Could Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-ken?

[Kamiccolo9]

It specifically says he gives ki. He doesn't use their own. Since the people he's healing are far stronger than Dende is, where does the ki come from?
And it's said to be an ability. Nothing is mentioned about magic.

It's not a ki ability. It's not science. What else is there? Magic. There you go. You may call it Namek Ability if you want, but from the reader/watcher's point of view it's still magic.

From the reader/watchers point of view anything involving ki is magic. That's not an answer. And if this can be a magical ability, why can't Kaio-Ken?

[Bando]

Dende healed Ultimate Gohan. If Gohan was at the limit of his potential, how would Dende be able to use Gohan's own ki to heal him if he had no hidden ki to draw upon? He brought Gohan back to full strength.
And you didn't answer my question. The definition specifically says that Dende gives his own ki. But when he's healing someone who is much stronger than he is, like Gohan, where does the extra ki come from?

People could make up a million theories explaining this but since it doesn't come from the Daizenshuu it'd be rejected. Now why should I assume the ki comes from no where instead of an unexplained source? Please tell me what's wrong with that.

[Kamiccolo9]

Dende healed Ultimate Gohan. If Gohan was at the limit of his potential, how would Dende be able to use Gohan's own ki to heal him if he had no hidden ki to draw upon? He brought Gohan back to full strength.
And you didn't answer my question. The definition specifically says that Dende gives his own ki. But when he's healing someone who is much stronger than he is, like Gohan, where does the extra ki come from?

People could make up a million theories explaining this but since it doesn't come from the Daizenshuu it'd be rejected. Now why should I assume the ki comes from no where instead of an unexplained source? Please tell me what's wrong with that.

You can assume what you want. I have no problem with that, and it's entirely possible that you're right. Just don't state it as fact and say everyone who disagrees is wrong "because logic." Not that you've done this, but that's what hleV has been doing.

[hleV]

From the reader/watchers point of view anything involving ki is magic. That's not an answer. And if this can be a magical ability, why can't Kaio-Ken?

Have you even read/watched DB? Because in the series ki and magic are addressed to as quite different things. And KK is most definitely not magic.

[Kamiccolo9]

From the reader/watchers point of view anything involving ki is magic. That's not an answer. And if this can be a magical ability, why can't Kaio-Ken?

Have you even read/watched DB? Because in the series ki and magic are addressed to as quite different things. And KK is most definitely not magic.

I can assure you that I am quite familiar with the series, and I'm certain that most of the people I have discussed with on this site would agree with me.
So, Dende's healing is magic, even though nothing suggests it is, because you say so?
And Kaio-Ken is not magic, even though nothing suggests it isn't, because you say so?
The Daizenshuu doesn't list either technique under magic, so it's wrong for one of these, with your logic. And if it contradicts itself, then why bother using it as a source?

[Bando]

You can assume what you want. I have no problem with that, and it's entirely possible that you're right. Just don't state it as fact and say everyone who disagrees is wrong "because logic." Not that you've done this, but that's what hleV has been doing.

Oops. But when did hlev state it as fact? I haven't read the entire debate.

[Kamiccolo9]

You can assume what you want. I have no problem with that, and it's entirely possible that you're right. Just don't state it as fact and say everyone who disagrees is wrong "because logic." Not that you've done this, but that's what hleV has been doing.

I've never stated it as fact.

I know. I said that in my post

[hleV]

So, Dende's healing is magic, even though nothing suggests it is, because you say so?
And Kaio-Ken is not magic, even though nothing suggests it isn't, because you say so?
The Daizenshuu doesn't list either technique under magic, so it's wrong for one of these, with your logic. And if it contradicts itself, then why bother using it as a source?

Dende's healing ability is somewhat magical, because it's not listed as a technique from the ki tree.
Kaio-ken IS listed as a ki technique. It can't be magic because Goku is not a magician.
Daizenshuu lists Dende's healing as an "ability". Feel free to explain what that is, if you don't agree that it's some sort of a Namekian thing. And we know Namekians are magicians of sort, because they can make clothes and Dragonballs.

I describe "ability" as "magic of sort". It may not be classified as magic, but like I said, from reader/watcher's point of view, it should look like magic because it's not a ki technique and it does things that aren't common among even DB characters.

[Kamiccolo9]

So, Dende's healing is magic, even though nothing suggests it is, because you say so?
And Kaio-Ken is not magic, even though nothing suggests it isn't, because you say so?
The Daizenshuu doesn't list either technique under magic, so it's wrong for one of these, with your logic. And if it contradicts itself, then why bother using it as a source?

Dende's healing ability is somewhat magical, because it's not listed as a technique from the ki tree.
Kaio-ken IS listed as a ki technique. It can't be magic because Goku is not a magician.
Daizenshuu lists Dende's healing as an "ability". Feel free to explain what that is, if you don't agree that it's some sort of a Namekian thing. And we know Namekians are magicians of sort, because they can make clothes and Dragonballs.

Kibito also uses it, and he is never seen to be able to perform magic.
It's listed as "ki manipulation" and magic is certainly capable of manipulating ki. Kaio created the Kaio-Ken attack, and he taught the attack to Goku. Kaio is capable of magic, as seen by his being able to materialize stuff, so he could have utilized magic in creating the technique. Goku doesn't have to be a magician to be able to use magical techniques.
When two beings perform the fusion dance, new clothes are formed. Is this magic? If yes, then Goku, not to mention Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta, are capable of performing a magical technique. If not, then the clothes appeared from nowhere. Either one would violate one of your statements.

[hleV]

Kibito also uses it, and he is never seen to be able to perform magic.

Is that an argument? "Never been seen to be able to perform magic"? I fail to see what does this prove.

It's listed as "ki manipulation" and magic is certainly capable of manipulating ki.

There's nothing magical about Kaio-ken. At all. Nothing suggests it is. You say it "might be" magic. The guidebook that classifies KK as just a "ki manipulation" technique surely knows how to hide that information.

Kaio created the Kaio-Ken attack, and he taught the attack to Goku. Kaio is capable of magic, as seen by his being able to materialize stuff, so he could have utilized magic in creating the technique. Goku doesn't have to be a magician to be able to use magical techniques.

So you agree with materialization being magic, but not healing? Kaio said he couldn't master Kaio-ken himself. If he "created" it through magic, he could've just altered it to match his own capabilities. Ki techniques don't simply get "created". Ways are found to do stuff with ki -- those ways become techniques.

When two beings perform the fusion dance, new clothes are formed. Is this magic? If yes, then Goku, not to mention Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta, are capable of performing a magical technique.

I'd say Fusion Dance is more of a ritual. Of sort. Ki manipulation is only needed if two people are of different strengths, but the very fusion is performed through body movements. Ritual is also magic of sort to the viewer/watcher, just like "ability" of Namekians. Perhaps I overdid it by saying that Goku cannot use magic techniques because he's not a magician, but since KK is not a magical technique, this point isn't worth discussing further.

[Kamiccolo9]

Kibito also uses it, and he is never seen to be able to perform magic.

Is that an argument? "Never been seen to be able to perform magic"? I fail to see what does this prove.

It's listed as "ki manipulation" and magic is certainly capable of manipulating ki.

There's nothing magical about Kaio-ken. At all. Nothing suggests it is. You say it "might be" magic. The guidebook that classifies KK as just a "ki manipulation" technique surely knows how to hide that information.

Kaio created the Kaio-Ken attack, and he taught the attack to Goku. Kaio is capable of magic, as seen by his being able to materialize stuff, so he could have utilized magic in creating the technique. Goku doesn't have to be a magician to be able to use magical techniques.

So you agree with materialization being magic, but not healing? Kaio said he couldn't master Kaio-ken himself. If he "created" it through magic, he could've just altered it to match his own capabilities. Ki techniques don't simply get "created". Ways are found to do stuff with ki -- those ways become techniques.

When two beings perform the fusion dance, new clothes are formed. Is this magic? If yes, then Goku, not to mention Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta, are capable of performing a magical technique.

I'd Fusion Dance is more of a ritual. Of sort. Ki manipulation is only needed if two people are of different strengths, but the very fusion is performed through body movements.

He's never seen to be able to perform magic, he's never stated to be able to, and nothing in the supplementary material suggests he can use magic.
According to you, the guidebook is hiding the information that states healing to be a magical technique, so why not?
Again, nothing says healing is magic. If you assume that healing is, then you might as well assume Kaio-Ken is as well, since their is an equal amount of support for both. And you can't do stuff with ki using magic?
So, is the fusion dance magic or not? If it is, then Goku is capable of using a magical technique. It it's not, then clothes are appearing out of nowhere, and the mass from the components of the fusion is gone. If it's not magical, then it establishes a precedent for something appearing out of nothing, the denial of which is the premise for your argument.

[hleV]

He's never seen to be able to perform magic, he's never stated to be able to, and nothing in the supplementary material suggests he can use magic.

His ability to heal suggests he can use magic.

According to you, the guidebook is hiding the information that states healing to be a magical technique, so why not?

I classify "ability" as a form of magic. What about you? What, according to you, is "ability", if not magic? Magic, God abilities, Namekian abilities, Kibito's abilities... they're not related to ki. They make stuff out of nowhere, so it's magic. I don't mean magic, as in Babidi-like magic, I mean magic in general. Doesn't seem like alchemy to me.

Again, nothing says healing is magic. If you assume that healing is, then you might as well assume Kaio-Ken is as well, since their is an equal amount of support for both. And you can't do stuff with ki using magic?

Healing is an ability. KK is a ki manipulation technique. Like I said, I classify "ability" as a sort of magic, just not directly called magic. I have no problem with magic-ki combination. I have a problem with KK being anyhow magical.

So, is the fusion dance magic or not? If it is, then Goku is capable of using a magical technique. It it's not, then clothes are appearing out of nowhere, and the mass from the components of the fusion is gone. If it's not magical, then it establishes a precedent for something appearing out of nothing, the denial of which is the premise for your argument.

Fusion dance is magic of sort (a sort of ritual, the way I see it). Goku is able to use a technique of that "magic of sort".

[Draken]

So Goku can use magic. You're twisting words and viewpoints in order for it to stay with your opinion.

[Kamiccolo9]

Only if you assume his form of healing is magical.

Restoration Arts
First Appearance: Chapter 468
Category: sorcery
People: Majin Buu (good)
Special Characteristics: An art where by firing a beam from his tail-like horn, he heals bodies injured from battle. Not just injuries, but bodies with missing body parts are mended. He acquired this when he absorbed the Dai-Kaioshin. When Babidi was cut in two by Piccolo, he was gravely injured to the point of death, but frightened by Babidi’s threats, Majin Buu (good) restored Babidi’s body.

Restoration Power
First Appearance: Chapter 299
Category: ability
People: Kibito, Dende
Special Characteristics: A technique where one gives ki to bodies that have been injured or whose battle power has dropped from battle, restoring their power. With his dormant power released by Saichourou, Dende gathers the electricity-like ki from his entire body, and emits it from his hands. Kibito uses an ability he got from being born among the people of the Heavenly Realm, restoring people through a kiai that he sends into them (Daizenshuu 4, p. 50)

Buu's healing is directly stated to be magic. Dende and Kibito's form of healing is not. Dende is manipulating his kai to do it, and Kibito is using a kiai. Nothing about magic is said here. Nowhere in the series is it referred to as magic, unlike Buu's. Why wouldn't the Daizenshuu classify it as magic?

What about Tien growing an extra pair of arms? Is that magic? Or the multiform technique. That creates mass that didn't exist before. Is it magic?

Abilities are things that don't fit in the other categories. The Daizenshuu classifies Cell's absorption, the android's analyizing, Buyon's antenna beam, Namekian fusion, Buyon's rubbery skin, and Metal Cooler's auto repair capabilities as "abilities." And that's just the letter "A." Do you consider these magic as well?

If you're willing to accept healing as magic with no basis for it, then there is no reason to assume Kaio-Ken isn't as well. We've established that Goku can perform magical techniques, so if the Kaio-Ken is magical, which is possible, seeing as it was created from a magical being, then Goku would be able to perform it.

[Bussani]

Environment? Food?.. Spirit? I don't really care and can't be bothered to think it up, I simply believe that it comes from somewhere, just like normal real life energy and strength comes from somewhere.

In other words, so long as we call it "somewhere" instead of "nowhere", you're happy? Frankly, it's the same thing to me. Saying "it comes from the spirit" is the same as saying it comes from nowhere, at least as far as energy conservation is concerned. Ki is made up of metaphysical quantities that aren't governed by such laws.

Let me put it this way: imagine you could power a turbine with opinions. You could say the energy comes from opinions, and thus comes from "somewhere", but since there's no rigid energy exchange governing the creation of opinions, that's still energy from "nowhere" as far as physics is concerned.

Just like people assume it comes out of nothingness why do people have such a problem when someone assumes it comes from somewhere?

As demonstrated above, I think we just have different definitions of something coming from nowhere. But I do have problems with, say, the idea that they get their ki from food, because that would mean that a) the food some characters eat must contain enough energy to destroy planets, and b) characters millions of times stronger than other characters would have to eat millions of times more food than them to regain the ki they've used. I know Saiyans eat a lot, but I just don't think it works that way.

And besides, Toriyama himself explained that ki was made up of spiritual forces like courage, true mind, etc., which don't come from food. It is easier to have courage and focus on a full stomach, but that's not quite the same thing.

[hleV]

If you're willing to accept healing as magic with no basis for it, then there is no reason to assume Kaio-Ken isn't as well. We've established that Goku can perform magical techniques, so if the Kaio-Ken is magical, which is possible, seeing as it was created from a magical being, then Goku would be able to perform it.

I can't be bothered to reply to every "so to say" argument, as they're not related to the main thing we're discussing. I'll just get back to KK.

You say that KK was created by Kaio. In the sense that he actually created a technique rather than found a way to use it and given it a name. Is that ever stated in the series or guidebooks? Because it's really awkward when one creates a technique and can't use it. Wouldn't Kaio have altered the technique so he could actually use it?
The way I see it, KK is just another ki-based technique. A way to use ki to amplify one's power. Ki techniques aren't created. Developed/Mastered? Yes. Created. No. Ways to use them are found.
Just like "ability" isn't referred to as magic, "ki manipulation" technique isn't neither. Plus, unlike healing/materialization abilities, KK doesn't, at all, look magical.

So. Is KK being anyhow magical possible? Anything in DB is possible. Is KK being anyhow magical likely? Nothing ever suggests that, so it's pretty safe to assume it's not (unless we ever get a confirmation that it is). THAT's what logic is.

If we're clear here, we can get back to the "what's magic and what's not" sub-discussion.

[Kamiccolo9]

If you're willing to accept healing as magic with no basis for it, then there is no reason to assume Kaio-Ken isn't as well. We've established that Goku can perform magical techniques, so if the Kaio-Ken is magical, which is possible, seeing as it was created from a magical being, then Goku would be able to perform it.

I can't be bothered to reply to every "so to say" argument, as they're not related to the main thing we're discussing. I'll just get back to KK.

You say that KK was created by Kaio. In the sense that he actually created a technique rather than found a way to use it and given it a name. Is that ever stated in the series or guidebooks? Because it's really awkward when one creates a technique and can't use it. Wouldn't Kaio have altered the technique so he could actually use it?
The way I see it, KK is just another ki-based technique. A way to use ki to amplify one's power. Ki techniques aren't created. Developed/Mastered? Yes. Created. No. Ways to use them are found.
Just like "ability" isn't referred to as magic, "ki manipulation" technique isn't neither. Plus, unlike healing/materialization abilities, KK doesn't, at all, look magical.

So. Is KK being anyhow magical possible? Anything in DB is possible. Is KK being anyhow magical likely? Nothing ever suggests that, so it's pretty safe to assume it's not (unless we ever get a confirmation that it is). THAT's what logic is.

If we're clear here, we can get back to the "what's magic and what's not" sub-discussion.

The guidebooks state that he designed it, and the manga said he drew it up up in his dreams.

Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P11.5, P12.1
Context: after catching Bubbles
Kaio: “He really is as great as I’d hoped. He’s gotten used to this planet’s gravity so quickly…And with still 118 days remaining! He may be the one who can master the Kaio-Ken!!! The Kaio-Ken that I drew up in my dreams, but could never master myself!!!! And what’s more, that finishing attack…!!!!”

That, to me, sounds like he created it. And it says he never mastered it, not that he couldn't use it. We see that all the time. Goku was able to use the Kamehameha after seeing it once, but he obviously didn't master the technique at that time.
So now you're saying that healing is magical because it looks magical? What does magic look like? All we know is that Buu's healing was explicitly said to be magical while Dende and Kibito's wasn't.

[Kamiccolo9]

I guess I'll restate the main points of this discussion here, if anyone wants to know without reading through the last few pages.
Can Ultimate Gohan use Kaio-Ken
I think he can.
Kaio-Ken is a technique that amplifies a person's battle power at the cost of stamina and running the risk of injuring one's body.
hleV states that he cannot, since Gohan has reached his full potential, and Kaio-Ken draws on hidden power to amplify one's ki.
My argument is that nothing in the manga, anime, or guidebooks suggests that Kaio-Ken draws on hidden power, so I assume that amplifying one's ki means to multiply the potency of your ki.
hleV says that since something cannot be created from nothing, that this is illogical, and therefore, wrong.
I argue that "logic" doesn't matter in-universe, and that stuff comes from nothing all the time in the DB universe. Such as the clothes and extra power from fusions, Dende and Kibito being able to heal people and restore all of the ki to people vastly stronger than them.
hleV counters that these are magic, and therefore exempt from the "no something from nothing" rule.
I argue that these techniques are never referred to as magic in either the manga, anime, or guidebooks. In fact, Majin Buu's healing abilities are specifically described as magic, while Dende and Kibito's are not.
hleV argues that they obviously are magic because the only way that they could restore beings stronger than themselves would be with magic, since ki cannot come from nothing
Bussani states that ki can come from "nothing" due to it being spiritual, and not bound to physical laws.
hleV disagrees, and says that he believes that it has to come from somewhere, possibly food or the environment.
Bussani disagrees, and list the components of ki, courage, vitality, and true mind. Allowing ki to come from "nowhere."
I bring up Kaio-Ken possibly being a magical attack due to being developed by a magical being. Goku being able to use magical abilities such as fusion (which hleV considers to be magic) is established.
hleV disagrees, and ends by saying that Kaio-Ken doesn't look magical, while healing does.

hleV and Bussani, if I have forgotten anything here, or misquoted or misrepresented you, let me know and I'll change it.

[Bussani]

So. Is KK being anyhow magical possible? Anything in DB is possible. Is KK being anyhow magical likely? Nothing ever suggests that, so it's pretty safe to assume it's not (unless we ever get a confirmation that it is). THAT's what logic is.

If we can't even agree on how ki works to begin with, then any logic applied to it becomes very subjective. Which makes statements like this...

I'm interested in views that are based on logic. Yours isn't.

...a bit nonsensical. These other views can be quite logical depending on how you interpret the fundamentals, and there's no right or wrong way of doing that.

Edit: I'm fine with that, Kamiccolo9. I will re-add that I think Kaio-ken could use the normal reserve of stamina a person has rather than a hidden/dormant power. To use an analogy, tapping into hidden power would be like finding a fuel tank you didn't know you had; using Kaio-ken could simply be using most of your regular fuel tank in one go. No magic or wondering about where ki comes from required, yet still somewhat different from the likes of Super Saiyan.

[hleV]

Chapter: 211 (DBZ 17), P11.5, P12.1
Context: after catching Bubbles
Kaio: “He really is as great as I’d hoped. He’s gotten used to this planet’s gravity so quickly…And with still 118 days remaining! He may be the one who can master the Kaio-Ken!!! The Kaio-Ken that I drew up in my dreams, but could never master myself!!!! And what’s more, that finishing attack…!!!!”

That, to me, sounds like he created it. And it says he never mastered it, not that he couldn't use it. We see that all the time. Goku was able to use the Kamehameha after seeing it once, but he obviously didn't master the technique at that time.

If Kaio can just go and use magic to create techniques, why create one that damages the body? To me it still looks as if Kaio just found a way to manipulate ki in a way that lets one drastically increase their power. And that KK damages the body because the body is not suited to handle that much power (without transforming) -- imagine an IRL person having access to double or triple more of his muscles/brain. They'd just overstress themselves. I apply this kind of logic to ki as well, because some logic is better than none.

So now you're saying that healing is magical because it looks magical? What does magic look like? All we know is that Buu's healing was explicitly said to be magical while Dende and Kibito's wasn't.

Recovering a heavily injured person in seconds doesn't seem anyhow magical to you? From the viewer's perspective, that is. Okay, let's just call it an 'ability' and be done with it. Apparently 'ability' and 'sorcery' are treated as different things in DB.
I see it's also mentioned that Dende uses his ki to recover people through a kiai. His ki. Not ki from nowhere. So somehow Dende's ki is enough to restore someone much stronger than him to full power. I'm positive that's because of Namekians' 'ability' (as it's under that category), which is comparable to magic when it comes to creating things out of nowhere.

Back to "Ultimate" Gohan. He's at his absolute maximum of the time. KK was never used for any SS form (outside of the filler which is not Toriyama-approved material and not accepted by me), and Gohan is a "SS in base form". Conclusion? A maximum as a maximum. If one doesn't have any more power, that's it. If that isn't enough, Gohan can't use KK just like Goku can't use KK as a SS.

EDIT(S):

So Goku can use magic. You're twisting words and viewpoints in order for it to stay with your opinion.

You need start reading posts. I wrote before that I had overdone it by saying that Goku cannot use magical techniques because he's not a magician. Like 'ability' is not in the same category as 'magic', 'fusion' isn't neither. But they all ar somewhat magical, so yea, Goku can at the very least use the fusion one.