Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:29 pm
Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:Vegeta vs Goku
Goku didn't beat Vegeta, Vegeta beat himself by not getting out of the way of a giant falling monkey.
...I was referring to Vegeta as the victor.
Pretty sure that Piccolo was also slightly weaker than second form Freeza.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:30 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:Kamiccolo9 wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:Vegeta vs Goku
Goku didn't beat Vegeta, Vegeta beat himself by not getting out of the way of a giant falling monkey.
...I was referring to Vegeta as the victor.
Oh, you're taking Kaio-Ken into account then. Never mind
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:41 pm
Yep. Goku at kaio-ken x3, by the logic of the fight between Cui and Vegeta, should've been able to quickly end Vegeta. But he didn't. Due to Vegeta being a tough mofo, and the fact that he braced himself, he was able to survive, albeit with injuries. Then he fired a Galick Gun at Earth, forcing Goku to take it head on. His technique proved superior to Goku's, so Goku had to go kaio-ken x4 to repel it. Due to being forced to use it by Vegeta, Goku was almost completely out of energy afterwards. And, due to kind of dodging the blast and again being a tough bastard, Vegeta still survived. Had he not wasted time and energy with the power ball, he could've killed Goku right there. But no, he had to throw a temper tantrum because he was bleeding.
Also, according to Kaboom:
New info I’ve stumbled upon in the DBZ Dragon Books suggest Dabra is weaker than Gohan, but still at an advantage in battle because of how out-of-practice Gohan was
Last edited by
RandomGuy96 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:46 pm
Mjb1985 wrote:Kibito is a bumbler and that's why he was killed by Dabura. Sensed Ssj2 Gohan's massive power and is too arrogant to think Gohan could possibly lift the Zeta Sword. Kaioshin's many ki sensing failures. Etc etc.
Strength is not that big of a factor in fighting.
Base Gohan is also a bumbler in such a situation... your point is? According to legend none of the Kaioshin could budge the Z-Sword, does Kibito know how powerful some of the other Kaioshin were? No. It's pretty easy to write off SSJ2 Gohan when past generations should be much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. What does Kaioshin have to do with Kibito being weak? The Daizenshuu said Kibito posses the ability to give base Gohan a good fight. He is no weakling.
Draken wrote:When has the stronger fighter ever lost...? Grade 3 Trunks doesn't count.
Cell was still stronger anyway, he was just messing with Trunks
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Last edited by
TheMightyOzaru on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Kid Buu
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by Kid Buu » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:46 pm
Krillin would have beaten Nappa had Vegeta not intervened.
2nd Form Cell would have beaten SS2 Gohan had Goku not intervened, as Cell would regenerate from the selfdestruct.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:48 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:Vegeta vs Goku
What time frame?
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:51 pm
I thought I already made it clear that I meant the first one.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:01 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:I thought I already made it clear that I meant the first one.
I just saw your post that said Vegeta vs Goku, it doesn't specify. If you are referring to their first encounter had Gohan and Krillin stayed behind; Vegeta would certainly win.
Last edited by
TheMightyOzaru on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:06 pm
My post right after that does.
Yep. Goku at kaio-ken x3, by the logic of the fight between Cui and Vegeta, should've been able to quickly end Vegeta. But he didn't. Due to Vegeta being a tough mofo, and the fact that he braced himself, he was able to survive, albeit with injuries. Then he fired a Galick Gun at Earth, forcing Goku to take it head on. His technique proved superior to Goku's, so Goku had to go kaio-ken x4 to repel it. Due to being forced to use it by Vegeta, Goku was almost completely out of energy afterwards. And, due to kind of dodging the blast and again being a tough bastard, Vegeta still survived. Had he not wasted time and energy with the power ball, he could've killed Goku right there. But no, he had to throw a temper tantrum because he was bleeding.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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hleV
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by hleV » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:13 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:Then he fired a Galick Gun at Earth, forcing Goku to take it head on. His technique proved superior to Goku's, so Goku had to go kaio-ken x4 to repel it.
Apparently while using KK, which amplifies Goku's power, his Kamehameha couldn't amplify his power any further. So Goku may've been at 24,000 with KKx3, but Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho may've pushed his original 18,000 to around 24,000
If both Vegeta and Goku were at the same level of strength, I can easily see their respective attacks beings on par with each other, even with power amplification taken into account. Though I believe (might be wrong, not sure if it's in the manga) Raditz was surprised how Goku/Piccolo were able to increase their BP through energy attacks, so Vegeta's Gyarik-Ho may've simply been a better technique than Goku's Kamehameha.
Sorry if it has nothing to do with anything, I didn't bother to read what the current sub-discussion is really about.
Last edited by
hleV on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:15 pm
Show me evidence that you can't amplify your power any further when using kaio-ken.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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hleV
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by hleV » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:17 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:Show me evidence that you can't amplify your power any further when using kaio-ken.
Goku's BP during his KK Kamehameha.
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:20 pm
...so show it me.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Draken
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by Draken » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:01 pm
Rocketman wrote:Draken wrote:When has the stronger fighter ever lost...? Grade 3 Trunks doesn't count.
Why not?
Because he wasn't balanced stronger. He had strength and nothing else. He especially did not have brain. It's like saying a guy with a power level of 90 who pumps everything into strength who then fights a guy with a PL of 80 who was balanced and could forever dodge him counts when the guy with 90 could have easily won if he didn't pump it all into strength and kept speed.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:08 pm
RandomGuy96 wrote:Show me evidence that you can't amplify your power any further when using kaio-ken.
Goku's Kaioken x3 Kamehameha and Goku's Kaioken x20 Kamehameha. The Daizenshuu's have there blasts equal to their power output while using Kaioken. My theory as to why this is the case is the Kaioken multiplier exceeds the Kamehameha multiplier so it's not incorporated. In other words Kamehameha and Kaioken can't be stacked.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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Godo
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by Godo » Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:19 am
I have one!
Goku SSJ3 (beginning of the Buu arc) vs. Goku SSJ3 (end of Buu arc).
Go!
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:32 am
Godo wrote:I have one!
Goku SSJ3 (beginning of the Buu arc) vs. Goku SSJ3 (end of Buu arc).
Go!
Goku at the beginning. He doesn't have to worry about the stamina drain, so after a few minutes of hard fighting, he takes this pretty easily.
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TheMightyOzaru
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by TheMightyOzaru » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:32 am
Godo wrote:I have one!
Goku SSJ3 (beginning of the Buu arc) vs. Goku SSJ3 (end of Buu arc).
Go!
tie...
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Godo wrote:I have one!
Goku SSJ3 (beginning of the Buu arc) vs. Goku SSJ3 (end of Buu arc).
Go!
Goku at the beginning. He doesn't have to worry about the stamina drain, so after a few minutes of hard fighting, he takes this pretty easily.
If he is fighting in the living realm, he is still has the time limit against him.
Last edited by
TheMightyOzaru on Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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RandomGuy96
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by RandomGuy96 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:33 am
Goku stomps.
The Monkey King wrote:RandomGuy96 wrote:dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:34 am
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Godo wrote:I have one!
Goku SSJ3 (beginning of the Buu arc) vs. Goku SSJ3 (end of Buu arc).
Go!
tie...
At the beginning of the arc Goku was dead, so he could stay in SSJ3 a lot longer than he could in a living body. So he'd be able to outlast end of Buu Arc Goku, who was alive, and couldn't stay in SSJ3 very long.
