Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There's still Goku thinking he might lose against Uub. No way he could possibly lose if he had kept the SSJG power.

That's what I said.

[Kamiccolo9]

There's still Goku thinking he might lose against Uub. No way he could possibly lose if he had kept the SSJG power.

That's what I said.

Sorry, I started typing that before you finished posting, and for some reason it didn't show up when I posted.

[TheMightyOzaru]

In Shuiesha's, which I don't count.

Still, what do you have to say about what I said for 28th TB Goku?

He absorbed the power into his SSJ form. His base form is still just his base form.

[hleV]

I'm not gonna quote anyone and make replies to each argument, I'll just say this.

"I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga's] serialization had continued" - Akira Toriyama.
This in no way means that BOG actually happened in the original story that was presented in the manga. This story was created by imagining what could've happened if the serialization of the manga had continued. But it was created for a DBZ movie. Which is anime -- Piccolo with 5 fingers, wrong colors, different aura shapes, no lightning sparks, etc. For BOG to "officially" be a part of the DBZ anime, I honestly have no problem with that, because contradictions and nonsensical stuff is a common thing in DB/Z anime. BOG fits there quite nicely. But the manga is not like that. Again, the story was made "imagining as if the manga had continued", meaning it's not some kind of a side story which may or may not fit into the original timeline, but not that the story is a real continuation of the events in the manga, neither.
I simply can't put together the manga and a DBZ movie which looks so different from the way things are in the manga. What... Am I supposed to imagine that the events did happen in the original story, just that there were no anime-specific contradictions? Why? It's much easier and makes more sense to just leave anime to anime.
If they've made a manga version of BOG, which is not based on the movie itself but Toriyama's story, even if it's not drawn by Toriyama, I could live with that being a continuation of the manga.

To add, the ideas of "God of Destruction" and "Super Saiyan God" were already there. Toriyama made a story out of those ideas. I'm not saying that others' influence to the story Toriyama came up with makes it any less "valid", but he was somewhat "forced" to come up with the explanation of SSG. And it turned out so darn bad. He was probably able to just dismiss the idea of SSG, but what I'm saying is that originally he hardly would've come up with something so stupid.

Or simply shit happens when there's no editor telling Toriyama what's he doing wrong and what he should fix.

[Kaboom]

We really need to get off this subject. Not the place for it.

[Draken]

I'm not gonna quote anyone and make replies to each argument, I'll just say this.

"I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga's] serialization had continued" - Akira Toriyama.
This in no way means that BOG actually happened in the original story that was presented in the manga. This story was created by imagining what could've happened if the serialization of the manga had continued. But it was created for a DBZ movie. Which is anime -- Piccolo with 5 fingers, wrong colors, different aura shapes, no lightning sparks, etc. For BOG to "officially" be a part of the DBZ anime, I honestly have no problem with that, because contradictions and nonsensical stuff is a common thing in DB/Z anime. BOG fits there quite nicely. But the manga is not like that. Again, the story was made "imagining as if the manga had continued", meaning it's not some kind of a side story which may or may not fit into the original timeline, but not that the story is a real continuation of the events in the manga, neither.
I simply can't put together the manga and a DBZ movie which looks so different from the way things are in the manga. What... Am I supposed to imagine that the events did happen in the original story, just that there were no anime-specific contradictions? Why? It's much easier and makes more sense to just leave anime to anime.
If they've made a manga version of BOG, which is not based on the movie itself but Toriyama's story, even if it's not drawn by Toriyama, I could live with that being a continuation of the manga.

To add, the ideas of "God of Destruction" and "Super Saiyan God" were already there. Toriyama made a story out of those ideas. I'm not saying that others' influence to the story Toriyama came up with makes it any less "valid", but he was somewhat "forced" to come up with the explanation of SSG. And it turned out so darn bad. He was probably able to just dismiss the idea of SSG, but what I'm saying is that originally he hardly would've come up with something so stupid.

Or simply shit happens when there's no editor telling Toriyama what's he doing wrong and what he should fix.

... Because the manga TOTALLY has zero contradictions. If it's not in the original timeline and it's not a side story, then the fuck is it? I don't see why you're so against it being "canon" when AT wrote it. Just that they chose to put it in movie form. It makes power levels easier to do because they actually gave us a basis to start. Base Saiyans < Freeza even past the Buu arc is a lot better then people throwing them from below 10 million to above the billions.

[Kaboom]

Again, let's please drop the subject. Last time I ask nicely before I take off the "fellow in-universe fan" hat and put on the "gung-ho moderator" hat.

To help, I'll repost my DBZ series power levels. Since I don't want to split things up, and my artistic side can't help but want to include notes and explanations and junk... then rather than making a HUUUUGE post, I slapped everything together onto a page on DropBox for everyone to read.

CHECK IT, YO.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again, let's please drop the subject. Last time I ask nicely before I take off the "fellow in-universe fan" hat and put on the "gung-ho moderator" hat.

To help, I'll repost my DBZ series power levels. Since I don't want to split things up, and my artistic side can't help but want to include notes and explanations and junk... then rather than making a HUUUUGE post, I slapped everything together onto a page on DropBox for everyone to read.

CHECK IT, YO.

Good list. I like your explanation for the future androids lower strength as compared to the present ones.
One question though. Why do you have Future Trunks getting over twice as strong in the years between him killing the androids and fighting Cell? I think that he'd have spent more time helping to rebuild his world than he would training, especially considering the half-Saiyans' tendency to put training relatively low on their list of priorities. Also, he wouldn't have had any really effective methods of training; he couldn't enter the ROSAT, I'm guessing that there are no gravity chambers, and there is no one for him to spar with.
Not that your number doesn't work though.

[Kaboom]

Eh, it was mostly a symbolic thing, making him as strong as Gohan was at the Cell Games. But you're right, it might be a bit too much.

[RandomGuy96]

Hmmmm, no movies, disappointing...

Anyway, why do you keep revising these lists if so little is actually changed? A few things:

0. Nappa doesn't have a "full power". He can't change his power level.

1. Huh, you and I have post-Zenkai Vegeta at exactly the same level... funny coincidence...

2. We also have the exact same levels for Monster Zarbon and Android Arc Piccolo and 17...

3. Android 16 and Imperfect Cell having the same gap on Piccolo and 17 that Goku had on Freeza? I'm all for flexible gaps, but come on, that seems really tiny, too tiny... we saw Goku vs Freeza. Goku didn't tank Freeza's best attack without budging and then kill him with one punch. I know that you don't like big gaps, but if a big gap were ever needed, it would be here.

4. Why are Yardrat Goku and Future Trunks so close together? You'd think that Trunks wouldn't be so impressed, and that Goku deflecting Trunks' attacks with his finger is a pretty good way of saying "look how strong Goku is".

5. If you're bothering to put a gap between the future and present androids at all, why is it so small when Trunks said that the current ones are ridiculously powerful compared to his? I mean that's the only statement we have to go on...

6. How did 19 survive hits from a Goku you have as even greater than Yardrat Goku yet get his arms easily ripped off by Vegeta, who wasn't really that much stronger?

7. I think the gap between Dabura and Gohan is too big. Not saying that Dabura couldn't win such a fight with skill and magic tricks, but I think that such a gap would've at least been noticeable.

8. Yamcha doesn't even come up to Recoome? Wow, he always fails...

9. I think the gap between Super Buu and Gotenks should be bigger. Gotenks dominated once he got serious. I see it as similar to Goku vs Freeza, if Freeza had infinite stamina and could regenerate...


By the way Kaboom, what do you think of my new conservative list (RandomGuy96's Power Levels: Final Version) on Page 103?

[Draken]

Again, let's please drop the subject. Last time I ask nicely before I take off the "fellow in-universe fan" hat and put on the "gung-ho moderator" hat.

To help, I'll repost my DBZ series power levels. Since I don't want to split things up, and my artistic side can't help but want to include notes and explanations and junk... then rather than making a HUUUUGE post, I slapped everything together onto a page on DropBox for everyone to read.

CHECK IT, YO.

I feel like for the Cell Saga you added an extra 0 for Semi-Perfect Cell... 9 billion?

[Saiga]

Huh, how'd you get your BP list to look like that? It looks good, I'd like to try it for my next tweaking.

Also, shouldn't Gohan be up at 1,500 (or at least closer than 1,200 is) for Namek? And I disagree with Goten and Trunks getting weaker over the years. They gain power quickly, and isn't it said that Goku and Vegeta forced them to train?

[TheMightyOzaru]

page 115

[Kaboom]

Hmmmm, no movies, disappointing...

Movies are on their own list, which isn't done yet.

Anyway, why do you keep revising these lists if so little is actually changed?

Because it gets the thread back on track.

0. Nappa doesn't have a "full power". He can't change his power level.

Yes, I know. That's kind of a joke listing (I do those). The 4500 number for him was, like I said, actually used once and only once, in a mini-guide for Movie 3.

1. Huh, you and I have post-Zenkai Vegeta at exactly the same level... funny coincidence...

You mean against Freeza? Not that surprising, really. There's only so small a range he could be, fitting between Goku and Freeza's prior forms.

2. We also have the exact same levels for Monster Zarbon and Android Arc Piccolo and 17...

Also not that surprising.

3. Android 16 and Imperfect Cell having the same gap on Piccolo and 17 that Goku had on Freeza? I'm all for flexible gaps, but come on, that seems really tiny, too tiny... we saw Goku vs Freeza. Goku didn't tank Freeza's best attack without budging and then kill him with one punch. I know that you don't like big gaps, but if a big gap were ever needed, it would be here.

By that point, Piccolo would be pretty worn out from fighting 17, and his power was probably reduced. Imagine if Freeza started fighting Goku AFTER his 100% drained his power considerably. I figure if Piccolo were fresh and at full power, then he may have been able to put up at least a little bit of a better fight.

4. Why are Yardrat Goku and Future Trunks so close together? You'd think that Trunks wouldn't be so impressed, and that Goku deflecting Trunks' attacks with his finger is a pretty good way of saying "look how strong Goku is."

Like they both said in the manga and I repeated here, neither of them were really trying.

5. If you're bothering to put a gap between the future and present androids at all, why is it so small when Trunks said that the current ones are ridiculously powerful compared to his? I mean that's the only statement we have to go on...

I figure the future Androids have been holding back on him like they did with Gohan. So he's not aware of their full power, even if it only tops out at a little less than the "prime" Androids. Daizenshuu #7 says the future Androids are "somewhat inferior in power," which is vague but doesn't necessarily mean a big difference.

6. How did 19 survive hits from a Goku you have as even greater than Yardrat Goku yet get his arms easily ripped off by Vegeta, who wasn't really that much stronger?

The same way Nappa survived Goku's beating, the Ginyu Force survived getting knocked around, 50% Freeza survived getting beaten up, etc. Besides, punches are a little different from bracing yourself and pulling with all your might. Leverage, applied force, etc. Also, I don't put much stock into so-called "survival feats," especially with Androids who are resistant to physical damage. Even still, 20 was getting worried that 19 would take too much damage before he could absorb any energy.

7. I think the gap between Dabura and Gohan is too big. Not saying that Dabura couldn't win such a fight with skill and magic tricks, but I think that such a gap would've at least been noticeable.

I figure it should be a noticeable power gap, for Vegeta to be so disappointed and pissed off for Gohan failing to win.

8. Yamcha doesn't even come up to Recoome? Wow, he always fails...

Poor Yamcha.

9. I think the gap between Super Buu and Gotenks should be bigger. Gotenks dominated once he got serious. I see it as similar to Goku vs Freeza, if Freeza had infinite stamina and could regenerate...

Yes Boo also implied he was just stalling for time (though may have bitten off a bit more than he could chew in the meanwhile). Consider it another compromise.

By the way Kaboom, what do you think of my new conservative list (RandomGuy96's Power Levels: Final Version) on Page 103?

Not bad, I like it. Pretty similar to mine in a lot of ways.

I feel like for the Cell Saga you added an extra 0 for Semi-Perfect Cell... 9 billion?

Whoops. That's one helluva typo. Fixed.

Huh, how'd you get your BP list to look like that? It looks good, I'd like to try it for my next tweaking.

I just typed it up with Microsoft Word and then published it as a .htm page. Don't ask me how it works, I don't know.

Also, shouldn't Gohan be up at 1,500 (or at least closer than 1,200 is) for Namek?

I guess so. But Kuririn, on the other hand, was already well past 1500 himself back on Earth, so would that mean he was holding back against the Freeza thugs? I dunno. 1200 and 1800 average out to 1500, but I may just put Gohan at 1500 anyway.

And I disagree with Goten and Trunks getting weaker over the years. They gain power quickly, and isn't it said that Goku and Vegeta forced them to train?

Not that I remember. The impression I got was that Goku was only currently pushing Goten in preparation for the tournament. I do know that in Yo! they were pretty rusty already after only 2 years. A full ten years of slacking off the same way probably left them at least a little bit weaker than they were in the Boo arc.

[RandomGuy96]

@Kaboom: I'll respond shortly, that's a lot of text...

@Ozaru a few things:

1. Why are Cymbal and Tambourine equals? Tambourine was explicitly stated to be stronger.

2. Why is the gap between Turles and Goku so insanely, ridiculously tiny? Turles tooled him.

3. Why did Cooler suppress himself to like 5% for no reason and then say that someone that weak could beat final form Freeza?

4. Why is the gap between Evil and Good Buu so tiny as well? That was domination...

5. How does the Super Kaioken make any sense? You can't just add multipliers like that. That's not even how Kaio-Ken works.

6. Why is Goku so close to Pikkon? He got utterly demolished without landing a single hit, unless you count the Instant Kamehameha and the Super Kaioken, both of which did no damage to Pikkon and are greater than Goku's own poer...

[TheMightyOzaru]

I thought we have agreed to disagree? Anyway, the gaps are small because it truly doesn't matter. Plot decides when the gaps truly matter. Heck sometimes pure skill makes a world of difference. The only time I feel there should be a 100% guarantee domination is when there is a 1.33x difference or more. Yeah I guess I'll change Super Kaioken, Paikuhan is dead so I suppose a drastic difference wouldn't kill him, twice anyway . Paikuhan was still hurt in his fight with Goku so they clearly aren't too far apart. Tambourine is stronger on my list... Cooler suppressed himself for the same reason Freeza did, entertainment. Cooler never stated he thought Goku as he was now could take Freeza... Goku with a power level of about 4 mill could get the jump on an unexpecting Freeza and kill him pretty easily. Cooler knows how cocky his little brother is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUuVQBGGig
You see, if Paikuhan is so much stronger he wouldn't be so fatigued.

[RandomGuy96]

I thought we have agreed to disagree? Anyway, the gaps are small because it truly doesn't matter. Plot decides when the gaps truly matter. Heck sometimes pure skill makes a world of difference. The only time I feel there should be a 100% guarantee domination is when there is a 1.33x difference or more. Yeah I guess I'll change Super Kaioken, Paikuhan is dead so I suppose a drastic difference wouldn't kill him, twice anyway . Paikuhan was still hurt in his fight with Goku so they clearly aren't too far apart. Tambourine is stronger on my list... Cooler suppressed himself for the same reason Freeza did, entertainment. Cooler never stated he thought Goku as he was now could take Freeza... Goku with a power level of about 4 mill could get the jump on an unexpecting Freeza and kill him pretty easily. Cooler knows how cocky his little brother is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUuVQBGGig
You see, if Paikuhan is so much stronger he wouldn't be so fatigued.

I just don't like gap inconsistency. I kind of wonder what the point of making these in the first place is if the numbers don't really mean anything, since gaps just fluctuate. I mean you have 100% Freeza holding his own (or the very least, not getting steam rolled) with an 80% gap, but then you have Goku completely unable to land a single hit with a 90% gap (against Pikkon) or even LESS (against Turles)? And you have Garlic Jr destroying Goku with not even a 95% gap? Come on...

Cymbal and Tambourine are near equals. I didn't even think a power level difference of 5 was worth mentioning. Point is, on your list, they're basically equal, while in the series it was stated that Tambourine was way stronger...

Hurt? The only hits he ever took were from amplified attacks: Super Kaioken and Kamehameha. And even those did basically no damage to the guy, while Goku could barley stand.

That doesn't make sense. Yes, Cooler explicitly says that the Goku he just fought "does well as [he] expected, enough to defeat [Freeza]". Why would he be complimenting Goku's performance in normal combat if he's assuming a sneak attack? Why would he even be assuming a sneak attack? He already knows that the battle apparently got to the point where Freeza could transform three times, yet he never ever suspects that Freeza will just shoot his power up to 50%, like he can do in an instant? Why would he suspect that Freeza would be intentionally suppressing himself to a ludicrously low level for no reason and then not even shoot up his power in a nanosecond before he was about to die?

[TheMightyOzaru]

4,000,000 is really really high for a Saiyan. Are you trying to tell me that base Goku is stronger than Freeza or something?

[RandomGuy96]

That's what's outright stated in the movie. Well, it's stated that the Goku that Cooler fought is strong enough to best at least 50% Freeza. Either that or Cooler is inexplicably wrong by miles for no reason, and doesn't know his own brother's power (unlike King Cold) for no reason, and Goku never bothers correcting him/seems to agree with him (when Cooler said to show him the power capable of killing Freeza, Goku attacks him without even using a visible kaio-ken) for no reason. Then Cooler decided to transform for no reason when he could've easily just stopped suppressing himself so severely.

Cooler also looks like a complete idiot for telling someone to show him the power capable of killing final form Freeza, and then taking the effort to power down to like 5% of power, basically asking to be killed.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's what's outright stated in the movie. Well, it's stated that the Goku that Cooler fought is strong enough to best at least 50% Freeza. Either that or Cooler is inexplicably wrong by miles for no reason, and doesn't know his own brother's power (unlike King Cold) for no reason, and Goku never bothers correcting him/seems to agree with him (when Cooler said to show him the power capable of killing Freeza, Goku attacks him without even using a visible kaio-ken) for no reason.