wrong" or "I used to like Faulconer when I was young and ignorant". And I hate how purists imply that fans of Faulconer are either immature or dumb. If you enjoyed it and felt it fitted the show then that's all that matters. There's plenty of intelligent and mature fans out there who love Faulconer's music but aren't so high and mighty that they disrespect those who prefer Kikuchi. I have always loved DBZ the most with Faulconer's score and have hardly ever felt like it was inappropriate so that's how I will continue to watch and enjoy it without any shame and without bashing Kikuchi fans either."

Yes, people shouldn't be bashing others for their opinions, and that should go without saying; but this is a discussion about the quality of the Falconer music. In holding the opinion that it's bad music/badly implemented music (which for the record, I do as well), you can't really avoid the implication that the people who do like it are enjoying something that's bad. That's not meant to be an insult, it just comes with holding that opinion. Again, I'm not saying people should be insulting others for their opinions, but somewhat unfavorable implications are sometimes hard to avoid when you take a stance on something.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:25 am

Zenkai wrote:
90sDBZ wrote: Kikuchi's music on the other hand hasn't aged as well.
It has aged just fine. I think it will age much better than the Faulconer score in the long run.

This. Electronic music easily gets terribly out of date after a decade or so, but orchestral music never gets unlistenable because it's free from drastic technology advancement. Some brass sound fonts used in the Faulconer score are nearly unbearable by today's standards.

By the way, actually, I heard that the Kikuchi score had been strongly bashed by some fans for being dated during DBZ's original broadcast in Japan. I also heard that such people had said that some more "progressive" composers like Yamamoto (how ironic!) would be far more appropriate. The Kikuchi score already could be considered as out of date at the time, but I think that its some kind of oldschoolness ended up making it classic and timeless as a result. I shudder to think how the DBZ we know would have been if its score were some '80s or early '90s style synth music that people at the time appreciated. It would have been unbearable to hear now and deserved replacement music.

It's the same as in the case of early 3D VFX films being unwatchable today despite much older rubber suit monster films still being enjoyable.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Sun May 26, 2013 2:52 pm

There is, however, such a thing as objective fact.
That Faulconer's music borders on dubstep in terms of lack of creativity is an objective truth.
Those of us who have heard a lot of great music know the difference between a good song and a bad song.
Therefore when we see people who actually like Faulconer's music, the only conclusion we can draw is that they (those that like his music) have poor taste in or a lack of experience with music.

Rhapsody of Fire is obscure while Baby Baby Baby is popular...I am not just saying. There is a profound message in the nuances of that sentence.

90sDBZ · Post by **90sDBZ** » Sun May 26, 2013 4:32 pm

aarondirebear wrote:There is, however, such a thing as objective fact.
That Faulconer's music borders on dubstep in terms of lack of creativity is an objective truth.
Those of us who have heard a lot of great music know the difference between a good song and a bad song.
Therefore when we see people who actually like Faulconer's music, the only conclusion we can draw is that they (those that like his music) have poor taste in or a lack of experience with music.

Rhapsody of Fire is obscure while Baby Baby Baby is popular...I am not just saying. There is a profound message in the nuances of that sentence.

But that's the thing. When someone says they've heard more good music and therefore have a more valid opinion about music in a show it just comes down to them treating their option as fact. Just because you think all the music you've heard is better and/or more original that doesn't make it fact. What someone or anyone says is a good song or bad song isn't fact. It's their personal taste and opinion, not a fact so doesn't give anyone the right to say someone else is less intelligent for feeling differently.

A fact is that the sun will rise tomorrow. Someone who disagreed with that would be foolish. The quality of music isn't a fact no matter how anyone tries to twist the argument.

Me personally, I'm not a fan of dubstep but am still a huge fan of Faulconer. I have plenty of experience with music and still prefer Faulconer to Kikuchi, not because I'm ignorant to other music but because I genuinely prefer it.

Ringworm128 · Post by **Ringworm128** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:07 pm

aarondirebear wrote:There is, however, such a thing as objective fact.
That Faulconer's music borders on dubstep in terms of lack of creativity is an objective truth.
Those of us who have heard a lot of great music know the difference between a good song and a bad song.
Therefore when we see people who actually like Faulconer's music, the only conclusion we can draw is that they (those that like his music) have poor taste in or a lack of experience with music.

Rhapsody of Fire is obscure while Baby Baby Baby is popular...I am not just saying. There is a profound message in the nuances of that sentence.

I'm sorry but that comment is beyond conceited no matter how I look at it. While I actually agree that half of Team Faulconer's music is generic filler that doesn't make me right. I've listened to everything from Turkish March by Mozart to Suck My Dick by DJ Valentino and I even study music in hopes of becoming a composer myself so I'd say I have a fair amount of experience with music yet I enjoy many of Team Faulconer's tracks, Ginyu Transformation is a great track it is filled with so much atmosphere though some would probably just hear it as droning noise, doesn't make either of us right. I could go on about why I like other tracks from the replacement score. Even dubstep is a matter of opinion, I really enjoy the rough sound it has. If you don't that's fine, but don't think you're better for it.

kei17 wrote:SNIP

Ryuji-Otogi · Post by **Ryuji-Otogi** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:41 pm

Sorry I got hacked.

dbzfan7 · Post by **dbzfan7** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:51 pm

ringworm128 wrote:
aarondirebear wrote:There is, however, such a thing as objective fact.
That Faulconer's music borders on dubstep in terms of lack of creativity is an objective truth.
Those of us who have heard a lot of great music know the difference between a good song and a bad song.
Therefore when we see people who actually like Faulconer's music, the only conclusion we can draw is that they (those that like his music) have poor taste in or a lack of experience with music.

Rhapsody of Fire is obscure while Baby Baby Baby is popular...I am not just saying. There is a profound message in the nuances of that sentence.
I'm sorry but that comment is beyond conceited no matter how I look at it. While I actually agree that half of Team Faulconer's music is generic filler that doesn't make me right. I've listened to everything from Turkish March by Mozart to Suck My Dick by DJ Valentino and I even study music in hopes of becoming a composer myself so I'd say I have a fair amount of experience with music yet I enjoy many of Team Faulconer's tracks, Ginyu Transformation is a great track it is filled with so much atmosphere though some would probably just hear it as droning noise, doesn't make either of us right. I could go on about why I like other tracks from the replacement score. Even dubstep is a matter of opinion, I really enjoy the rough sound it has. If you don't that's fine, but don't think you're better for it.
kei17 wrote:SNIP
Sound doesn't really make a score good, it's the effort the composer puts into the track, just listen to the OST from the Touhou series http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIop055eJhU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ehKblhOfg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9wHYiicY5I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy_-7OXophY those mostly use out of date MIDI sounds yet they trump most soundtracks done with full blown orchestras IMO. Or for even better example the old 8 and 16 bit video game OST's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbXOyXaJJBc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqZaFDA7PXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNJJ-QkZ8cM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRuJfhEeCe8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TO0N4KxzPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEzYEoV9qY

I have to agree. Music is opinionated. You can't declare a standard. You can however set your own standard. I like Kikuchi, some of Faulconer, and Yamamoto.

penguintruth · Post by **penguintruth** » Sun May 26, 2013 11:50 pm

Blade, there is plenty of leitmotif in the Kikuchi score, it's just not used as often, and not usually for specific characters (with the exception of Piccolo in the movies), but rather for recurring themes. Leimotif can be overrated, anyway, because it becomes an excuse to use the same one piece every time a certain character appears. Though utilization and composition are somewhat different beasts, and ultimately utilization depends on where the pieces are put and how many pieces are requested from the composer. However, from the pieces themselves, I find Kikuchi's more palpable and operatic. I have no problem with wailing guitars in music as a rule (some of my favorite music features that, be it Van Halen or Journey), or even some faux new age sounds as the Faulconer score employs, but most of the time for the DBZ score, it's either way too safe and generic or way too obnoxious and showy, without ever hitting that happy medium.

It also entirely fails to reflect the classic martial arts movie and legend roots of the story. It tries too hard to modernize the show. But I'm not looking for bombastic techno sounds or wailing guitars in DBZ. Some guy is glowing with golden energy, I want to hear horns and big slave galley drums. The most high tech thing I want to hear is the vibraslap. Well, maybe some synth in the the Cell arc material.

When some guy's about to blast the planet with a giant ball of light energy, I don't want it to sound like a Sega Genesis game's title screen, I want it to sound like I should be crapping my pants in fear.

ABED wrote:Krillin: This plan is half baked. Piccolo: No it fully baked.

I don't remember that bit. Did... did the DBZ dub ape The Graduate?

One word for you, Piccolo: PLASTICS.

Ringworm128 · Post by **Ringworm128** » Mon May 27, 2013 12:19 am

The "it doesn't fit with the theme of the series" thing is another argument that usually gets brought up against the Faulconer score, though for the period the Faulconer score is used the eastern culture, adventure and martial arts aspect of the series are almost completely non existent. during that period DBZ is pretty much an action anime with the outfits they have pretty much being the only thing still connected to eastern martial arts.

B · Post by B » Mon May 27, 2013 12:50 am

Even if the notion that the Z-era is so radically different from pre-Z that it needs different musical cues rang true, that statement only argues against Kikuchi's score and not for Faulconer's. The idea that the more Wuxia elements are abandoned doesn't necessarily mean "time for wailing guitars!" How do bellowing orchestral pieces not lend themselves to heavy action scenes for the fate of the universe?

"Faulconer fits because Kikuchi doesn't" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Makaioshin · Post by **Makaioshin** » Mon May 27, 2013 12:54 am

ringworm128 wrote:The "it doesn't fit with the theme of the series" thing is another argument that usually gets brought up against the Faulconer score, though for the period the Faulconer score is used the eastern culture, adventure and martial arts aspect of the series are almost completely non existent. during that period DBZ is pretty much an action anime with the outfits they have pretty much being the only thing still connected to eastern martial arts.

Not really. It is all still there in the Freeza and Cell arcs with a sci-fi coating. The themes and attitudes of the characters all derive from martial arts stories and such. The Boo arc is a return to formula kinda with a gag twist.

Ringworm128 · Post by **Ringworm128** » Mon May 27, 2013 3:21 am

B wrote:Even if the notion that the Z-era is so radically different from pre-Z that it needs different musical cues rang true, that statement only argues against Kikuchi's score and not for Faulconer's. The idea that the more Wuxia elements are abandoned doesn't necessarily mean "time for wailing guitars!" How do bellowing orchestral pieces not lend themselves to heavy action scenes for the fate of the universe?

"Faulconer fits because Kikuchi doesn't" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I never said "Orchastra music doesn't fit" in fact a good chunk of my posts over the years have made it clear that Kikuchi's score is my favorite of the entire franchise.

Majin Buu · Post by **Majin Buu** » Mon May 27, 2013 8:22 am

B wrote:"Faulconer fits because Kikuchi doesn't" doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Exactly. Another logical fallacy being used to justify the Falconer score. The latter doesn't inherently make the former true.

Kanzenshuu

Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

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Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub

Re: Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub