Do people here think FUNimation's Z Dub is the worst dub?

[90sDBZ]

I know it's all a matter of taste and opinion but it boggles my mind how how anyone cold prefer Levi over Faulconer. Faulconer might have had some bland music but at least it had some variety and at least it sounded more like actual music. Levi's score just sounds like droning noise that rarely fits even on a superficial level, and any cool sounding melodies that get in are usually drowned out by the dialogue, sound effects etc. I would go as far as to say that the Mark Menza score for GT was more musical.

It boggles my mind that people can hear the same thing but have completely different reactions. I find Faulconer to be far more droning and bland than Levi. Levi's score when Goku arrives to save Nappa is appropriately heroic whereas Faulconer doesn't ever come that close, in my opinion. Then you go as far as to say Menza's score was better than Levi's?

It's like when people talk about how great Nadolny is - how do they not hear how raspy and scratchy her voice is? What about the Krusty the clown laugh and the unnatural inflections in her delivery?

How does everyone not love AC/DC?

I'll never understand the answers to these questions.

Faulconer's score overall had more variety and emotion, I'm sorry but these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQi8Nrxm0o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPio2dPX10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STAQuOkfM4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmU9e67EfmI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woHtuw_xtcc
sound far better then the Levi score (where every track sounds the same) in emotion, composition, placement pretty much every level. And Inb4 whole "you only say that because it's what you grew up with" thing, I've been watching the series with Kikuchi's score since I first got into it yet I would happily watch the series with Faulconer's music if it meant no Levi score.

I agree. I definitely felt that Faulconer's score had more variety and Levy's kind of sounded like a lot of variations of the same thing. Also it was obvious that it was scored by the same guy who scored Power Rangers with some of the same tracks even showing up here and there. Despite all this though I do enjoy Levy's score, just not to the same extent as Faulconer's. I'll say this though and that is that I'd take Levy's score over the Megaman music used in the Westwood dub any day. I did like how it sounded appropriately dark and intense and also heroic at times. Maybe it is just nostalgia but I still like it.

I'm not going to get into an argument over music. I don't like Faulconer's score, and it doesn't pull any emotion out of me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZKrWydwMzw
I find this bit of score beautiful, but maybe that's just me.

I agree with you there. That theme was excellent and always got me excited when Goku arrived to face Nappa and the Ginyu Force.

[ABED]

Faulconer may have changed it up even more than Kikuchi, but I've never been a fan of it. There are a few tracks here and there that I like, but just as many if not more that really bug me, and a lot more that I can't remember because they weren't that good or memorable. Maybe you found them memorable, but I was only speaking for myself.

Tracks that I enjoyed were when Goku turns SS3 and the promo for the Trunks tapes. Tracks I despise are the evil clown music and Bulma's theme.

[TheGreatness25]

I like Faulconer's music, but not the "instruments" used in the music. It sounds cheap. Sounds like he went to a garage sale, bought some pots and pans, a shudder, and a kiddy xylophone (or however you spell it) and went to town. The music ITSELF is good. If it was done with an orchestra, it could have been amazing.

[theoriginalbilis]

I like Faulconer's music, but not the "instruments" used in the music. The music ITSELF is good. If it was done with an orchestra, it could have been amazing.

I agree with you. My biggest problems with Faulconer Productions' compositions are, 1) the practice of filling every second of footage with music (which has been said to be FUNimation's decision anyway), and 2) the instrumentation used (keyboards and synthesizers, etc). I especially can't stand the cliched music used for the "funny/goofy" moments. Ugh.

Faulconer Productions actually came up with some pretty good character/event themes (I like how each villain had their own "theme"), but it seriously lacked the tools/budget/time necessary to make the compositions really "click" and sound suitably epic. There was potential there. I personally feel with a decent-sized orchestra and perhaps a larger budget/less time-restrictions, the Faulconer soundtrack for DBZ could've rivaled Kikuchi and/or Yamamoto.

Though, I will say that the "video game-y" sound of their score worked really well for the GBA games.

[dbzfan7]

I like Faulconer's music, but not the "instruments" used in the music. The music ITSELF is good. If it was done with an orchestra, it could have been amazing.

I agree with you. My biggest problems with Faulconer Productions' compositions are, 1) the practice of filling every second of footage with music (which has been said to be FUNimation's decision anyway), and 2) the instrumentation used (keyboards and synthesizers, etc). I especially can't stand the cliched music used for the "funny/goofy" moments. Ugh.

Faulconer Productions actually came up with some pretty good character/event themes (I like how each villain had their own "theme"), but it seriously lacked the tools/budget/time necessary to make the compositions really "click" and sound suitably epic. There was potential there. I personally feel with a decent-sized orchestra and perhaps a larger budget/less time-restrictions, the Faulconer soundtrack for DBZ could've rivaled Kikuchi and/or Yamamoto.

Though, I will say that the "video game-y" sound of their score worked really well for the GBA games.

I think I like Buu's Fury SSJ3 theme and Super Buu theme over the actual faulconer themes.

[ABED]

While it's hard to give a definitive answer about the quality of Faulconer's music without hearing Faulconer's theme with a full orchestra (or at least a good size), I'm still in favor of not changing the music.

[Kamiccolo9]

I like Faulconer's music, but not the "instruments" used in the music. The music ITSELF is good. If it was done with an orchestra, it could have been amazing.

I agree with you. My biggest problems with Faulconer Productions' compositions are, 1) the practice of filling every second of footage with music (which has been said to be FUNimation's decision anyway), and 2) the instrumentation used (keyboards and synthesizers, etc). I especially can't stand the cliched music used for the "funny/goofy" moments. Ugh.

Faulconer Productions actually came up with some pretty good character/event themes (I like how each villain had their own "theme"), but it seriously lacked the tools/budget/time necessary to make the compositions really "click" and sound suitably epic. There was potential there. I personally feel with a decent-sized orchestra and perhaps a larger budget/less time-restrictions, the Faulconer soundtrack for DBZ could've rivaled Kikuchi and/or Yamamoto.

Though, I will say that the "video game-y" sound of their score worked really well for the GBA games.

I think I like Buu's Fury SSJ3 theme and Super Buu theme over the actual faulconer themes.

I agree. And I also think the Legacy of Goku 2 Super Namek theme is way better than the anime version.

[ABED]

The writing for the broadcast version of Kai is far better and treats the audience with more respect than even the uncut version of Z. I often wonder what the reaction to season 3 had been if pretty much everything else had stayed the same, but they wrote the scripts like they did Kai's.

[Super Sonic]

It was one of those things of who knows? Remember back then, even they weren't sure if they would have a hit on their hands and it was make it or break it for Funimation.

[ABED]

Considering the fact that it was already a hit when it played on Cartoon Network, the only think that would've stopped it from being a hit would've been the low quality of the dub in season 3 (ie green voice actors, cheap box art, bad scripts, cheap sounding music)

[Kakarot88]

Considering the fact that it was already a hit when it played on Cartoon Network, the only think that would've stopped it from being a hit would've been the low quality of the dub in season 3 (ie green voice actors, cheap box art, bad scripts, cheap sounding music)

I often see people say this and am perplexed because season 3 is the entire Freeza fight. Season 3 is what made dragon ball z a success on cartoon network, it was doing well but was not the main show runner for toonami until they ran season 3. By season 3 Schemmel was now Goku and Sabat was Vegeta and Piccolo starting at the 1/2 way point of season 2. Audiences responded cuz they were awesome and for close to 2 years cartoon network ran on loop seasons 1-3 with nothing new until we finally got Garlic Junior on the rising sun Saturday morning line up. I know cuz every time they would restart the series I would die a little inside lol. The heyday of Dragon Ball Z on cartoon network according to Sean Scemmel at Animazement and google was the Cell arc which was in direct relation to season 3's success.

Faulconer's music fits the English language and dub.
The Japanese music fits the Japanese language and dub. English just does not work with that music, listen to the English head cha la for instance. The choice to not use different music in Kai was a mistake because English is just grating with those scores.

[aarondirebear]

Aye, I think giving Buruma a doofy sounding theme is the worst offender. She is supposed to be a genius!

[aarondirebear]

FUNi did do worse than 4 kids. Despite whatever qualms you have with the company, their product never looked or sounded cheap.

You may have liked the Faulconer score, but I can't imagine why anyone would think that's what increased the ratings.

Also a lot seem to speculate that a more accurate dub would have been more successful. I also disagree with this. Kai is much more accurate but no-where near as popular or successful in the US and certainly not in the UK

That's not proof of anything. Kai is a second go around, of course it won't be as popular. It's not new. Also, 10-15 years later, NOTHING is drawing ratings as high as they used to.

Are you honestly arguing that "Krillin's in da house!" and "Mondo cool" and "It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's Goku!" are what made it popular in the states? Your statement about Kai being better acted and written makes it seem like you honestly believe that what kids wanted was surface level "action, action, action" and the only way to convey that was through music. Forget acting and writing, what kids want is music they think fits with non-stop action. As anyone here will tell you, there's a fair bit of filler, and most of it ain't more action. It's typically cutaways to Muten Roshi or Chichi. If kids weren't put off by that, then I don't think the lack of "Rock the Dragon" or a score that didn't scream "non-stop action" would turn them off.

would have been an instant turn-off for the target audience that made up the bulk of success for the show

How do you know this for a fact? Toonami didn't even air the intros so your point is moot. I find it hard to believe the opening song is enough to turn people off completely. Due to time constraints, I imagine, if they had went with Cha La Head Cha La, they would've made a broadcast version of it. Assuming they did still use the Faulconer score, a more accurate dub would've been infinitely better. So many lines are intollerable and not in character at all.

I actually don't have anything against 4Kids. I've always enjoyed their dub of Pokemon and was even one of the very few who enjoyed their One Piece dub(although that was the only version I could see at that time but I'm still grateful to it for introducing me to the show). And yes their voice acting is at least halfway decent at the worst of times. But when you look at the amount of changes they made to One Piece I'd say it outweighs even Saban's changes to DBZ during the Ocean dub. With Pokemon it wasn't really that much of an issue. But DBZ is a violent show like One Piece and would no doubt have had heavier editing than even the Saban Ocean dub of DBZ. And once Funi's in-house dub began edits dropped a great deal to the point where they only cut stuff that was completely necessary, with lots of episodes airing uncut.

And lets not forget that Funimation have always provided an uncut release including the Japanese version ever since they dubbed Ginyu Assault. 4kids on the other hand never even released One Piece uncut and to this day still haven't had a release of Pokemon with the Japanese version included. Now imagine how much worse off we would be if this company was the one that got DBZ. One Piece, as great a show as it is and as huge as it is in Japan, actually initially failed in the US and UK thanks to 4kids treatment of it while DBZ on the other hand was handled by Funi and was a huge success. Thanks to 4kids messing it up One Piece was taken off the air due to low ratings, has only just returned to US TV after Funimation saved it and will probably never return to UK TV.

As for your point about Faulconer, I honestly think it helped the ratings. Well not just Faulconer but the fact that they used a more action-oriented score to begin with so I'd say both Shuki Levy and Faulconer were partially to thank for the ratings. As more mature viewers it's easy to forget the mindset we had as kids and as a kid I can honestly say I would have been put off by hearing Head Cha La and seeing some kid mess around for an episode. Kids were the target audience that made up the shows popularity and I can easily understand how they wouldn't consider Head Cha La to be "cool" but would appreciate Rock the Dragon. No I wouldn't go as far as saying "Krillin's in da house!!" was completely necessary but I can understand why they felt the need to change the score. And as for all of them cheesey lines, that's how most American shows were in the 90s so it's only natural that they wouldn't want the show feeling too different to others as people naturally don't like to give something a chance if it's too different to what they're used to.

And your comment about Kai being a 2nd run. That shouldn't make any difference. It was kids that made DBZ popular back in the day and there are just as many kids these days that are too young to even know about the original DBZ and yet Kai hasn't taken off like Z did. Look at it as a simple experiment. The fact is that this generation was shown Kai while ours was shown Z. Z was successful while Kai wasn't. I'd wager that if the old Z dub had been introduced to the new generation rather than Kai, it'd have been just as successful now as it was then. I can just picture it. Kai comes on, Dragon Soul plays, kid says "this is lame" and changes channel. Now rewind a decade. Z comes on, Rock the Dragon plays, kid says "omg this is epic!". It may seem sad to some but this is just the natural mentality of kids. At least not English speaking kids who aren't used to anime and would rather have a show more like what they're used to.

The uncut is a lie. The subtitles still contain alterations to the dialog, and the dub isn't any different from the cut version either.

[aarondirebear]

One thing I will never get is why people react to the dub, as badly done as it was, like it's an unholy amalgamation of Spec Ops: The Line and A Serbian Film.

Because it is, that's why.

[Ryuji-Otogi]

Faulconer's music fits the English language and dub.
The Japanese music fits the Japanese language and dub. English just does not work with that music, listen to the English head cha la for instance. The choice to not use different music in Kai was a mistake because English is just grating with those scores.

I don't even.....

[VegettoEX]

Folks, half-sentence (Hell, even single-sentence) responses really don't add anything. Just like your mom used to tell you: use your words.

And clean up that mess of a bedroom before you go back outside to play.

[TheMightyOzaru]

He has a point, that music coupled with the English voices does come off as a bit odd. Yamamoto was the best of both worlds but sadly he f***ed up.

[Gaffer Tape]

I often see people say this and am perplexed because season 3 is the entire Freeza fight. Season 3 is what made dragon ball z a success on cartoon network, it was doing well but was not the main show runner for toonami until they ran season 3.

This is very true, and many of the naysayers (myself included) who believed this dub was absolute garbage and thought it would sink DBZ were wrong (at least in regards to the latter part of that statement...). That doesn't mean we still don't think it's a terrible dub. Again, I certainly thought it was at the time (and had nothing then but the first two seasons to compare it to), but I watched it anyway because I was a fan of DBZ. I'd like to think it became popular because of the content and in spite of the very amateurish production values of that time.

By season 3 Schemmel was now Goku and Sabat was Vegeta and Piccolo starting at the 1/2 way point of season 2.

No. Schemmel and Sabat and the rest of the Texas cast started at the beginning of season 3 (well, technically that cast began on the Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle movie released a few months earlier). I'm assuming you're confused because of the rock-stupid decision of the orange bricks to arbitrarily assign season numbers where they didn't belong, thereby placing the first several episodes of season 3 onto the "season 2" boxset.

Audiences responded cuz they were awesome and for close to 2 years cartoon network ran on loop seasons 1-3 with nothing new until we finally got Garlic Junior on the rising sun Saturday morning line up. I know cuz every time they would restart the series I would die a little inside lol.

Also not quite correct. Season 1 originally aired in the '96-'97 broadcast season and season 2 in '97-'98. Toonami picked up those two seasons in September of 1998 and re-ran those for one year until the new season 3 episodes aired in September of 1999. The Garlic Jr. episodes were the last remaining episodes of season 3, and those were held off for only a few months and aired the following spring, thus completing the 1999-2000 broadcast season. Thus, the Freeza part of season 3 had its initial airing, then it was repeated once, then the entire series repeated once, and by around that time, Garlic Jr. aired.

The heyday of Dragon Ball Z on cartoon network according to Sean Scemmel at Animazement and google was the Cell arc which was in direct relation to season 3's success.

Very true. It was successful. It does not necessarily mean it was good. Even Sean Schemmel says it's not very good.

Faulconer's music fits the English language and dub.
The Japanese music fits the Japanese language and dub. English just does not work with that music, listen to the English head cha la for instance. The choice to not use different music in Kai was a mistake because English is just grating with those scores.

It's (ostensibly) the same content. I see no reason why music should work in one language but not in another. Should the iconic Star Wars theme be replaced with Indian sitars in an Indian dub? I think Kai sounds great with the Kikuchi score. And, back in 1999, when I had no idea the music had been changed, I thought the original music sounded amazing when Toonami aired the first two Z movies.

[ABED]

Considering the fact that it was already a hit when it played on Cartoon Network, the only think that would've stopped it from being a hit would've been the low quality of the dub in season 3 (ie green voice actors, cheap box art, bad scripts, cheap sounding music)

I often see people say this and am perplexed because season 3 is the entire Freeza fight. Season 3 is what made dragon ball z a success on cartoon network, it was doing well but was not the main show runner for toonami until they ran season 3. By season 3 Schemmel was now Goku and Sabat was Vegeta and Piccolo starting at the 1/2 way point of season 2. Audiences responded cuz they were awesome and for close to 2 years cartoon network ran on loop seasons 1-3 with nothing new until we finally got Garlic Junior on the rising sun Saturday morning line up. I know cuz every time they would restart the series I would die a little inside lol. The heyday of Dragon Ball Z on cartoon network according to Sean Scemmel at Animazement and google was the Cell arc which was in direct relation to season 3's success.

Faulconer's music fits the English language and dub.
The Japanese music fits the Japanese language and dub. English just does not work with that music, listen to the English head cha la for instance. The choice to not use different music in Kai was a mistake because English is just grating with those scores.

I wasn't arguing whether it was a hit. My point was the only thing that could have stopped it were the things I mentioned. Season 3's success is baffling. I agree that it was DBZ's peak in America but are you implying that it was due to the inexperienced voice actors and bad scripts? If I recall, Dragon Ball hit its peak in Japan around both Freeza and Cell arcs as well. People wanted DBZ, regardless of the quality of the dub. It's baffling that anyone could watch those early episodes and not objectively say that the acting was subpar. Hell, I'm sure even the actors would agree. Sabat is attrocious in those early episodes because he was told to try and sound like Drummond. He fails spectacularly. Only when he starts making the character his own by the end of the Cell arc, and definitely by the Buu arc, does his performance start to reach the quality it does now.

I agree whole heartedly with the above commenter. FUNi's inhouse dub was a success in spite of the changes made to it. Better scripts and not making inexperienced voice actors sound like other actors would've done wonders for the product.

Faulconer's music fit what they did with the show, but Kikuchi's score fits all of Dragon Ball. I completely disagree with your assessment about Kai. I thought the music fit the dub like a glove.

[B]

re: The original score not fitting with the dub... I could see how that opinion might crop up with all the added lines of dialog.